M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

guylikeme

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Indeed - but not so sure that education isn't needed; the driving test doesn't involve motorway driving.

I hear this alot and the next point is never considered. Aren't Learners banned from Motorways legally? Even if they have an accompanied licensed person.

my friend

guylikeme wrote: »

I hear this alot and the next point is never considered. Aren't Learners banned from Motorways legally? Even if they have an accompanied licensed person.

There should be a post pass driving test motor way module requiring an exam

Also re m'way widenings, any widenings will result in Tolls to cover costs

L1011

my friend wrote: »

Also re m'way widenings, any widenings will result in Tolls to cover costs

Hasn't happened on the M1, or the bulk of the M50; its not going to happen on the M7 or M4 either.

hardCopy

guylikeme wrote: »

I hear this alot and the next point is never considered. Aren't Learners banned from Motorways legally? Even if they have an accompanied licensed person.

my friend wrote: »

There should be a post pass driving test motor way module requiring an exam

Also re m'way widenings, any widenings will result in Tolls to cover costs

Once you have done your test you get "N" plates. You should have to do a motorway test before you can remove your "N"s.

my friend

L1011 wrote: »

Hasn't happened on the M1, or the bulk of the M50; its not going to happen on the M7 or M4 either.

The large steel gantrys that were built over the M50 and @ M junctions during the upgrade aren't just for signs...

They are designed to accommodate toll reading equipment and easy service of same

L1011

my friend wrote: »

The large steel gantrys that were built over the M50 and @ M junctions during the upgrade aren't just for signs...

They are designed to accommodate toll reading equipment and easy service of same

No, they were built for variable speed limit control equipment. The tolling gantries are of a completely different design.

L1011

my friend wrote: »

ha!

This from the guy that thinks there's no Toll on the M4

The toll on the M4 does not cover the section being proposed for widening

Do you have the vaguest clue what you're talking about?

I take your stealth deletion as an admission that you don't.

my friend

L1011 wrote: »

The toll on the M4 does not cover the section being proposed for widening

Do you have the vaguest clue what you're talking about?

I take your stealth deletion as an admission that you don't.

I don't know where my post went, any ways I suggest you familiarise with this

http://www.tii.ie/news/press-releases/m50-demand-management-stu/M50-Demand-Management-Study.pdf

You will be tolled, you mightn't like it but it's only fair.

L1011

my friend wrote: »

I don't know where my post went, any ways I suggest you familiarise with this

http://www.tii.ie/news/press-releases/m50-demand-management-stu/M50-Demand-Management-Study.pdf

You will be tolled, you mightn't like it but it's only fair.

A study I'm already fully aware of, which has nothing to do with the gantries as you claimed, nothing to do with the widening as you claimed - being many years later than both - and is not guaranteed to happen.

Now, on to your claim you're now saying you didn't delete that the section of M4 to be widened has a toll...

You appear to have rather run away with yourself thinking suggestions are facts and making giant leaps of guesswork.

The "fair" argument for tolling the entire M50 is gibberish usually solely spouted by D15 residents sore at their choice to live beside the Westlink and wanting to effective punish others for not having caused the need to buy out the Roches, but I'm not getting in to that with someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals yet.

gilly0512

We're all going way off topic here, anyone know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel and when we might finally get a start date for this project? Prior to the government giving the green light for this project, we were led to believe that this project had already passed the planning stages, and was just awaiting funding, so I'm not entirely sure as to why it's status on the TII website (formerly NRA) is showing as 'Planning'? I have queried this with TII (Transport Infrastructure Ireland), so I'll see if they get back to me with a plausible answer.

my friend

L1011 wrote: »

A study I'm already fully aware of, which has nothing to do with the gantries as you claimed, nothing to do with the widening as you claimed - being many years later than both - and is not guaranteed to happen.

Now, on to your claim you're now saying you didn't delete that the section of M4 to be widened has a toll...

You appear to have rather run away with yourself thinking suggestions are facts and making giant leaps of guesswork.

The "fair" argument for tolling the entire M50 is gibberish usually solely spouted by D15 residents sore at their choice to live beside the Westlink and wanting to effective punish others for not having caused the need to buy out the Roches, but I'm not getting in to that with someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals yet.

Wow, so many thoughts and poor ones at that.

Get over yourself, the cage gantrys as installed were designed for future toll reading equipment, it can be installed tomorrow if the authorities so deigned.

They now exist at almost all motorway X m50 connections and are intermittent along the M50

Tolling for use / congestion etc will have to be addressed in the lifetime of the next government and action will result in increased tolling

Too many commuters not paying while others making similar distance journeys can pay up to 3 per day each way

You might not like the hard truths I've posted on these matters but the fact is PPP (the way any widening will be funded) has to be repaid and the exchequer can't be the source due to budget / gov accounting

Increased Tolling is in your future and I'm certain the people of D15 really aren't so bitter as you imagine

gilly0512

my friend wrote: »

Wow, so many thoughts and poor ones at that.

Get over yourself, the cage gantrys as installed were designed for future toll reading equipment, it can be installed tomorrow if the authorities so deigned.

They now exist at almost all motorway X m50 connections and are intermittent along the M50

Tolling for use / congestion etc will have to be addressed in the lifetime of the next government and action will result in increased tolling

Too many commuters not paying while others making similar distance journeys can pay up to 3 per day each way

You might not like the hard truths I've posted on these matters but the fact is PPP (the way any widening will be funded) has to be repaid and the exchequer can't be the source due to budget / gov accounting

Increased Tolling is in your future and I'm certain the people of D15 really aren't so bitter as you imagine

I couldn't disagree more, Irish motorists already pay the highest amount of taxes in Europe when one considers VRT, excise duty, fuel duty, VAT and road tax. It is estimated that when all of those different forms of taxes are taken into account, Irish motorists are paying the guts of 4 billion Euro a year. What do we get for that one has to ask, we finally have a proper motorway network after years of driving around on second rate single lane roads, but when one considers how much Irish motorists already pay in the aforementioned taxes, I don't think we should be tolled at all. Most people wouldn't have a problem with paying tolls for special projects such as the tunnels in Dublin, Cork and Limerick, but why should we pay to drive on roads such as the M50 etc, when they should have been built in the first place and a long time ago with all of the money contributed by motorists, and are economic necessities. Motorists have always been fleeced in this country by successive governments, they would be seen as an easy target, although based on the fact that there are already two tolls on the M7, I would be surprised if they put in another one between Naas & Newbridge, although nothinig would surprise me either, considering we are governed by idiots. Finally if you look at our nearest neighbour, in the whole of the UK there are only four tolls, namely the Severn Bridges in Wales, the M6 toll road and the Dartford Crossing, and road tax has always been way cheaper in the UK, not to mention that they've had motorways since the 1960s.

guylikeme

Laughing quietly....

L1011

my friend wrote: »

Get over yourself, the cage gantrys as installed were designed for future toll reading equipment, it can be installed tomorrow if the authorities so deigned.

The are clearly variable speed limit gantries, and have been there since the widening - no "now" about it. If you don't know what a VSL gantry looks like, take a Streetview trip down the UK M25/M40/M42 then compare to the empty gantries on the M50 and constrast, hugely, to the tolling gantries on the Westlink.

You providing a link from nearly half a decade later as support doesn't change what they are.

my friend wrote: »

You might not like the hard truths I've posted on these matters but the fact is PPP (the way any widening will be funded) has to be repaid and the exchequer can't be the source due to budget / gov accounting

Increased Tolling is in your future and I'm certain the people of D15 really aren't so bitter as you imagine

Jumping to conclusions does not make "hard truths", and your knowledge of the facts is appalling bad. The M1 widening was not funded by a PPP. The M7 widening clearly won't be funded by a PPP. There are PPPs with no tolls.

You misinterpreted some long standing gantries, added 2+2 and got a toll bill.

ItHurtsWhenIP

gilly2308 wrote: »

...
although based on the fact that there are already two tolls on the M7
...

I don't want to get in between ye ... but there's only one toll on the M7.

gilly0512

MMFITWGDV wrote: »

I don't want to get in between ye ... but there's only one toll on the M7.

S**t you're right, I forgot that the two tolls are on the M8 with one on the M7 just after Portlaoise, maybe they will put in another toll on the M7 now

guylikeme

gilly2308 wrote: »

S**t you're right, I forgot that the two tolls are on the M8 with one on the M7 just after Portlaoise, maybe they will put in another toll on the M7 now

'They' won't. No road, exception of watergrasshill bypass(after it incorporated fermoy) has ever been retrospectively tolled in this country

The m50 may be further as a congestion measure but other roads have no form for this, not least after they get widened. Without public transport alternatives it won't happen

Sam Russell

Well the Naas bypass was originally meant to be tolled but the then Gov chickened out.

Schadenfreudia

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well the Naas bypass was originally meant to be tolled but the then Gov chickened out.

Thankfully. The idea of tolling an 8km stretch of very basic Motorway in the middle of a third world road network was bizarre.

Just as tolling the M50 just after the current Regime has scrapped nearly all the major public transport projects is equally bizarre.

Sam Russell

MOD: This topic is supposed to be about the need for widening the M7 - presumably from Nass to the M9 junction.

It is not about crazy driving or tolling of the M50, although tolling of the M7 could be.

If you want to start a thread to discuss this type of stuff you can.

It is not acceptable for posters to attack other posters.

Any off topic posts will be deleted.

gilly0512

gilly2308 wrote: »

We're all going way off topic here, anyone know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel and when we might finally get a start date for this project? Prior to the government giving the green light for this project, we were led to believe that this project had already passed the planning stages, and was just awaiting funding, so I'm not entirely sure as to why it's status on the TII website (formerly NRA) is showing as 'Planning'? I have queried this with TII (Transport Infrastructure Ireland), so I'll see if they get back to me with a plausible answer.

Folks I give up on this country, I just got an e-mail back from TII, and they don't expect construction to commence on this project until 2018. This is nothing short of a joke, considering this project already has planning permission granted, so best case scenario we're looking at 2020!! This is not a major feat of architecture that they're building here, it's an extra lane in each direction for 12k, and yet in this joke a country it will probably take them a minimum of two years to build, I give up!!

"Thank you for your email of 24 November 2015 regarding the above.

The ICI 2016-2021 investment programme, which was announced by Government recently, identifies a number of key projects in the roads programme which will support continued economic growth and efficiency.

The Naas Newbridge Upgrade Scheme was highlighted as a key investment priority because it will offer substantial economic returns once the existing bottleneck is removed along the M7 corridor. Transport infrastructure Ireland (TII) is awaiting confirmation of funding from the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport and once funding is in place, it is anticipated that construction could commence in 2018".

You know I am really glad to be working shift sometimes, I'm on days this week until Thursday night and this weeks commute to work has been brutal.

Couldn't believe the volume of traffic this week on the M9 from the Tunnel to the M7 merger and all the way to the big ball and then it slows to a crawl on the 3 lanes again and this morning was bad around Rathcoole.

Leaving work at 8 pm or 8 am now is actually a pleasure, well kinda, no traffic kind of does make shift work a bit more bearable and tomorrow night I'm off for a week so if people get the opportunity to try out shift work they should give it a go !

Anyway, I believe the upgrade won't make a blind bit of difference because of the sheer massive volume of traffic. Look at the way the traffic slows on the 3 lanes already.

Only solution is 6 lanes north and south, that's really the only solution but their isn't any room, just build another motorway somewhere with at least 3 wide lanes and straight with little bends.

it's about time the Government thought about proper public transport and getting more work out of Dublin and businesses allowing more people to work flex time and from home.

IMHO the M7/9 upgrade will be a massive waste of money ust like the M50, will we learn ?

Victor

gilly2308 wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more, Irish motorists already pay the highest amount of taxes in Europe when one considers VRT, excise duty, fuel duty, VAT and road tax. It is estimated that when all of those different forms of taxes are taken into account, Irish motorists are paying the guts of 4 billion Euro a year. What do we get for that one has to ask, we finally have a proper motorway network after years of driving around on second rate single lane roads, but when one considers how much Irish motorists already pay in the aforementioned taxes, I don't think we should be tolled at all.

Motoring taxes are a disincentive, not an admission fee.

Finally if you look at our nearest neighbour, in the whole of the UK there are only four tolls, namely the Severn Bridges in Wales, the M6 toll road and the Dartford Crossing, and road tax has always been way cheaper in the UK

Note that the UK has 4 times the road network that Ireland has, but has 14 times the population.

In Ireland, each person has to fund:
Road 22 metres
Motorway 0.22 metres

In the UK, each person has to fund:
Road 6.16 metres
Motorway 0.05 metres

gilly0512

Victor wrote: »

Motoring taxes are a disincentive, not an admission fee.

Note that the UK has 4 times the road network that Ireland has, but has 14 times the population.

In Ireland, each person has to fund:
Road 22 metres
Motorway 0.22 metres

In the UK, each person has to fund:
Road 6.16 metres
Motorway 0.05 metres

Not entirely sure what your point is, but the UK also has a vastly superior public transport system to us, as do most other modern countries. In this country you have little or no choice but to drive to wherever your destination may be, so accordingly the Irish state taxes you to the hilt, knowing full well that you have to take the hit, as you can't give up your car.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

it's about time the Government thought about proper public transport and getting more work out of Dublin and businesses allowing more people to work flex time and from home.

IMHO the M7/9 upgrade will be a massive waste of money just like the M50, will we learn ?

In the absence of any serious public transport network in Dublin the M50 upgrade was/is vital.

Problem is the current Government has effectively scrapped all the major transport schemes; MN, DU (especially critical), Luas expansions (Bray, Lucan, Rathmines/Rathfarnham) and the connecting Metro West.

All gone for at least the next 15 - 20 years.

In the meantime we must continue to move around - or we can strangle Dublin's/Ireland's growth potential.

The reality is that we need all those public transport projects and
an expansion of the M-way system in the GDA.

This endless either/or argument is at the root of our poxy public and road infrastructure. It provides a wonder excuse for the politicians to deliver almost nothing :mad:

Schadenfreudia

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

In the absence of any serious public transport network in Dublin the M50 upgrade was/is vital.

Problem is the current Government has effectively scrapped all the major transport schemes; MN, DU (especially critical), Luas expansions (Bray, Lucan, Rathmines/Rathfarnham) and the connecting Metro West.

All gone for at least the next 15 - 20 years.

In the meantime we must continue to move around - or we can strangle Dublin's/Ireland's growth potential.

The reality is that we need all those public transport projects and
an expansion of the M-way system in the GDA.

This endless either/or argument is at the root of our poxy public and road infrastructure. It provides a wonder excuse for the politicians to deliver almost nothing :mad:

It's up to us to demand the Government borrow the money and just do it, it can be paid off over 50 years. roads are not the answer.

The m50 upgrade is a disaster, completely unsuitable for the volume of traffic, they need 6 lanes north and south.

The M7/N7 also needs minimum of 4 lanes or it's going to be another waste of money.

Someone needs to speak out about this because it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed a lot sooner than later. 50 years into the future is far too late for a proper underground and rail system. In 50 years there could be 10-15 million people in Ireland , Jesus , imaging that, all the work in Dublin and 3 million a day using the N7 M50 lol.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

It's up to us to demand the Government borrow the money and just do it, it can be paid off over 50 years. roads are not the answer.

The m50 upgrade is a disaster, completely unsuitable for the volume of traffic, they need 6 lanes north and south.

The M7/N7 also needs minimum of 4 lanes or it's going to be another waste of money.

Someone needs to speak out about this because it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed a lot sooner than later. 50 years into the future is far too late for a proper underground and rail system. In 50 years there could be 10-15 million people in Ireland , Jesus , imaging that, all the work in Dublin and 3 million a day using the N7 M50 lol.

I agree regarding Public Transport - however no modern city works without both PT and a proper M-way network.

They are complimentary, have different functions - not competitors.

Schadenfreudia

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree regarding Public Transport - however no modern city works without both PT and a proper M-way network.

They are complimentary, have different functions - not competitors.

You won't have a proper motorway in Ireland, for the volume you need 6 lanes each side on the M50 and N7/M7 to take the current and future volume.

Or another motorway around the M50, how would they do this ? what's next for the M50 ? you can't even make the N7 more than 3 lanes really.

Everything is so poorly thought out in this country.

marmurr1916

gilly2308 wrote: »

Not entirely sure what your point is, but the UK also has a vastly superior public transport system to us, as do most other modern countries. In this country you have little or no choice but to drive to wherever your destination may be, so accordingly the Irish state taxes you to the hilt, knowing full well that you have to take the hit, as you can't give up your car.

I live in England. This afternoon I went shopping in a nearby town which is about 5 miles away from the town I live in. On my way back, I really enjoyed waiting an extra 30 minutes for a bus home because the 15.20 bus didn't turn up, as did all the other passengers waiting at the bus stop in the cold. This happens regularly with buses in the area I live in - either they're late (I haven't got one bus in the past 6 months that's either departed or arrived on time) or they simply don't turn up at all. Just one small example of the UK's 'vastly superior public transport system'.

If you live in a small town in the UK or in the countryside you very quickly find out that it does not have a reliable, frequent or reasonably priced public transport system.

Obviously the public transport systems in larger urban centres are better, but that's down to population density, not because of investment in, or commitment by, the state to public transport.

Train fares can also be crazily expensive, especially if you buy a ticket on the day of travel or at short notice. For example, a return ticket from Manchester to London, about the same distance as Dublin to Cork, could cost you over £200 if you book on the day of travel, whereas it'll cost far, far less if you do the same in Ireland.

Pensioners in Ireland also get a much better deal when it comes to free public transport than pensioners in the UK, who are restricted to using off-peak local buses under the various free public transport schemes for pensioners in different parts of the UK.

As for the N7/M7, it clearly needs upgrading and widening from at least the M50 to the M9 split. But expecting it to be started now, at a time when there are other areas of public spending that have a much greater call on taxapayers' money, and when the public finances are still in recovery mode, is simply stupid.

It will have to wait until the funding is made available - there are far more public investment projects, far more transport projects, far more road projects that are more urgent than reducing congestion at peak times on a relatively short section of road.

And two years for an upgrade of a dual-carriageway to motorway (while keeping the road open) is not that long a time.

The current upgrade of a roughly 10-mile long section of the A1 dual-carriageway to motorway in northern Yorkshire will have taken well over two years to finish by the time it's complete.

_Kaiser_

I still don't think widening the M7 is the answer as the only real issue is between Naas and the M9 and then mostly because people dawdle unnecessarily and/or sit in the right lane in a slow moving convoy and then leave it till the last minute to get over to the M9 exit. After that point things are generally fine.

it does strike me as mad that we have only this one motorway out of Dublin for so many primary destinations. Maybe if they did something with the N81 for example and improved north-south links before the M50 there'd be no need to shove everything onto this single stretch of road. EG: If I was coming up from Kildare town or Carlow say and going to Sandyford then would it not be better for me to easily/quickly get across to the N81/M11 somehow instead?