Overeem fails pre fight drug test

armitage_skanks

MrStuffins wrote:

For a lot of people it was a case of innocent til proven guilty.

You can't just go around saying "that fella is on steroids" and treat it as fact without due process.

No, if it was just a case of innocent until proven guilty you would have just said that and left it.

You were actively trying to argue that Overeem could be natural. Anybody with a knowledge of training knew he wasn't natural, you could be 99% sure and the 1% was just waiting for him to fail a test. Which he just did.

He put on 50lbs of lean muscle while actively training/fighting, all the while keeping ~10% bodyfat, developed huge roiders traps, puffy water-retention in face/neck.

And he didn't gradually put on 50lbs over 7 years or whatever BS you said in the other thread. If you look at his weights for each fight, there was very rapid spurts of muscle gain at several points in his career.

Then there's circumstantial evidence like the very limited testing over his career, the fact that he left the country to avoid the test in December, didn't like the idea of Olympic-style testing in M1..etc. Yes that is just circumstantial but when you add it on top of the physical signs it all adds up.

The evidence was plain as day, most people in the other thread saw them except yourself and Ogglesberry.

RoboRat

Yes that is just circumstantial but when you add it on top of the physical signs it all adds up.

Unfortunately in this day and age if all the signs point at something you still cannot say what you and probably everyone else is thinking because of libel. Its crap, its sh1t but its a fact of life. In days gone by if it stank of sh1t you could say so, nowadays if it smells, feels, looks and tastes like sh1t you cannot say so unless it has been 100% certified that it is sh1t! You can't go around making accusations unless it has been proven.

armitage_skanks

RoboRat wrote: »

Unfortunately in this day and age if all the signs point at something you still cannot say what you and probably everyone else is thinking because of libel. Its crap, its sh1t but its a fact of life. In days gone by if it stank of sh1t you could say so, nowadays if it smells, feels, looks and tastes like sh1t you cannot say so unless it has been 100% certified that it is sh1t! You can't go around making accusations unless it has been proven.

For sure but if all the signs point to it being sh*t and you actively and condecendingly ('keyboard jockeys' etc) argue that it's chocolate, then you look like a grade-A tit when the proof finally comes.

Mr. Loverman

MrStuffins wrote: »

I couldnt just go around telling everyone you were a child molester just because I thought you looked like one

Bad analogy. People on steroids show obvious physical signs whereas child molesters look like normal people.

As has been stated previously, huge mass and good cardio do not go hand in hand. Bodybuilding 101...

EDIT: By huge mass I am referring to the likes of Overeem's build, i.e. huge muscles and barely any body fat. He also had other signs such as the ones pointed out already.

MrStuffins

armitage_skanks wrote: »

The evidence was plain as day, most people in the other thread saw them except yourself and Ogglesberry.

Great. You said he was roiding without evidence and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. You, and a lot of people, were right. I, on the other hand, was wrong.

What do you want? An Ice Cream? A pat on the back?

The "I Told You So" threads are on a different website.

cowzerp

00benski wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty my ass, this is real life not some stupid court room or some silly bubble we are living in ( altough some people on this form seem to be ). The fact of the matter is as ive said already, ped abuse is rampant in 80% of elite athletes.
t..

Lose the attitude, you can't go around throwing accusations or there can be legal issues, that's why you got warnings, fact you where right is irrelevant.

Now you can say it about him without banning!

armitage_skanks

MrStuffins wrote: »

What do you want? An Ice Cream? A pat on the back?

The "I Told You So" threads are on a different website.

There you go again, always with the smart-arse comments. Even on the other thread people were saying you always seem to get into arguments.

Its possible to have a discussion without it turning into an argument that drags the forum down. But throwing attitude and sarkiness into comments doesnt help at all.

El Guapo!

MrStuffins

armitage_skanks wrote: »

MrStuffins wrote: »

What do you want? An Ice Cream? A pat on the back?

The "I Told You So" threads are on a different website.

There you go again, always with the smart-arse comments. Even on the other thread people were saying you always seem to get into arguments.

Its possible to have a discussion without it turning into an argument that drags the forum down. But throwing attitude and sarkiness into comments doesnt help at all.

Youre dead right, ita very possible. Kinda hard though when people come to a thread with a "I told you so" attitude and bringing up things from another thread.

Im not arguing though, i was wrong. the lad has failed a test which means all the signs in the past pointing towards steroid use were probably pointing right to that.

El Guapo!

The way it is, a lot of people, myself included, suspected Overeem to be doing something because does look pretty much like he was sculpted by Michaelangelo.
On the other hand, as has already been said you can't go around accusing everyone just because you have a hunch, or "it's obvious". You always have to give people the benefit of the doubt whether you like it or not. I suspected something about him but I didn't say it and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. You can't just blacken someones name whenever you feel like it.

The bottom line is if you make accusations before anyone is proven guilty, you can get yourself and Boards into a good bit of trouble and nobody wants that. I told you so attitudes are no help to a conversation about the subject.

Kev M

It's a shame he got caught really. If I had to bet on it I'd of said he was on, but to be honest there was doubt in my mind. Look at it this way, the guy has always been in great shape, when he was competing at 18/19 years old he was big and shredded. People are saying he gained 50lbs, it's more like 25lbs.. going from 225/230ish to 255ish isn't beyond comprehension for a genetically elite guy who's always had to stay within reach of getting to 205lbs for the best part of a decade and then suddenly starts eating and lifting like crazy.

Although highly unlikely, it'd be great if he could get off on some trt excuse and the fight goes ahead!

El Guapo!

Kev M wrote: »

Although highly unlikely, it'd be great if he could get off on some trt excuse and the fight goes ahead!

It'd be terrible if he "got off on some trt excuse"
Fair enough the fans get to see a fight but that's not what it's about.
It's a professional sport, and in professional sports such as this one it's supposed to be man against man in the cage with both fighters being clean and not having any kind of synthetic advantage.
I don't want to see a fight where one guy is juiced up to the eyeballs and the other one is clean as a whistle and has worked his heart out in the lead up to the fight. The only way I'd enjoy that fight is if the juiced up guy gets destroyed.
If he was to get off on some trt excuse it'd be a disaster for the sport and it would send a message to all the other fighters that you can take whatever you want and get away with it.
That's not my idea of an enjoyable sport. Just my opinion.

insanity50

I genuinely wonder is there any way for him to get off?

the talk is now that it wasn't even legal for NSAC to test him because he didn't even have a license.

I'd love if he got off and the fight went ahead.

Kizer said overeem is going to appear at april 24th hearing (on a side note he said he doesn't know if diaz is appearing)

A large amount of ufc fighters are juicing.
I bet you had no problem with dan henderson beating shogun dean?
or sonnen whupping silva for 5 rds?
nor will u complain if sonnen whupps silva again?

the fans are the biggest losers in all this.

frontrowbrian said on twitter that one of the other 5 ufc146 heavyweights had been tipped off about the testing and cycled his steroids off in the days prior to the press conference. overeem just got unlucky.
one of the other 146 fighters is on juice too just dodged a bullet.

armitage_skanks

Kev M wrote: »

It's a shame he got caught really. If I had to bet on it I'd of said he was on, but to be honest there was doubt in my mind. Look at it this way, the guy has always been in great shape, when he was competing at 18/19 years old he was big and shredded. People are saying he gained 50lbs, it's more like 25lbs.. going from 225/230ish to 255ish isn't beyond comprehension for a genetically elite guy who's always had to stay within reach of getting to 205lbs for the best part of a decade and then suddenly starts eating and lifting like crazy.

In his first full-time HW fight (Knapp) he weighed 98kg (216). He was a lean 263 against Lesnar. So 47lbs gain.

And it wasn't a gradual weight gain over 6 years. There was some very rapid spurts. He was already 260 against Fujita in 2009. He went from 225 to 242 in 3 months.

Somebody with a skinny frame (look at his wrists & ankles) putting on that kind of muscle, that fast, all the while staying lean, fighting regularly, doing cardio... its not possible naturally.

Kev M

armitage_skanks wrote: »

Kev M wrote: »

It's a shame he got caught really. If I had to bet on it I'd of said he was on, but to be honest there was doubt in my mind. Look at it this way, the guy has always been in great shape, when he was competing at 18/19 years old he was big and shredded. People are saying he gained 50lbs, it's more like 25lbs.. going from 225/230ish to 255ish isn't beyond comprehension for a genetically elite guy who's always had to stay within reach of getting to 205lbs for the best part of a decade and then suddenly starts eating and lifting like crazy.

In his first full-time HW fight (Knapp) he weighed 98kg (216). He was a lean 263 against Lesnar. So 47lbs gain.

And it wasn't a gradual weight gain over 6 years. There was some very rapid spurts. He was already 260 against Fujita in 2009. He went from 225 to 242 in 3 months.

Somebody with a skinny frame (look at his wrists & ankles) putting on that kind of muscle, that fast, all the while staying lean, fighting regularly, doing cardio... its not possible naturally.

If thats the case then sorry for my mistake. My understanding was that he walked around at 230 and the cut to 205 was just becoming too much.

Mellor

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Bad analogy. People on steroids show obvious physical signs .

The signs of steroid use always bugs me a bit, ignoring rapid growth of course. Things like "I could tell he was juicing my the shape of his traps, i've seen juiced traps before". It's nearly a meme at this stage.
It's also a useless observation after the fact.

Mellor

insanity50 wrote: »

A large amount of ufc fighters are juicing.
I bet you had no problem with dan henderson beating shogun dean?
or sonnen whupping silva for 5 rds?
nor will u complain if sonnen whupps silva again?

Dan Henderson isn't juicing.
He had a TRT exemption for some time as he was pretty sick. His dose is just enough to get him to normal levels for his age.
Posting without a clue is pointless.

frontrowbrian said on twitter that one of the other 5 ufc146 heavyweights had been tipped off about the testing and cycled his steroids off in the days prior to the press conference. overeem just got unlucky.
one of the other 146 fighters is on juice too just dodged a bullet.

So you think stoping a cycle for a few days before hand means you'll piss clean?
Think about that, if that was the case how would anybody ever get caught via a pre or post fight test?

KangoSkank

The half life of the testosterone steroid that these lads take is 8 days so cycling off them a few days before would be no use

Roar

Mellor wrote: »

It's nearly a meme at this stage.

Couldn't resist...

insanity50

Mellor wrote: »

Dan Henderson isn't juicing.
He had a TRT exemption for some time as he was pretty sick. His dose is just enough to get him to normal levels for his age.
Posting without a clue is pointless.


So you think stoping a cycle for a few days before hand means you'll piss clean?
Think about that, if that was the case how would anybody ever get caught via a pre or post fight test?

yes this is exactly what happens. why do you think so few fighters ever get caught pissing hot. it's cause they cycle off the juice in the week to ten days preceding the fight.

guys like marquardt, sonnen are the exception not the rule.

only reason overeem got stung was cause the test was randomly done and unexpected. he expects to be tested pre and post fight and thus will cycle out prior to fight time.


dana says that mir cain is definitely happening. not sure what that means for jds.
hopefully uncle dana will take care of the b sample and the reem will fight.

Mr. Loverman

I honestly don't know why so many people have a hard time believing so many athletes juice.

Probably, there is some cognitive bias for this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

dave1982

A few days after Alistair Overeem failed a drug test and likely cost himself a title shot, UFC officials have announced no replacement for his UFC 146 bout with heavyweight champion Junior Dos Santos.

However, there have been some interesting developments.

Veteran middleweight and light heavyweight Dan Henderson has expressed his interest in the bout, and UFC president Dana White seemingly has ruled out the possibility of Frank Mir stepping in.

UFC 146, of course, takes place May 26, and the pay-per-view main card airs from Las Vegas' MGM Grand Garden Arena. Overeem (36-11 MMA, 1-0 UFC) was expected to take on Dos Santos (14-1 MMA, 8-0 UFC) in the championship headliner, but the former Strikeforce and DREAM champ recently failed a surprise drug test (his T/E ratio was 14:1, well over the 6:1 cutoff), and the Nevada State Athletic Commission is now unlikely to license him for the fight.

In recent days, fans have launched campaigns to push for everyone from Mark Hunt (8-7 MMA, 3-1 UFC) to Fedor Emelianenko (33-4 MMA, 0-0 UFC) to Fabricio Werdum (15-5-1 MMA, 3-2 UFC) to be the replacement. However, many considered Mir (16-5 MMA, 14-5 UFC), who's currently slated to fight ex-champ Cain Velasquez (9-1 MMA, 7-1 UFC) on the UFC 146 main card, the leading candidate.

But UFC president Dana White seemed to discount that possibility in a recent tweet when responding to a fan.

"Mir vs. Cain will happen," he tweeted early this morning, suggesting he won't break up that matchup.

Perhaps the UFC could look in a different weight class. Henderson (29-8 MMA, 5-2 UFC), for example, "for sure" would take the fight if offered, he tweeted on Friday.

Henderson is on a 7-1 run that includes fights at middleweight, light heavyweight and heavyweight. The heavyweight win came over Emelianenko under the Strikeforce banner. Henderson scored a knockout win then signed with the UFC and topped light heavyweight Mauricio "Shogun" Rua in a "Fight of the Year" performance at UFC 139.

Henderson certainly has the marketability, and his recent credentials – including wins over then-Strikeforce champ Rafael "Feijao" Cavalcante, Michael Bisping and Rich Franklin – speak for themselves. But even when fighting at heavyweight, Henderson weighed in at just 207 pounds. Dos Santos, by comparison, weighed 239 pounds for his title-clinching win over Velasquez in November.

Still, he may be a leading candidate. In a recent interview with MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com), Hunt said he doesn't expect to get the fight, and Emelianenko – who was unlikely anyway because of a contentious relationship between the UFC and the fighter's management – has been announced for a June 21 event in Russia, possibly against Bobby Lashley.

Additionally, the other top-level heavyweights from the UFC 146 main card – Roy Nelson (16-7 MMA, 3-3 UFC) and Antonio Silva (16-3 MMA, 0-0 UFC) – are coming off losses.




http://mmajunkie.com/news/28149/ufc-146-latest-hendo-interested-in-title-fight-mir-velasquez-will-happen.mma

Hendo has some sets of balls in fairness:D

Barry.Oglesby

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I honestly don't know why so many people have a hard time believing so many athletes juice.

Probably, there is some cognitive bias for this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

They could also have a condition known as "real world experience". Not quite as cool to quote though.

Mr. Loverman

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

They could also have a condition known as "real world experience". Not quite as cool to quote though.

I am an ex weight lifter and it is beyond obvious who is juicing.

Barry.Oglesby

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I am an ex weight lifter and it is beyond obvious who is juicing.

At what level did you weightlift?

Mr. Loverman

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

At what level did you weightlift?

Never went to competition, but was into it for many years.

In a nutshell massive lads have a lot of fat, except pro bodybuilders who all juice.

For the record I have no issue with PED. But I don't want to argue online as obviously that's a waste of time, so anyone who disagrees, we can agree to disagree.

Barry.Oglesby

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Never went to competition, but was into it for many years.

In a nutshell massive lads have a lot of fat, except pro bodybuilders who all juice.

For the record I have no issue with PED. But I don't want to argue online as obviously that's a waste of time, so anyone who disagrees, we can agree to disagree.

So if I'm right, you were an amateur non-competitive lifter of weights (we might mean different things when we say weightlifting- I mean the Olympic sport), and you claim this is expertise enough that you can distinguish users of PEDs from non-users remotely via photo and video. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just pointing out the inherent faults with your contention.

All massive lads are not fat, and there are many natural bodybuilders who are both massive and lean.

Mr. Loverman

No, for example, I was at the Asian bodybuilding championships this year, in Mongolia.

I would say I have about 15 years bodybuilding/weight lifting experience, and that includes a large amount of interest in PED.

JacksonHeightsOwn

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I am an ex weight lifter and it is beyond obvious who is juicing.

in your opinion who would you say is "obviously juicing"

00benski

Mellor wrote: »

Dan Henderson isn't juicing.
He had a TRT exemption for some time as he was pretty sick. His dose is just enough to get him to normal levels for his age.
Posting without a clue is pointless.


So you think stoping a cycle for a few days before hand means you'll piss clean?
Think about that, if that was the case how would anybody ever get caught via a pre or post fight test?

Yes there are many many steroids on the market today that will be out of your system in days and some cannot be detected at all, hence why so many athletes get away with taking them.

There are also many many steroids on the market today that produce little or no sides.

It also bugs me sometimes when people just think that ped's only make you big. You can bet your bottom dollar that plenty of the guys at the lower end of the weighting scales are on them also.

There affects can be anything from making you big to making you small to making you pain free after an injury. And all this talk about trt is a load of my **** also. Its a petty excuse for some of these atlethes to get away with taking test.