England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

teednab-el

walshb wrote: »

bm1993 wrote: »

You're missing the point. Of course it has relevance in the overall scheme of things but it has no relevance to the game on Saturday. IMO our 15 is better than their 15 and the fact that there's an extra 45 million plus people in England won't count for a lot.

I am not just talking about Saturday. Like it or not, all is not a level playing field in the 6 nations. If it was, the Italians would be winning a lot more.

Anyone saying that rugby is the same here as it is in Wales, France or England is off the mark. There are clear differences. And, we winning and holding our own, (number 2 team since 6 nations began) is something we should be proud of.

Unfortuntely there are no trophies on offer for being 2nd in the 6nations years in years out.

Ardillaun

Tox56 wrote: »

Compare the probable line-ups, and rate the opposite numbers:

Rob Kearney - Ben Foden
Tommy Bowe - Chris Ashton
Keith Earls - Manu Tuilagi
Gordon D'Arcy - Brad Barritt Evs
Andrew Trimble - Charlie Sharples
Jonathan Sexton - Owen Farrell
Eoin Reddan - Lee Dickson
Cian Healy - Alex Corbisiero
Rory Best - Dylan Hartley
Mike Ross - Dan Cole
Donncha O'Callaghan - Mouritz Botha
Donnacha Ryan - Geoff Parling
Stephen Ferris - Tom Croft
Sean O'Brien - Chris Robshaw
Jamie Heaslip - Ben Morgan

That is only my opinion, but it is fairly conclusive. I am confident we have the better players. The English population, or whether it is our first sport or not, is irrelevant.

We shouldn't be "entitled" to beat these bigger countries, but we should be pretty confident even away from home. We probably have a similar amount of better players when we play Scotland, why should we be intimidated because England has a bigger population?

England will be a stern test. Among the things that help us against them, as opposed to France, is that they are usually not better than us at EVERYTHING. Their handling is ordinary. Kearney vs Foden is a close one. RK has been playing well and he has great hands but let’s hope he doesn’t get into a foot race against Foden at any stage of the proceedings. Croft is the same, not great at the breakdown, but definitely one of the fastest rugby forwards over 100m. He’s better than Ferris in some ways. On the wings it's really right against left - Sharples is hard to rate but I’d give Bowe the nod there and re Trimble against Ashton I'd give that one to Ashton despite his drop in form. Sexton is definitely better. Our centres must hope their brains will prevail against ‘English’ brawn. The result there will help decide whether mass is now essential in those positions. I wouldn’t be so confident about our forwards being better than theirs overall. We’ll be lucky to match them in the scrums - and line outs where Croft adds a bit. That's a powerful front five they have.

I sound a bit gloomy - but one should not assume that a pessimist, i.e. a realist, loves his team any less.

JRant

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In a year where 3/4 of our provinces are in the heineken cup knockouts, winning two games in the 6 Nations is absolutely a failure.

Also our record in the Aviva stadium is also abysmal.

That might have something to do with it being a fairly brutal stadium. Restricted view seats are a disgrace in a brand new stadium. The North stand is completely ridiculous and every time the crowd starts to get going that stupid PA system comes on and drowns everyone out.

molloyjh

walshb wrote: »

Wales, who really should have made the WC final? Yes, I can see that is such a travesty. We lost to Scotland, what, twice in 13 meetings? Hell, shoot the lads. Wlaes were beaten by us for 20 years in Cardiff.

I am not just happy because we take the field against France and England. We have beaten England many times now. France are our tougest opposition. That sometimes happens in sport. A style is bad for another.

What would make you happy? I mean, we can't be expected to be the best all the time. I pointed out a statistic that you dismissed. Can you not give your team any credit and praise for this statistic?

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

Who cares about stuff that happened 12 or 13 years ago? What matters is this team and this coaching staff, who have only been successful in any way once in four attempts. All that when Irish provinces have been successful in 3 of those four seasons, 2 of which they won both the domestic and European competitions.

molloyjh

walshb wrote: »

The 4/5 season where we won 4 matches. The 6th season was 2009, where we won all matches. That is consistency, no matter what way you look at it.

2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 we won 4 matches.

So in other words once in the last 5 years....

nice_guy80

JRant wrote: »

That might have something to do with it being a fairly brutal stadium. Restricted view seats are a disgrace in a brand new stadium. The North stand is completely ridiculous and every time the crowd starts to get going that stupid PA system comes on and drowns everyone out.

think you'll find its mainly to do with the crowd who attend
its similar to the crow who attend all ireland finals in croke park
a lot of them don't usually fgo to matches and so have a passing interest

and yes, the aviva is a poor stadium, for the price tag involved.

walshb

molloyjh wrote: »

So in other words once in the last 5 years....

Yes, in last 5 years, we won a slam. There are 6 teams in the championship. So, we won a slam in the last 5 years. Italy didn't win, Scotland didn't, and England didn't win a slam either.

The_Kew_Tour

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Actually it's happened only once

Before two weeks ago we had never even lead at half time in Paris during the six nations

But don't let facts get in the way of a rant

I was not just talking about France but other teams also down the years.

No rant, but facts.:rolleyes:

The_Kew_Tour

teednab-el wrote: »

Unfortuntely there are no trophies on offer for being 2nd in the 6nations years in years out.

Triple Crown?:D

Mrdata

I think if we can stay level or even be a few point up by half time it's ours. If we are behind even if only by 5 it's over

JRant

nice_guy80 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

That might have something to do with it being a fairly brutal stadium. Restricted view seats are a disgrace in a brand new stadium. The North stand is completely ridiculous and every time the crowd starts to get going that stupid PA system comes on and drowns everyone out.

think you'll find its mainly to do with the crowd who attend
its similar to the crow who attend all ireland finals in croke park
a lot of them don't usually fgo to matches and so have a passing interest

and yes, the aviva is a poor stadium, for the price tag involved.

That would seem a tad unfair on the majority of supporters tbh. There is a small element of that but that PA system really needs to be turned off during the game. Wrt to All-Ireland finals, the atmosphere is completely different and something else altogether to experience.

molloyjh

walshb wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

So in other words once in the last 5 years....

Yes, in last 5 years, we won a slam. There are 6 teams in the championship. So, we won a slam in the last 5 years. Italy didn't win, Scotland didn't, and England didn't win a slam either.

That's it. Keep comparing us to the 2 whipping boys and an English side that has been very average for years. Don't ever expect any more than average (or below) from this talented bunch of players.

Personally I believe these guys are world beaters so I expect a lot more. Even by your own standards and measurements though we were better under EOS than DK. Just look at the number of times we won 4 or more under him. And our provinces have only gotten stronger since then...

.ak

Walsh, winning matches in the 6Nations is a terrible statistic to be using for your argument. With all due respect to Scotland and Italy.. everyone beats them. So, 50% of the time we beat the two other teams that pose a threat.

Eh... That's a terrible stat to be fair.

.ak

In my opinion, considering the talent we have, we should be doing what Wales are doing. Getting to semi's in the WC atleast and being favourites for 6N and internationals - and play a game that utilized our talent to its full potential.

corny

walshb wrote: »

What would make you happy? I mean, we can't be expected to be the best all the time. I pointed out a statistic that you dismissed. Can you not give your team any credit and praise for this statistic?

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

Simply put and similar to many on here i'd be happy if i felt the 15 players representing us played to the limit of their abilities. If that means we finish first or last i wouldn't care.

Unfortunately due to coaching, terrible player selection and a certain listlessness i haven't felt like that since early 2007 and i include 2009, victorious and all, in that.

I am absolutely certain that if a man like Jo Schmidt was in charge and settled in the job Ireland would hit close to their potential and would have swept aside all before them this year in the 6N's. Its the underachievement thats soul destroying not the losing.

The_Kew_Tour

If anyone wants proof that Ireland have underachieved then you only have to see that "if" Wales beat France to win the GS, then they will have won more grand slams in past 7 years then our entire history, which lets be honest stinks.

The "small population" excuse that gets dribbled out is so ridiculously offensive to the players that we have.

Imagine explaining to Katie Taylor, that though she's at the very very top of her sport, she should just be happy to take part in the Olympics?

Imagine saying the same to Sonia O'Sullivan.

The fact that we've assembled a team of players that we have is one "miracle" when looking at the probabilities of becoming a pro rugby player given our population size. HOWEVER, the probability of us having a team that can compete is now part of a completely different equation when you consider that that "miracle" has happened.

It's like saying that the guy on Deal or no Deal with the 100k box and 250k box only left, that he should be happy to take ~ €3,000 for the deal because when the game started the average person only makes about €3,000.

desertcircus

walshb wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

So in other words once in the last 5 years....

Yes, in last 5 years, we won a slam. There are 6 teams in the championship. So, we won a slam in the last 5 years. Italy didn't win, Scotland didn't, and England didn't win a slam either.

The English, Scots and Italians didn't win three of the last four trophies at the next level below Test rugby.

Foxtrol

JRant wrote: »

That might have something to do with it being a fairly brutal stadium. Restricted view seats are a disgrace in a brand new stadium. The North stand is completely ridiculous and every time the crowd starts to get going that stupid PA system comes on and drowns everyone out.

That’s a ridiculous attempt at an excuse for poor Irish performances. It's the same stadium when Leinster play there and look at the record they have.

OldRio

It seems some posters are still stuck in the 'plucky underdog' world
You know the 'right lads, lets turn up and give it a lash' mentality.

Our provinces win the European Cup.
We have some of the best players, coached and trained at their clubs to perfection (or near as damn it)
Collectively and individually they are producing some of the best rugby I have seen. (Provincial)
BUT
We are moving nowhere as a country. Treading water at best.
Until the IRFU address the difference between provincial displays/results and country displays/results, the talent we have, will/is being wasted.

We will look back and say 'if only'
Annoys the feck out of me.

JustinDee

OldRio wrote: »

Our provinces win the European Cup.
We have some of the best players, coached and trained at their clubs to perfection (or near as damn it)
Collectively and individually they are producing some of the best rugby I have seen. (Provincial) . . . etc

In other words, they're winning.
If, for whatever reason, they don't produce the goods in the next rounds or even next season, sit back and watch people turn on them while moaning about every little detail, qualified or otherwise.

That's sport for you. Way it always has been and always will be.

OldRio

Indeed Justin they are winning at the moment.
That is not the point I was making.

Why are Ireland not reaching their potential ??

The_Kew_Tour

I think what summed up all what is wrong with Irish rugby was when Ireland beat England last year.

We boasted about how we destroyed England and gave them all they wanted, but at end of day who ended up going home with the silverware? and nobody will remember anything else apart from ourselves in few years either other then who won the competition.

Irish media and supporters have laughed in the faces of the Welsh and English for quite some time yet they have won more then us.

Can you imagine if it were the other way around?

Fishooks12

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I think what summed up all what is wrong with Irish rugby was when Ireland beat England last year.

We boasted about how we destroyed England and gave them all they wanted, but at end of day who ended up going home with the silverware? and nobody will remember anything else apart from ourselves in few years either other then who won the competition.

Irish media and supporters have laughed in the faces of the Welsh and English for quite some time yet they have won more then us.

Can you imagine if it were the other way around?

The English were the ones who were already celebrating the grand slam

Rememeber the ad? A lot of English media were under the impression that all they had to do was show up

We bet them out the gate, and boy was it sweet

The_Kew_Tour

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The English were the ones who were already celebrating the grand slam

Rememeber the ad? A lot of English media were under the impression that all they had to do was show up

We bet them out the gate, and boy was it sweet

Oh ya it was fantastic don't get me wrong, but I rather ended up with Trophy.

They were still best team last year and Ireland beating them did not change that.

Tox56

I don't really blame them for the ad, if they wanted to release it soon after the match, they had no choice but to pre-record.

It didn't look good but I don't necessarily think it was arrogant.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't really blame them for the ad, if they wanted to release it soon after the match, they had no choice but to pre-record.

It didn't look good but I don't necessarily think it was arrogant.

Kind of sums up that group of English players

They should have been preparing for the game rather than shooting ads in the run up to the game

BoardsMember

People should listen to Emmet Byrne if they really want to understand why the provinces can do as well as they do, while Ireland would seem to under-perform. It's a really interesting theory, and makes a lot of sense. Essentially, what he says is that the effect of training with the same people day in day out, and the effect of having good & consistent coaching with the same players day in day out can result in the total being better than the sum of the parts.

On the other hand, wrt the international scene, he reckons that at international level it is less relevant how good the coaching is, the primary thing is how exceptional the player is. When a player plays well for a province it can be a combination of his natural ability plus the coaching and the familiarity with systems and those players around him week in and week out. The only thing that really matters at international level is the natural ability of the player. So as the standard goes up, the more obvious is the basic gap in basic ability & skills.

I'm not paraphrasing him too well here, or doing him justice, maybe someone else can help out if they have heard him go through it. It makes a lot of sense when you listen to him, he's a brilliant analyst in my humble opinion.

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Kind of sums up that group of English players

They should have been preparing for the game rather than shooting ads in the run up to the game

It wasn't their choice.

Deano7788

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Kind of sums up that group of English players

They should have been preparing for the game rather than shooting ads in the run up to the game

In fairness, they were probably just doing what they were told to do.