LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

hiagain

How much water would you say would be used for an extra shower every two days (considering the gym membership)? What would you say 50/60% would amount to in litres?

The devils

freddyuk wrote: »

Well to put it in perspective for the same money you can run your immersion heater for one hour each day of the year and it will cost you €4,500 less! If you wanted to run your immersion heater for 2 hours each day it would cost you €400 each year and again zero investment. You can probably work out the rest of the math yourself.
If you had a solar panel heating 250L it would likely cost next to nothing (once installed) for 2/3 of the year but you can still top it up with an hour a day immersion for €0.55 per day if required but the water is already guaranteed to be warm from solar thus it will not need much boost. You can reckon the solar will run for years at virtually no cost if looked after. Your Thermodynamic will cost you every day and subject to inflation each year. Lifetime of a heat pump??? Who knows but they are not likely to be repairable.

Freddy - we had immersion heater on 80/90 litre tank and seemed like it was always on. Bill now are a lot better.

I paid alot less than 4500 euro for system+ installation.

When I got price from 3 solar installers they even said that a larger top up of heatfrom aanother source would be required. And also solar panel would require pump for circulation.

One other thing I have priced a replacement heat pump for the system at the beginning. .think it was approx 100 $.
Cheers

shane 007

hiagain wrote: »

How much water would you say would be used for an extra shower every two days (considering the gym membership)? What would you say 50/60% would amount to in litres?

It really depends on the shower flow rate & the desired temperature of the water coming out of the shower.
For example, many showers, like ones in hotels, have a button that you have to press to bring above a set temperature. That setting is 38C. So many people think you have to have temps of 60C but in reality you wouldn't stand under 45C. The reason for higher is anti-legionnaires.

So usually power showers have flow rate of approx 15 litres/minute. Therefore a 10 minute shower would be 150 litres of mixed water. Also the shower would not be generally running for full 10 minutes. I would say average shower hot water usually from a standard power shower would be in the region of 35 - 50 litres.

So if your family was similar to mine using 160 litres per day, you would have to use your back up source to heat approx 65 - 80 litres for an average Irish summer day.

freddyuk

The devils wrote: »

Freddy - we had immersion heater on 80/90 litre tank and seemed like it was always on. Bill now are a lot better.

I paid alot less than 4500 euro for system+ installation.

When I got price from 3 solar installers they even said that a larger top up of heatfrom aanother source would be required. And also solar panel would require pump for circulation.

One other thing I have priced a replacement heat pump for the system at the beginning. .think it was approx 100 $.
Cheers

You did it right getting 3 quotes. Not sure what a replacement heat pump would be for one of these but $100 sounds wrong to me including installation(and removal).

I posted elsewhere about the solar pump as the cost is tiny over a year. I did experiment last week with a small solar panel running a pump set and it works fine with a small inverter so in fact you would not need any grid power for this. Remember the pump only runs when the sun is out. The controller needs to switch off at night though.

The point about solar thermal is your water is not being heated from 10c if you have a proper buffer tank it is sitting there at about 30-35c on the bad days so you need to raise it only 20c. Each system is different as it will be set and used differently but I know I have free base power for ever and can tweak the system to suit my usage. We are all a bit biased to what we have installed of course but having the bulk of water heated for "free" and then topped up by WBS or Immersion or Oil works well as it is seasonally adjustable.

The devils

freddyuk wrote: »

You did it right getting 3 quotes. Not sure what a replacement heat pump would be for one of these but $100 sounds wrong to me including installation(and removal).

I posted elsewhere about the solar pump as the cost is tiny over a year. I did experiment last week with a small solar panel running a pump set and it works fine with a small inverter so in fact you would not need any grid power for this. Remember the pump only runs when the sun is out. The controller needs to switch off at night though.

The point about solar thermal is your water is not being heated from 10c if you have a proper buffer tank it is sitting there at about 30-35c on the bad days so you need to raise it only 20c. Each system is different as it will be set and used differently but I know I have free base power for ever and can tweak the system to suit my usage. We are all a bit biased to what we have installed of course but having the bulk of water heated for "free" and then topped up by WBS or Immersion or Oil works well as it is seasonally adjustable.

Freddy I think it was a danfoss pump and I would replace it myself, however I would have to get refrigerator gas recharged so that would be an additional cost.

John T Carroll

shane 007 wrote: »

It really depends on the shower flow rate & the desired temperature of the water coming out of the shower.
For example, many showers, like ones in hotels, have a button that you have to press to bring above a set temperature. That setting is 38C. So many people think you have to have temps of 60C but in reality you wouldn't stand under 45C. The reason for higher is anti-legionnaires.

So usually power showers have flow rate of approx 15 litres/minute. Therefore a 10 minute shower would be 150 litres of mixed water. Also the shower would not be generally running for full 10 minutes. I would say average shower hot water usually from a standard power shower would be in the region of 35 - 50 litres.

So if your family was similar to mine using 160 litres per day, you would have to use your back up source to heat approx 65 - 80 litres for an average Irish summer day.

The attached S.Sheet might give some idea of the topping up required, one may or may not agree with the E.Tube "factor" of 1.4 but at least it should give some idea of the solar contribution.

shane 007

John T Carroll wrote: »

The attached S.Sheet might give some idea of the topping up required, one may or may not agree with the E.Tube "factor" of 1.4 but at least it should give some idea of the solar contribution.

Why is there many days of zero & many equally at 1.89kwh?

John T Carroll

shane 007 wrote: »

Why is there many days of zero & many equally at 1.89kwh?

The "1.89" number is averaged from the accumulated number over the nine or ten days that I was abroad as I had no one to take the daily readings. The zeros are the days on which I had no output whatsoever, I think they amounted to a total of 55 days last year, obviously, evacuated tubes would have given some output on a lot of those days, one of their many attributes.

John T Carroll

I would certainly agree that auxiliary heating needs to be available during the whole season due to the vagaries of Irish weather. I use a top mounted 2.5 KW Immersion Heater which heats the top 30 litres to 60C. I also use an oil fired coil with a motorized valve. I use(ed) the Immersion exclusively from (in last years case) May 1st to Sept 31st, the electrical consumption for this 153 day period was a measured 243 Kwh which averages out at almost 1.6 Kwh/day. I had the immersion switching in from 0900 to 1800 each weekday during this period. However, during that same period the solar output was 656 Kwh which reflects a direct electrical saving of around the same. I have always thought of any solar domestic hot water system as a very useful Pre Heater for any Auxiliary heating system.

shane 007

Do you know the volume of hot water that is directly taken from the cylinder, on average, or even number of daily users?

John T Carroll

shane 007 wrote: »

Do you know the volume of hot water that is directly taken from the cylinder, on average, or even number of daily users?

80 to 90 Litres/weekday at 60C and approx. 20 to 30 litres per weekend day as nobody around.

handsorace

freddyuk wrote: »

Thanks I am trying to get the facts! Now we have more information than before. I was under the impression your unit was all in one. Are you saying you can replace just the heat pump if it fails and not the cylinder? Can you check with supplier and get a cost for replacement notwithstanding any guarantee.
I apologise I forgot you had a washing machine also but the flow meter would help us gauge the amount of water being used. You seem to be using a lot from what you have said.
All good information.

I'm contemplating installing a Thermodynamic hot water system possibly from LVP & they inform me that the warranty on the heat pump has been reduced from 5 years to 3 years (I wonder why)? but also inform that a replacement will cost €500 fitted

shane 007

handsorace wrote: »

I'm contemplating installing a Thermodynamic hot water system possibly from LVP & they inform me that the warranty on the heat pump has been reduced from 5 years to 3 years (I wonder why)? but also inform that a replacement will cost €500 fitted

I don't know about the LVP but the Ariston compressor is €200, plus R134a plus labour & VAT, so €500 would be within the realms of a replacement cost. Ariston is still 5 year warranty but I wouldn't know why LVP have reduced theirs.

handsorace

Hi shane 007 Apparently the manufacturers have reduced the warranty & LVP are just passing this to new customers . € 500 is fully charged withR134a & is an all in price!! My point being they must be causing problems within the former 5 year warranty for them to reduce it , although LVP inform me that nothing has changed regarding the compressor & should be good for 25+ years???

freddyuk

Warranty will be insured so it could be cost driven by the insurers who may have uncovered issues with the units. Or possibly the insurers have walked away and the company is self insuring for 3 years (but not 5). Have they amended the small print in the warranty document? Worth looking through carefully - if you have such a document.
A solar thermal system has a pump that may fail (unlikely as it is not stressed but cheap to replace) and if tubes are used these cost very little to replace so no real concerns over long term viability. Same immersion back up (as a LVP) is used in summer with same potential element failure but again this is rare and easy to replace on a standard cylinder.

shane 007

freddyuk wrote: »

Warranty will be insured so it could be cost driven by the insurers who may have uncovered issues with the units. Or possibly the insurers have walked away and the company is self insuring for 3 years (but not 5). Have they amended the small print in the warranty document? Worth looking through carefully - if you have such a document.
A solar thermal system has a pump that may fail (unlikely as it is not stressed but cheap to replace) and if tubes are used these cost very little to replace so no real concerns over long term viability. Same immersion back up (as a LVP) is used in summer with same potential element failure but again this is rare and easy to replace on a standard cylinder.

I know of no manufacturer that pays insurance to cover their warranty work.
Firstly, I wouldn't think insurance companies would offer that economically as it could be open to abuse & many claims.
Secondly, nearly all appliances/units are composed of many different components that are made from as many manufacturers & thus would be warranted by the individual manufacturer of that component.
For example, many gas boiler manufacturers would only manufacturer only a very small portion of that boiler & just are the boiler designer & assembler. The heat exchanger would be bought in as would the gas valve, burner, flue, PCB, etc. they just design the layout & functionality of the boiler & only assemble. Each failed component would be returned to the respective manufacturer of that component & credited. The cost would be the service engineer's time to replace & that would not be insurable.

I would rather think the drop from 5 years to 3 years warranty is down to them most likely changing the supplier of the compressor to a cheaper alternative & that supplier only offers a 3 year warranty. Nowadays, it is all down to cost.

freddyuk

Any large manufacturer will have balance sheet protection in place. If they have a problem with a component they are not going to rely on some obscure parts manufacturer to protect their brand and reputation around the world! They will claim on an insurance and then let the insurers subrogate against the supplier if they think it is financially viable.
The warranty conditions are deliberately tight to keep claims down and avoid fraud but if there is a massive problem with a product insurance will come into play either as Product liability or Warranty protection or other instrument to avoid losses which could damage the company and shareholders. If there is no insurance in force then the company is gambling on having no major issues (self insured). If LVP are getting their kit from the far east I doubt they are going to rely on the manufacturer to protect their whole business if they get a lot of claims, although they could be.
If a car manufacturer has a recall of 1 million cars they will not be going to the component suppliers looking for some compensation they will claim on their recall / product liability insurance before their reputation is ruined.
It is a murky world so hard to check but I assure you there are things insured you would not believe. Insurance is not just about accident and claim it is also a financial instrument to facilitate and protect an investment.

shane 007

I disagree. I do warranty work for a few manufacturers & they do not operate as you describe. There are only a handful of component manufacturers globally for the various components. I know of one where they switched from Italy to China, there was huge number of failures & they had to switch back with their tail between their legs. It ended up costing them a fortune in cost & a lot of reputation damage. They are one of the biggest players globally & there was no insurance in place.

The devils

handsorace wrote: »

I'm contemplating installing a Thermodynamic hot water system possibly from LVP & they inform me that the warranty on the heat pump has been reduced from 5 years to 3 years (I wonder why)? but also inform that a replacement will cost €500 fitted

Handsorace,
As I said to freddyuk previously, I think. I recall getting price for new pump approx 100 euro or sterling can't remember and the gas was 150 euro(that was the recharging cost by engineer).The only reason I looked into this was due to the company installing it...they forgot to tighten one of the nuts and the gas leaked out. So I therefore panicked and looked what the cost of replacements may possible be...in the end compressor was fine but needed approx 600 Gramms of gas.

shane 007

The devils wrote: »

Handsorace,
As I said to freddyuk previously, I think. I recall getting price for new pump approx 100 euro or sterling can't remember and the gas was 150 euro(that was the recharging cost by engineer).The only reason I looked into this was due to the company installing it...they forgot to tighten one of the nuts and the gas leaked out. So I therefore panicked and looked what the cost of replacements may possible be...in the end compressor was fine but needed approx 600 Gramms of gas.

Did they not soundness test the system before admitting the R134a? Do you realise how dangerous that gas is? It's akin to mustard gas which in confined spaces such as where cylinders are kept can be lethal.
I understand accidents happen but there are certain tests/procedures that must be adhered to when dealing with volatile substances such as R134a. It's like me fitting a gas boiler but not bothering to soundness test my pipework before admitting gas.

Tommyboy08

shane 007 wrote: »

Did they not soundness test the system before admitting the R134a? Do you realise how dangerous that gas is? It's akin to mustard gas which in confined spaces such as where cylinders are kept can be lethal.
I understand accidents happen but there are certain tests/procedures that must be adhered to when dealing with volatile substances such as R134a. It's like me fitting a gas boiler but not bothering to soundness test my pipework before admitting gas.

Don't worry shane, 600grams of R134a is about as dangerous as a mouse fart unless you open the pipe directly into your mouth,
But your right about the pressure test before they let the gas into the system

The devils

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Don't worry shane, 600grams of R134a is about as dangerous as a mouse fart unless you open the pipe directly into your mouth,
But your right about the pressure test before they let the gas into the system

Guys it's a long story.
The gas has very low toxicity.
I believe in the UK a refrigeration engineer must charge, vacuum test, nitrogen purge. ..etc. but this is not the case here. Anyway I got it all sorted now.
Like I said its a long story. .

shane 007

The devils wrote: »

Guys it's a long story.
The gas has very low toxicity.
I believe in the UK a refrigeration engineer must charge, vacuum test, nitrogen purge. ..etc. but this is not the case here. Anyway I got it all sorted now.
Like I said its a long story. .

I think you will find that information is incorrect.
Anybody working with refrigerant gas in Ireland, by law, must hold their F-Gas Certification. That has been the case for a number of years now, so if your installer was unqualified/uncertified, then I'm afraid I would also be questioning every part of the installation.

The devils

shane 007 wrote: »

I think you will find that information is incorrect.
Anybody working with refrigerant gas in Ireland, by law, must hold their F-Gas Certification. That has been the case for a number of years now, so if your installer was unqualified/uncertified, then I'm afraid I would also be questioning every part of the installation.

Shane the installers obviously where not refrigeration engineers. Sure I was told that the installers from lvp also are not refrigeration engineers.
When you say you would question every part of the installation..don't bother the installation is sound. It was certified the very next day by a gas certified installer.
Its a very simple installation in fact.
Good luck

dathi

The devils wrote: »

Shane the installers obviously where not refrigeration engineers. Sure I was told that the installers from lvp also are not refrigeration engineers.

really inspires confidence in the product when the installers are not properly qualified . would be a bit like me sticking up a gas boiler and asking shane to come see did i do it right.

The devils

dathi wrote: »

really inspires confidence in the product when the installers are not properly qualified . would be a bit like me sticking up a gas boiler and asking shane to come see did i do it right.

Not sure about that ?? But even if you did so what. Have you never put a new tyre on a bicycle before or would simply go to halfords or the like ?
Let's be honest alot of this installation is simple. I personally assessed what needed to be done and did it more economically.
Now can we get back to unit itself ?

Condenser

The devils wrote: »

Guys it's a long story.
The gas has very low toxicity.
I believe in the UK a refrigeration engineer must charge, vacuum test, nitrogen purge. ..etc. but this is not the case here. Anyway I got it all sorted now.
Like I said its a long story. .

It is the case here, same as all over Europe. Its illegal to fill a refrigeration system without confirming its integrity first

The devils

Condenser wrote: »

It is the case here, same as all over Europe. Its illegal to fill a refrigeration system without confirming its integrity first

Mine came pre charged, but leaked. Then I got a certified refrigeration engineer to replace the necessary gas required.

The devils

Condenser wrote: »

It is the case here, same as all over Europe. Its illegal to fill a refrigeration system without confirming its integrity first

Mine came pre charged, but leaked. Then I got a certified refrigeration engineer to replace the necessary gas required.

Condenser

The devils wrote: »

Mine came pre charged, but leaked. Then I got a certified refrigeration engineer to replace the necessary gas required.

I was just responding to your statement that certain things were necessary for a refrigeration engineer in the UK but aren't required here.