M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

L1011

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

In a proper country, the road would be wide enough after it was built in the first place with no need for construction.

This section of road opened 31 years ago.

Pretty much all "proper" countries have to widen motorways of that age with frequency.

Utdfan20titles

L1011 wrote: »

This section of road opened 31 years ago.

Pretty much all "proper" countries have to widen motorways of that age with frequency.

There was no M7 31 years ago. You had to drive through every town from Dublin to wherever you were going.

cgcsb

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

In a proper country, the road would be wide enough after it was built in the first place with no need for construction.

In 'proper countries' of similar size to Ireland, roads don't get wider than 3 lanes. See copenhagen, for example, they just planned their suburbs on commuter railways, added orbital bus routes and worked on improving connectivity. No need for 6 lane roads.

SoupyNorman

gilly2308 wrote: »

Why in god's name will construction on this not start until April 2017, in a proper country they would be finished construction by April 2017 not just commencing!!

Tendering, planning and road traffic management plans in place.

I guess the only plus is road projects here typically finish ahead of schedule.

Utdfan20titles

cgcsb wrote: »

In 'proper countries' of similar size to Ireland, roads don't get wider than 3 lanes. See copenhagen, for example, they just planned their suburbs on commuter railways, added orbital bus routes and worked on improving connectivity. No need for 6 lane roads.

The M7 is only two lanes wide though. And our suburban commuter railways and orbital bus corridors are sh*t. I'd imagine Denmark's are somewhat more reliable. Our public transport is a disgrace in comparison to any other Western (& probably Eastern) European country.

marno21

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

There was no M7 31 years ago. You had to drive through every town from Dublin to wherever you were going.

The M7 Naas Bypass opened in 1983. So 32 years ago. There was no point in building a three lane motorway in 1983 feeding into S2 roads

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2014/07/31/article-m7-naas-bypass-30th-anniversary-lecture/

L1011

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

There was no M7 31 years ago. You had to drive through every town from Dublin to wherever you were going.

Wrong.

Naas Bypass opened in 1983. There was a DC bypass of Johnstown, Kill, Rathcoole etc from the 1960s.

Utdfan20titles

marno21 wrote: »

The M7 Naas Bypass opened in 1983. So 32 years ago. There was no point in building a three lane motorway in 1983 feeding into S2 roads

Thanks for the history lesson.

They bypassed Naas in 1983, but nowhere else (Monasterevin, Newbridge, Kildare etc.). Not much of a motorway if you ask me.

Utdfan20titles

L1011 wrote: »

Wrong.

Naas Bypass opened in 1983. There was a DC bypass of Johnstown, Kill, Rathcoole etc from the 1960s.

M7.
The road that bypasses Johnstown, Kill & Rathcoole is still not a motorway now, even though it is far better than it used to be.

L1011

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

M7.

Yes, the Naas Bypass is the M7 and has been since the day it opened, in 1983. You're still wrong.

The rest was just showing that you were also wrong about having to go through every town back then.

The bit being widened is over 30 years old, an age at which widening is not down to some unimaginable lack of foresight.

cgcsb

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

The M7 is only two lanes wide though. And our suburban commuter railways and orbital bus corridors are sh*t. I'd imagine Denmark's are somewhat more reliable. Our public transport is a disgrace in comparison to any other Western (& probably Eastern) European country.

Err.we don't have orbital bus corridors or any real commuter railways except for the DART we also built a load of cul de sacs nowhere near the railways the Brits left behind. We've esentially failled at building a modern state.

Deedsie

cgcsb wrote: »

Err.we don't have orbital bus corridors or any real commuter railways except for the DART we also built a load of cul de sacs nowhere near the railways the Brits left behind. We've esentially failled at building a modern state.

Which state in your opinion should we aspire to be more like? Curious is all.

gilly0512

Deedsie wrote: »

Which state in your opinion should we aspire to be more like? Curious is all.

At this stage I think we are a bit late to start copying any other countries, London, New York, Paris etc have had their undergrounds since the 1800s, so based on the fact that we've left it far too late and it would cost too much, we will never have a proper integrated transport system in Dublin, or any other Irish city for that matter. The only options going forward for Dublin are extensions to the LUAS or Dart, or the odd one off project such as the one to connect the city centre to Dublin airport. Even that is not envisaged to be completed until 2027, so with timelines such as that, there really is no hope for public transport in this country.
Finally I think it is now imperative that the government reopens plans to build another orbital route around Dublin //https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Orbital_Route, as it's not even a year since Newlands Cross opened up, and yet the N7 is now as bad as it was prior to the flyover at Newlands Cross , with tailbacks every morning from 7 onwards from Brown's Barn right through to the M50. The M50 is pretty much at maximum capacity if not well over at this stage, and is only going to get much worse going forward.

Deedsie

gilly2308 wrote: »

At this stage I think we are a bit late to start copying any other countries, London, New York, Paris etc have had their undergrounds since the 1800s, so based on the fact that we've left it far too late and it would cost too much, we will never have a proper integrated transport system in Dublin, or any other Irish city for that matter. The only options going forward for Dublin are extensions to the LUAS or Dart, or the odd one off project such as the one to connect the city centre to Dublin airport. Even that is not envisaged to be completed until 2027, so with timelines such as that, there really is no hope for public transport in this country.
Finally I think it is now imperative that the government reopens plans to build another orbital route around Dublin //https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Orbital_Route, as it's not even a year since Newlands Cross opened up, and yet the N7 is now as bad as it was prior to the flyover at Newlands Cross , with tailbacks every morning from 7 onwards from Brown's Barn right through to the M50. The M50 is pretty much at maximum capacity if not well over at this stage, and is only going to get much worse going forward.

Well design for the Victoria line in London began in 1946 and it didn't open until 1968. Now I am not arguing that we have shown any competence at providing public transport, but it does take time for undergrounds to be designed and built. The killer is we have to design and apply for a new rail license for Metro North... Hopefully they could design Metro south simultaneously and get Dart Underground back on table... We can but hope...

cgcsb

Deedsie wrote: »

Which state in your opinion should we aspire to be more like? Curious is all.

Somewhere more like Denmark, The Netherlands or perhaps some of the German states. Even Spain has it's game together these days.

cgcsb

gilly2308 wrote: »

At this stage I think we are a bit late to start copying any other countries, London, New York, Paris etc have had their undergrounds since the 1800s, so based on the fact that we've left it far too late and it would cost too much, we will never have a proper integrated transport system in Dublin, or any other Irish city for that matter. The only options going forward for Dublin are extensions to the LUAS or Dart, or the odd one off project such as the one to connect the city centre to Dublin airport. Even that is not envisaged to be completed until 2027, so with timelines such as that, there really is no hope for public transport in this country.
Finally I think it is now imperative that the government reopens plans to build another orbital route around Dublin //https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Orbital_Route, as it's not even a year since Newlands Cross opened up, and yet the N7 is now as bad as it was prior to the flyover at Newlands Cross , with tailbacks every morning from 7 onwards from Brown's Barn right through to the M50. The M50 is pretty much at maximum capacity if not well over at this stage, and is only going to get much worse going forward.

An outer Dublin Orbital route would cost the same or more as DART underground.

cgcsb

Deedsie wrote: »

Well design for the Victoria line in London began in 1946 and it didn't open until 1968. Now I am not arguing that we have shown any competence at providing public transport, but it does take time for undergrounds to be designed and built. The killer is we have to design and apply for a new rail license for Metro North... Hopefully they could design Metro south simultaneously and get Dart Underground back on table... We can but hope...

Metro North won't be built. This is an anti-Dublin government. They say they hope to start work on it in 2021, just in time for the next election. Presumably while scratching their nether regions for 6 years. In 2021 they'll be promising to start work in 2022, by that time Dublin airport will have busted at the seams and we'll need another redesign and more reports written and round and round we go.

gilly0512

cgcsb wrote: »

An outer Dublin Orbital route would cost the same or more as DART underground.

How would it, there is a big difference to building a road through fields than building tunnels under a city. Building an underground tunnel from say Stephen's Green to Dublin airport would cost several times more than say building a road from Newbridge to Drogheda.

cgcsb

gilly2308 wrote: »

How would it, there is a big difference to building a road through fields than building tunnels under a city. Building an underground tunnel from say Stephen's Green to Dublin airport would cost several times more than say building a road from Newbridge to Drogheda.

Motorway in Ireland costs about €10m per km run not including bridges, tunnels and junctions. A 70km motorway = €700m + a few mega junctions and bridges, you're easily talking €1.5bn. Not quite DART underground's price tag, but for the money it's a comparatively unimportant project, mostly it'd just facilitate the rare journeys between the north east and south west.

gilly0512

cgcsb wrote: »

Motorway in Ireland costs about €10m per km run not including bridges, tunnels and junctions. A 70km motorway = €700m + a few mega junctions and bridges, you're easily talking €1.5bn. Not quite DART underground's price tag, but for the money it's a comparatively unimportant project, mostly it'd just facilitate the rare journeys between the north east and south west.

How is it unimportant, the M50 is pretty much already at peak capacity, and all of the main roads in and out of Dublin are gridlocked in the morning and afternoon. Yes a proper public transport system would be far more preferable than new roads, but based on the fact that Irish governments don't have the foresight or the intelligence to build a proper public transport system in Dublin, keeping the roads moving is our only option.

Middle Man

gilly2308 wrote: »

How is it unimportant, the M50 is pretty much already at peak capacity, and all of the main roads in and out of Dublin are gridlocked in the morning and afternoon. Yes a proper public transport system would be far more preferable than new roads, but based on the fact that Irish governments don't have the foresight or the intelligence to build a proper public transport system in Dublin, keeping the roads moving is our only option.

In the medium term, our green policy needs to shift focus from cars in general to fuel efficiency, renewable energy and economic practices. It is sad that Ireland has missed such an opportunity to build an underground for Dublin - it's what Dublin needs, but as people say here, the parish pump is alive and well. Such aspirations for major rail infrastructure are probably decades away even at this late stage. What's currently needed all round is a major economic shake up where greener lifestyles are rewarded and wasteful practices penalised.

For a start, most gas guzzlers (except where justified) should be loaded with everything - about 90% of these are probably status symbols - for example, how many off road vehicles have actually been off road? Next thing, phased rollout of GPS tracking in cars - cut excess speed on all roads and congestion on motorways - this would allow substantial curtailment of traffic calming which along with reduced engine power, reduced speed and congestion should drastically cut Co2 emissions in motor transport. Then there is ITS followed by a 'kit of parts' approach to road capacity improvements - for example, frontage connectors between closely set interchanges - the N4 between the M50 and Liffey Valley junctions would be an obvious example - four carriageways should have been considered in the first place (something like M50 J13 to J14). Then there is Red Cow / Ballymount etc.

Now the elephant in the room, yes the property mindset, need a serious reality check. Politicians keep banging on about lifestyles and the environment - however, how come when individuals try to reside near their places of work or major public transport hubs (within walking distance), they face exorbitant costs (rents etc) for the privilege of doing so? How come employers are allowed to locate their operations in the middle of cities while their employees are forced to travel ridiculous distances, often by car - how can these economic practices be environmentally friendly let alone socially desirable?

If the earth as we know it is to survive, then employers are going to have to make sacrifices - and that's just transport I'm talking about. Also, property in this country has become extremely overrated the system that controls such is totally outdated - there has to be far more flexibility on the part of employers and residents as our economy has become very mobile - very few jobs for life exist and very few industries remain the same for generations. Also, infrastructural needs are rapidly changing and thereby increasingly rendering the property system and the industry as stubborn relics that refuse to change with the times. This resistance to change is simple unsustainable.

You can't penalise people from driving where there are no alternatives.

Most Irish people already drive small slow cars so I don;t see what GPS would do to eliminate emissions , I am in favour of eliminating diesels because I'm more concerned about their much higher Nox emissions that is over looked in Europe because the obsession in Europe is Co2 and many people now are brainwashed into thinking Co2 is actually a pollutant which it isn't. It won't damage the environment or cause cancer, heart and lung disease, acid rain etc.

I drive a Nissan Leaf 84 miles a day, it works not saying everything should charge for 10 mins a day on a fast charger which I don't now with work charging but they are suitable for many thousands of people and it makes for very efficient use of energy and before anyone ask where my energy comes from, it comes from gas and wind but they also need to think that petrol and diesel needs a lot of electricity at the refinery and the energy to transport it from the middle east etc. But certainly in 2018 the Gen II electrics will be more than suitable with 150-200 miles range. I've driven 22,400 Kms since January.

We need an underground in Dublin badly, we need it today not in 50 years when the population and pollution will be much higher.

You can build road after road and it won't change anything. What's the next stage for the M50 ? there isn't one, game over and truth be told there is probably far more people using it now since the toll bridge was removed because they thought it was far quicker and in some ways it is but it's still a disaster.

You can't have a city with no proper rail or underground, Glasgow has an underground for heaven's sake.

Time and time again it's been proven that more roads isn't a solution and neither is moving half the city population to the commuter areas which was another disaster.

We'll never learn !!!

Middle Man

Middle Man wrote: »

In the medium term, our green policy needs to shift focus from cars in general to fuel efficiency, renewable energy and economic practices. ....


then employers are going to have to make sacrifices -

....

Also, infrastructural needs are rapidly changing and thereby increasingly rendering the property system and the industry as stubborn relics that refuse to change with the times. This resistance to change is simple unsustainable.

We now live in a world where technology could, if allowed, eliminate at least 30% of all commutes simply allowing those jobs that use IT be done from home.

Some businesses have reversed the trend of allowing working from home on the pretext that productivity is increased with all the staff in the office.
To me it appears more to be a controlling function above all as many people are more productive when they're working from home, just ask anyone who is self employed.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

We now live in a world where technology could, if allowed, eliminate at least 30% of all commutes simply allowing those jobs that use IT be done from home.

Some businesses have reversed the trend of allowing working from home on the pretext that productivity is increased with all the staff in the office.
To me it appears more to be a controlling function above all as many people are more productive when they're working from home, just ask anyone who is self employed.

Working from home would eliminate all the nonsense that has been observed since they started changing offices to open plan, the BS and noise I hear here in work is really unproductive and stressful when I need to get work done but thankfully I get to leave the office for the production area a lot and I use this area as my office as much as I can for silence.

A lot of work places won't entertain the idea of working from home !

Middle Man

Just to Clarify...

I certainly don't think that people who are forced to drive long distances should be penalized. When I mention congestion measures, the GPS tracking would have nothing to do with pricing with the current tax structures in place - motorists already pay too much. By cutting excess speed through GPS monitoring though, major roads like the M50 and approaching radials should operate much more smoothly as such mass flow routes would have a better chance to absorb the traffic and process it much more efficiently - some 'kit of parts' upgrades would also help towards achieving that objective.

Also, cars and motorways are not to blame for long distance commuting - economic practices are - indeed, what's wrong with letting people work from home - indeed, is the practice of forcing people to commute unnecessarily about control rather than economics? Also, when is the property industry going to wake up and stop dreaming that this is still the 20th century - you know, this stupid 'living the dream' thing and 'having it all' which is actually, dreaming the dream! That fact that this is October 2015 is rather apt one must say - we actually do need to get some people in high places ready for the future! :rolleyes:

cgcsb

gilly2308 wrote: »

How is it unimportant, the M50 is pretty much already at peak capacity, and all of the main roads in and out of Dublin are gridlocked in the morning and afternoon. Yes a proper public transport system would be far more preferable than new roads, but based on the fact that Irish governments don't have the foresight or the intelligence to build a proper public transport system in Dublin, keeping the roads moving is our only option.

Such a route would only be useful for journies between the South West of Ireland and the North East of Ireland, it wouldn't do anything for Dublin inter-suburb travel, that's why it's not important.

_Kaiser_

I've started driving the N/M7 daily in recent times and IMO there's actually very little need for an extra lane beyond Naas.
All that's needed is for the muppetry to be dealt with... dawdlers, undertaking, tailgaters, lane-weavers and the elephant-racing that goes on between 40 foot trucks.

The net effect of all this is to reduce the M7 between Naas and Kildare to effectively 1 lane for long stretches of it and it's getting worse with the darker evenings. Tackle this though and there'd be plenty of capacity on what's already there.

Deedsie

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've started driving the N/M7 daily in recent times and IMO there's actually very little need for an extra lane beyond Naas.
All that's needed is for the muppetry to be dealt with... dawdlers, undertaking, tailgaters, lane-weavers and the elephant-racing that goes on between 40 foot trucks.

The net effect of all this is to reduce the M7 between Naas and Kildare to effectively 1 lane for long stretches of it and it's getting worse with the darker evenings. Tackle this though and there'd be plenty of capacity on what's already there.

Ah the junctions need upgrading at the very least and traffic volumes are only going to increase justifying the expansion to 3 lanes. I agree with the point you are making but AGS it seems don't have the manpower to police the road and the RSA don't deem it worthy to invest in a campaign to educate morons who are unable to use a motorway correctly.

marno21

The existing junction 10 is unsuitable as it was designed in 1983 and doesn't seem to be suited to modern traffic flows, especially considering the amount of M7 (S) traffic heading towards Newbridge that would be better off heading directly onto the R445 DC.

I hope the M7 widening is accompanied by an educational programme on using D3M, otherwise it's a waste of money

SoupyNorman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've started driving the N/M7 daily in recent times and IMO there's actually very little need for an extra lane beyond Naas.
All that's needed is for the muppetry to be dealt with... dawdlers, undertaking, tailgaters, lane-weavers and the elephant-racing that goes on between 40 foot trucks.

The net effect of all this is to reduce the M7 between Naas and Kildare to effectively 1 lane for long stretches of it and it's getting worse with the darker evenings. Tackle this though and there'd be plenty of capacity on what's already there.

As a daily commuter too, I agree with your sentiment to a point but in terms of driver behaviour I think the horse has bolted. How would it be possible to reign in such behaviours at this stage? It’s like the wacky races until the M9 junction.

3 lanes are the only solution I can see which will alleviate the issue.