England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

teednab-el

Fishooks12 wrote: »

teednab-el wrote: »

I still think the white jersey will bring the best out of the Irish. Still if Ireland win it won't mean sweet fcuk all to us. We are not going to win the 6nations so might be best for us to get a bit of a hiding to get rid of current management.

If I hear this once more I think I'll stop posting here

So might be best for us to get a bit of a hiding to get rid of current management.

There you go that should do it for you.

bm1993

walshb wrote: »

It has a lot of relevance, and the fact that we, a nation of 5-6 million, can beat and be competitive with a nation like England and France, who have far more going for them in terms of pool depth, money and devotion to the game, says a lot about our talent as a small country. Rugby is a massively influential and important game to England.

It's not near as important here. So, I think it's ****e not to acknowledge this fact. Some folks here seem to think we should be entitled to beat these bigger countries. And, when we don't, we get slated. It's ludicrous.

BTW, rugby in NZ is every bit as sacred and revered as GAA is here. Same for Wales and Rugby.

Wake up, and be grateful that this country can beat and can perform ever so well against the likes of England. Face it, we are not the best, and shouldn't really be either. And, it has nothing to do with settling for second best. We simply aren't the best rugby team in the world, but we sure can hold our own and we always put up a great fight.

Last year we did beat them well, when many said they would beat us. But, they too have hammered us many times, so why is it that we should feel down and annoyed and despondent should we fail to beat them at twickenham on Saturday?

If countries like England and NZ took up GAA as a secondary or third sport, and were competitive with us, then maybe I'd get worried a bit. But, we as a rugby nation are not near as devoted as NZ or England are to the game.

You're missing the point. Of course it has relevance in the overall scheme of things but it has no relevance to the game on Saturday. IMO our 15 is better than their 15 and the fact that there's an extra 45 million plus people in England won't count for a lot.

danthefan

teednab-el wrote: »

I still think the white jersey will bring the best out of the Irish. Still if Ireland win it won't mean sweet fcuk all to us. We are not going to win the 6nations so might be best for us to get a bit of a hiding to get rid of current management.

Sometimes I have such seditious thoughts in the build up to the game but when the game starts I could never, ever cheer for the other side. I hope we feckin' hammer them. Just not sure about our chances.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

It has a lot of relevance, and the fact that we, a nation of 5-6 million, can beat and be competitive with a nation like England and France, who have far more going for them in terms of pool depth, money and devotion to the game, says a lot about our talent as a small country. Rugby is a massively influential and important game to England.

The population of the country is fairly irrelevant, especially when it comes to a minority sport such as rugby (and it is a minority sport everywhere except NZ).

The number of senior male, and moreso professional players, is the relevant statistic. England and France are on top there as well, but it's not to the same degree as simply population. Rugby in Ireland is quite strong and we should be on a level playing field with England and France. And we are with England, but we've always struggled with France for some reason.

It's just insulting to imply we should be happy just to be able to compete with big countries.

walshb

Fishooks12 wrote: »

No but we win many more medals than countries with much bigger populations than us in boxing. And boxing is not exactly a hugely popular sport here

Kind of puts a hole in your theory

what theory? We win some we lose some. Big deal. If not being all that upset or bewildered because England manage to beat us at rugby in twickenham is me "having an inferiority complex," well, what can I say?

Fishooks12

teednab-el wrote: »

So might be best for us to get a bit of a hiding to get rid of current management.

There you go that should do it for you.

What kind of "fan" wants to see his national team get a hiding is beyond me

Anyway, I'm no fan of Kindeys but I haven't been able to fault him since the Welsh game in his tactics

Tox56

Compare the probable line-ups, and rate the opposite numbers:

Rob Kearney - Ben Foden
Tommy Bowe - Chris Ashton
Keith Earls - Manu Tuilagi
Gordon D'Arcy - Brad Barritt Evs
Andrew Trimble - Charlie Sharples
Jonathan Sexton - Owen Farrell
Eoin Reddan - Lee Dickson
Cian Healy - Alex Corbisiero
Rory Best - Dylan Hartley
Mike Ross - Dan Cole
Donncha O'Callaghan - Mouritz Botha
Donnacha Ryan - Geoff Parling
Stephen Ferris - Tom Croft
Sean O'Brien - Chris Robshaw
Jamie Heaslip - Ben Morgan

That is only my opinion, but it is fairly conclusive. I am confident we have the better players. The English population, or whether it is our first sport or not, is irrelevant.

We shouldn't be "entitled" to beat these bigger countries, but we should be pretty confident even away from home. We probably have a similar amount of better players when we play Scotland, why should we be intimidated because England has a bigger population?

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

Compare the probable line-ups, and rate the opposite numbers:

Rob Kearney - Ben Foden
Tommy Bowe - Chris Ashton
Keith Earls - Manu Tuilagi
Gordon D'Arcy - Brad Barritt Evs
Andrew Trimble - Charlie Sharples
Jonathan Sexton - Owen Farrell
Eoin Reddan - Lee Dickson
Cian Healy - Alex Corbisiero
Rory Best - Dylan Hartley
Mike Ross - Dan Cole
Donncha O'Callaghan - Mouritz Botha
Donnacha Ryan - Geoff Parling
Stephen Ferris - Tom Croft
Sean O'Brien - Chris Robshaw
Jamie Heaslip - Ben Morgan

That is only my opinion, but it is fairly conclusive. I am confident we have the better players. The English population, or whether it is our first sport or not, is irrelevant.

We shouldn't be "entitled" to beat these bigger countries, but we should be pretty confident even away from home. We probably have a similar amount of better players when we play Scotland, why should we be intimidated because England has a bigger population?

Agree 100 per cent, bar one

DOC is a better lock than Botha. I think he's one of the worst players I've ever seen in an English jersey

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Agree 100 per cent, bar one

DOC is a better lock than Botha. I think he's one of the worst players I've ever seen in an English jersey

I haven't seen much of him in the recent games, but I thought he was excellent v Scotland.

walshb

Podge_irl wrote: »

The population of the country is fairly irrelevant, especially when it comes to a minority sport such as rugby (and it is a minority sport everywhere except NZ).
.

Wales? Minority sport there?

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

I haven't seen much of him in the recent games, but I thought he was excellent v Scotland.

Infairness he got through an amount of work while seemingly injured but apart from that I really don't think he'd make any other England team but this one

walshb

bm1993 wrote: »

You're missing the point. Of course it has relevance in the overall scheme of things but it has no relevance to the game on Saturday. IMO our 15 is better than their 15 and the fact that there's an extra 45 million plus people in England won't count for a lot.

I am not just talking about Saturday. Like it or not, all is not a level playing field in the 6 nations. If it was, the Italians would be winning a lot more.

Anyone saying that rugby is the same here as it is in Wales, France or England is off the mark. There are clear differences. And, we winning and holding our own, (number 2 team since 6 nations began) is something we should be proud of.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

Wales? Minority sport there?

It's well behind soccer in terms of participation. Cardiff City gets much bigger crowds then the Blues ever do.

However, that's somewhat missing the point. Ireland didn't lose to Wales because the sport is bigger in Wales then it is here.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

Anyone saying that rugby is the same here as it is in Wales, France or England is off the mark. There are clear differences. And, we winning and holding our own, (number 2 team since 6 nations began) is something we should be proud of.

Indeed, we have a much better set up and greater control over our players then the English and French.

Also, number 2 team since the 6N began in terms of match wins, but 4th in terms of championship wins. That's a crap record.

walshb

Podge_irl wrote: »

Indeed, we have a much better set up and greater control over our players then the English and French.

Also, number 2 team since the 6N began in terms of match wins, but 4th in terms of championship wins. That's a crap record.

So, we really should be the number 1 team?

Crap record? That we have more wins than England and Wales since 2000.

That really is some arrogance.

I don't claim to be an expert, so maybe you could explain this much better set up that we have over England and France.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

Crap record? That we have more wins than England and Wales since 2000.

And fewer championships. Which is the only record that actually matters. Northampton won as many games as Leinster in the HEC last year but that hardly matters.

Irish international players play fewer games, are conditioned to reach their peak for the international games, are given time to attend international training camps throughout the season.

And no, I don't expect us to be the number 1 team consistently. I DO expect us to actually challenge for it every now and again. Not for people to feel we're lucky to be coming close to the overwhelming might of France and England. We have the worst RWC record of all the 6N except Italy and the 4th worst 6N record.

walshb

In so many of our matches, and 6N matches between the top 4, there is a bounce of a ball, a score here and there, a dodgy ref decision that decides the games. That is the nature of the game sometimes at the top. Why can't folks just be happy that we can win, be competitive and always hold our heads up? I would love if we were winning slams and championships every year, but get with reality, there are 5 other teams who are killing themselves to prevent this. Sometimes the criticism because we lose a match by a score or two is juts unjustified.

Brendan97

My XV against England
15.Kearney - unreal form, even in average form he is world class, obvious starter
14.Bowe - Obvious choice
13.Earls - I detested the thought of him starting 13 but he has improved, although it would've been hard to get worse, he has become a decent centre
12.Darcy - Brings hardly nothing in attack but is as solid as a rock in defence, he kept fofana in his box against france
11.Trimble - obvious choice
10.Sexton - obvious choice, and i wouldn't like him to be moved to 12 either, he is an out-half
9.Reddan - We need him at SH to play an attacking, high tempo game that will ultimately break defences, and the though of TOL playing gives me nightmares
8.Heaslip - not his best year but still doing alright, he is fast to the ruck
7.? - not really sure tbh, POM is playing really well but its hard to leave SOB out, i would be more inclined to POM though
6.Ferris - obvious choice
5.Tuohy - immense for ulster this last 18mths and him ball carrying is unmatched in ireland at the moment i would pick him over anyone in ireland bar POC
4.Ryan - played very well last week, a good all-round lock, tuohy and ryan are streets ahead of DOC
3.Ross - obvious choice
2.Best - obvious choice
1.Healy - obvious choice

danthefan

walshb wrote: »

In so many of our matches, and 6N matches between the top 4, there is a bounce of a ball, a score here and there, a dodgy ref decision that decides the games. That is the nature of the game sometimes at the top Why can't folks just be happy that we can win, be competitive and always hold our heads up? I would love if we were winning slams and championships ever year, but get with reality, there are 5 other teams who are killing themselves to prevent this. Sometimes the criticism because we lose a match by a score or two is juts unjustified.

Ah sure we'll just head out and give it a lash so.

walshb

Podge_irl wrote: »

And fewer championships. Which is the only record that actually matters. Northampton won as many games as Leinster in the HEC last year but that hardly matters.

Irish international players play fewer games, are conditioned to reach their peak for the international games, are given time to attend international training camps throughout the season.

And no, I don't expect us to be the number 1 team consistently. I DO expect us to actually challenge for it every now and again.

Yes, and we do challenge. Like I said, many times it's a bounce of a ball that decides a match, a championship etc. So, what is your issue?

Don't have the stats at hand, but didn't we win 4 matches on several occasions in the 6N tournamnet? Close, but no cigar. That hardly deserves being labelled crap.

Edit: 6 times since 2000 we have won 4 matches or more in the 6N and this recored is labeled crap? That is seriously competitive.

walshb

danthefan wrote: »

Ah sure we'll just head out and give it a lash so.

What does this mean? That reply to my post is off the mark. Do you soemhow feel we have to be number 1, or else it's just not enough, good enough, or god forbid, an inferiority complex? Are you saying that many games are NOT won and lost by a score here and there, a bounce of a ball, or a bit of good fortune, or a bad ref call?

Give it a lash? One could say that about all the teams. We are the second most successful in terms of wins.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and we do challenge. Like I said, many times it's a bounce of a ball that decides a match, a championship etc. So, what is your issue?.

We haven't realistically challenged for the 6N championship since we won it 3 seasons ago.

My issue is that the games we've lost weren't decided by the "bounce of a ball" they were decided by Ireland playing poorly. Losing home games to Wales and bloody Scotland is a problem.

I'm not going to be happy just cause Ireland were allowed take the field against France and England.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

Give it a lash? One could say that about all the teams. We are the second most successful in terms of wins.

No we're the FOURTH most succesful in terms of championship wins. Which is the ONLY relevant statistic.

Munster have more wins in the HEC then Leinster, and will even if Leinster win it this year. Course Leinster will have 3 championships, which is all anyone cares about.

irishbucsfan

In a year where 3/4 of our provinces are in the heineken cup knockouts, winning two games in the 6 Nations is absolutely a failure.

Also our record in the Aviva stadium is also abysmal.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In a year where 3/4 of our provinces are in the heineken cup knockouts, winning two games in the 6 Nations is absolutely a failure.

Also our record in the Aviva stadium is also abysmal.

I don't think Leinster have lost there yet have they?

walshb

Podge_irl wrote: »

We haven't realistically challenged for the 6N championship since we won it 3 seasons ago.

My issue is that the games we've lost weren't decided by the "bounce of a ball" they were decided by Ireland playing poorly. Losing home games to Wales and bloody Scotland is a problem.

I'm not going to be happy just cause Ireland were allowed take the field against France and England.

Wales, who really should have made the WC final? Yes, I can see that is such a travesty. We lost to Scotland, what, twice in 13 meetings? Hell, shoot the lads. Wlaes were beaten by us for 20 years in Cardiff.

I am not just happy because we take the field against France and England. We have beaten England many times now. France are our tougest opposition. That sometimes happens in sport. A style is bad for another.

What would make you happy? I mean, we can't be expected to be the best all the time. I pointed out a statistic that you dismissed. Can you not give your team any credit and praise for this statistic?

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

irishbucsfan

walshb wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

We haven't realistically challenged for the 6N championship since we won it 3 seasons ago.

My issue is that the games we've lost weren't decided by the "bounce of a ball" they were decided by Ireland playing poorly. Losing home games to Wales and bloody Scotland is a problem.

I'm not going to be happy just cause Ireland were allowed take the field against France and England.

Wales, who really should have made the WC final? Yes, I can see that is such a travesty. We lost to Scotland, what, twice in 13 meetings? Hell, shoot the lads. Wlaes were beaten by us for 20 years in Cardiff.

I am not just happy because we take the field against France and England. We have beaten England many times now. France are our tougest opposition. That sometimes happens in sport. A style is bad for another.

What would make you happy? I mean, we can't be expected to be the best all the time. I pointed out a statistic that you dismissed. Can you not give your team any credit and praise for this statistic?

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

4 wins in a season would make me happy. We should be aiming for 5 every year though.

Podge_irl

walshb wrote: »

What would make you happy? I mean, we can't be expected to be the best all the time. I pointed out a statistic that you dismissed. Can you not give your team any credit and praise for this statistic?

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

An utterly irrelevant statistic. It's a championship. We're the fourth most successful team in the 6N championship.

We haven't gone to the end looking for a championship since we won it, we've always been already out of the running in the last week.

I don't consider a championship with any loss at home as a particularly good one, as Ireland SHOULD be winning those games.

danthefan

walshb wrote: »

I also pointed out that on 5 or 6 times we were there at the end looking for a championship, which eluded us. That then is called CRAP? That to me is a terrible way to describe the results of our team over the past 13 seasons.

What seasons were they?

walshb

danthefan wrote: »

What seasons were they?

The 4/5 season where we won 4 matches. The 6th season was 2009, where we won all matches. That is consistency, no matter what way you look at it.

2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 we won 4 matches.