England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

dougieruggie

walshb wrote: »

Yes, happy about any win. I never said I was happy with a loss. This is it. You can't be happy with even a win. You wanna' take the good out of it, and makes excuses that the "opposition are no good."

O.K I said I wouldn't reply but I am because I think your misconstruing what I am saying. I am happy about beating Italy and Scotland and they were decent wins, HOWEVER I will not be happy if we JUST beat Italy and Scotland this tournament especially considering both games were at home. I also don't think Italy and Scotland are in the same category as New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Argentina, England, France or Wales and thus I dont think a win over them is something to get especially excited about.

And, losing a match to Wales, and a draw in France is "a new low"
Your memory does not stretch that far if this logic is being applied.

I never said losing to Wales and a draw in France is a new low. I said being happy with only wins over Scotland and Italy (the two weakest teams in the tournament and at home) was a new low. And I was wrong to use the term a new low (although I think people know what I meant with the term, I didn't expect to be pulled up about games that happened 15 years ago)

Cpt_Blackbeard

dougieruggie wrote: »

I am not moaning about beating Scotland and Italy. I am moaning about people being happy with JUST beating Scotland and Italy at home.

I really do think the french and Welsh public would moan if they beat just Italy and Scotland in a tournament.

But your entitled to disagree. I've made my point, personally I think Irish rugby should be aspiring for more than wins over Italy and Scotland. You think we should be happy about wins over Scotland and Italy. Lets agree to disagree and not take over this thread.

Of course we should aspire to more than 2 wins in any given championship, but even if we lose to England away, this championship won't be a failure. Wales are a better team than us and have better players in most positions around the field. France are consistently our bogey team and a draw away in Paris is a good result. That's before you factor in the poor officiating that could have cost us both games.

The_Kew_Tour

If 1 Grand Slam in Ireland Golden Generation of 10-12 years is seen as a success to some, then I sure never want to see the bad times.

Imo and I am going to cause a little bit of a storm maybe with some, but Ireland are no nearer to winning a World Cup now then they were 20 years ago.

Ireland made balls of it against Scotland in 2001. In 2005 we had great chance and should have won the Slam, and yet ****ed it up against France when they really should have been beaten, and rolled over against Wales.

Rolled over far too easy against France in 2006 and 2007 we could not hang onto a lead in last minute at Croker. 2008 was just write off from the start.

Then GS year which was great and all, but when people talk about us getting luck we got our fair share of it that season(although deserved).

Then 2010 we lose to Scotland and crushed by France and last year one good performance against England hides the cracks of a disappointing campaign.

This is not forgetting 2 horrendous World Cups and a huge disappointment in getting beat in QF last year, and not to mention been stuffed by 40-50 points by NZ from time to time a team we have never beaten in something like 27 attempts(can you imagine any other team in any other sport with record like that would be acceptable).

Now all I highlighted was the negatives, but for a team that gets such high praise, i just don't think it's something they deserve.

Sick to death of hearing people say they gave it there all, I am sure they do, just like im sure Carlow GAA team gives it their all too, but there still crap.(Ireland better then that, but get my drift)

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Of course we should aspire to more than 2 wins in any given championship, but even if we lose to England away, this championship won't be a failure. Wales are a better team than us and have better players in most positions around the field. France are consistently our bogey team and a draw away in Paris is a good result. That's before you factor in the poor officiating that could have cost us both games.

I disagree with that, and we were at home.

dougieruggie

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Of course we should aspire to more than 2 wins in any given championship, but even if we lose to England away, this championship won't be a failure. Wales are a better team than us and have better players in most positions around the field. France are consistently our bogey team and a draw away in Paris is a good result. That's before you factor in the poor officiating that could have cost us both games.

sorry but 2/5 wins is a failure.

dougieruggie

Actually does anyone know Kidney's win to lose ratio since hes taken over? Just curious.

walshb

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If 1 Grand Slam in Ireland Golden Generation of 10-12 years is seen as a success to some, then I sure never want to see the bad times.

Imo and I am going to cause a little bit of a storm maybe with some, but Ireland are no nearer to winning a World Cup now then they were 20 years ago.

Ireland made balls of it against Scotland in 2001. In 2005 we had great chance and should have won the Slam, and yet ****ed it up against France when they really should have been beaten, and rolled over against Wales.

Rolled over far too easy against France in 2006 and 2007 we could not hang onto a lead in last minute at Croker. 2008 was just write off from the start.

Then GS year which was great and all, but when people talk about us getting luck we got our fair share of it that season(although deserved).

Then 2010 we lose to Scotland and crushed by France and last year one good performance against England hides the cracks of a disappointing campaign.

This is not forgetting 2 horrendous World Cups and a huge disappointment in getting beat in QF last year, and not to mention been stuffed by 40-50 points by NZ from time to time a team we have never beaten in something like 27 attempts(can you imagine any other team in any other sport with record like that would be acceptable).

Now all I highlighted was the negatives, but for a team that gets such high praise, i just don't think it's something they deserve.

Sick to death of hearing people say they gave it there all, I am sure they do, just like im sure Carlow GAA team gives it their all too, but there still crap.(Ireland better then that, but get my drift)

Usually the praise is followed with "the opposition was no good." Where is this high praise? And, what would constitue high praise in your eyes? Winning a WC? Winning a GS every year?

Carlow may well be crap at GAA, but Ireland are far from crap at rugby. Silly silly analogy.

MungBean

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ok, apart from Farrell, who in that English side has the potential to be close to a world class player?

Fodens up there when in form but not at the minute

Even though they dont have the players in every position they are pretty cohesive as a side for some reason. They are like the opposite of Ireland. Where we have the players to be beating Wales and France we just cant, England look like a side that shouldnt be even close to beating them yet they pull out the performances. They are a decent team even though they dont look it on paper.

walshb

This is not the best English side there has been, but still a very decent side, and at home, a tougher ask than would be at Aviva. A win at twickenham will be magnificent. Any win over England at anything is magnificent in my eyes. Enjoy these wins, savour them, because usually we're on the losing end.
That is wht I am very proud of our record vs. England since 2000.

8-4 in wins. That is a superb record to have against England. Superb.

dougieruggie

Since Kidney won the Grandslam Ireland have played 32 games.

We have won 16 of those 32 games. 8 of those wins include wins against Russia, America, Italy (twice), Fiji, Samoa and Scotland (twice).

Is that good enough?

Fishooks12

dougieruggie wrote: »

Since Kidney won the Grandslam Ireland have played 32 games.

We have won 16 of those 32 games. 8 of those wins include wins against Russia, America, Italy (twice), Fiji, Samoa and Scotland (twice).

Is that good enough?

They also include, South Africa, England, France and Australia

Kindeys record isn't great but why highlight just the victories over the minnows? Not very impartial is it

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

They also include, South Africa, England, France and Australia

Kindeys record isn't great but why highlight just the victories over the minnows? Not very impartial is it

Those wins show us the level this team can play at, but don't, more often than not.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

Those wins show us the level this team can play at, but don't, more often than not.

I agree !

dougieruggie

Fishooks12 wrote: »

They also include, South Africa, England, France and Australia

Kindeys record isn't great but why highlight just the victories over the minnows? Not very impartial is it

I am saying that in 24 games against top opposition we've won 8 times.

We haven't beaten France since the GS. The 8 wins are over Wales, England (twice), South Africa, Australia, Argentina. Not sure who the 8th team is but its not France. Of those 8 wins, only one, against England could be considered an away game.

CIARAN_BOYLE

dougieruggie wrote: »

Actually does anyone know Kidney's win to lose ratio since hes taken over? Just curious.

09 6Ns GS 5/0/0
09 ST NA 2/0/0
08/09 total 7/0/0

09 AI 2/1/0
10 6N 3/0/2
10 ST 0/0/2
09/10 total 5/1/4

10 AI 2/0/2
11 6N 3/0/2
10/11 total 5/0/4

11 WCWU 0/0/4
11 WC 4/0/1
12 6N 2/1/1
11/12 total 6/1/6

Total record 23/2/14

Counted are all full cap tests, many like to strip out minnows USA(2), Russia(1), Canada(1), Italy(5), Fiji(1) and Samoa(1) to get a stick to beat Kidney with. If done that would leave Kidney with a record 12/2/14.

dougieruggie

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

09 6Ns GS 5/0/0
09 ST NA 2/0/0
08/09 total 7/0/0

09 AI 2/1/0
10 6N 4/0/1
10 ST 0/0/2
09/10 total 6/1/3

10 AI 2/0/2
11 6N 3/0/2
10/11 total 5/0/2

11 WCWU 0/0/4
11 WC 4/0/1
12 6N 2/1/1
11/12 total 6/1/6

Total record 24/2/11

Counted are all full cap tests, many like to strip out minnows USA(2), Russia(1), Canada(1), Italy(5), Fiji(1) and Samoa(1) to get a stick to beat Kidney with. If done that would leave Kidney with a record 13/2/11.

Very poor record considering how many of those games were against minnows and thats even including the wonder year of 2009!

irishbucsfan

We didn't win 4 games in the 2010 6 nations did we...?

MungBean

Omitted 2 losses from the 10/11 season there too so the loss count stands at 13 not 11.

darragh_haven

dougieruggie wrote: »

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

09 6Ns GS 5/0/0
09 ST NA 2/0/0
08/09 total 7/0/0

09 AI 2/1/0
10 6N 4/0/1
10 ST 0/0/2
09/10 total 6/1/3

10 AI 2/0/2
11 6N 3/0/2
10/11 total 5/0/2

11 WCWU 0/0/4
11 WC 4/0/1
12 6N 2/1/1
11/12 total 6/1/6

Total record 24/2/11

Counted are all full cap tests, many like to strip out minnows USA(2), Russia(1), Canada(1), Italy(5), Fiji(1) and Samoa(1) to get a stick to beat Kidney with. If done that would leave Kidney with a record 13/2/11.

Very poor record considering how many of those games were against minnows and thats even including the wonder year of 2009!

Please stop moaning. I'd say nothing could be right for ya

The_Kew_Tour

walshb wrote: »

Usually the praise is followed with "the opposition was no good." Where is this high praise? And, what would constitue high praise in your eyes? Winning a WC? Winning a GS every year?

Carlow may well be crap at GAA, but Ireland are far from crap at rugby. Silly silly analogy.

Not every year but they should have won Championship at least 4 times over that period.

Fair enough teams who are in contention will make few cock ups from time to time no problem with that, the problem is its happened far too often.

This notion that we are small country is biggest load of horse crap. NZ and Wales combined would be around same population as ours.

If you want to be happy with under achieving year in year out that's fair enough.

But I would like more from a team that has been considered "World Class" in the past.

11 points up in Paris and they could not finish the job off shows a lot of mental weakness to me. Its not good enough for team that seems be seen as Great.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We didn't win 4 games in the 2010 6 nations did we...?

MungBean wrote: »

Omitted 2 losses from the 10/11 season there too so the loss count stands at 13 not 11.

Thanks fixed now

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We didn't win 4 games in the 2010 6 nations did we...?

No, we lost to Scotland and France.

teednab-el

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If 1 Grand Slam in Ireland Golden Generation of 10-12 years is seen as a success to some, then I sure never want to see the bad times.

Imo and I am going to cause a little bit of a storm maybe with some, but Ireland are no nearer to winning a World Cup now then they were 20 years ago.

Ireland made balls of it against Scotland in 2001. In 2005 we had great chance and should have won the Slam, and yet ****ed it up against France when they really should have been beaten, and rolled over against Wales.

Rolled over far too easy against France in 2006 and 2007 we could not hang onto a lead in last minute at Croker. 2008 was just write off from the start.

Then GS year which was great and all, but when people talk about us getting luck we got our fair share of it that season(although deserved).

Then 2010 we lose to Scotland and crushed by France and last year one good performance against England hides the cracks of a disappointing campaign.

This is not forgetting 2 horrendous World Cups and a huge disappointment in getting beat in QF last year, and not to mention been stuffed by 40-50 points by NZ from time to time a team we have never beaten in something like 27 attempts(can you imagine any other team in any other sport with record like that would be acceptable).

Now all I highlighted was the negatives, but for a team that gets such high praise, i just don't think it's something they deserve.

Sick to death of hearing people say they gave it there all, I am sure they do, just like im sure Carlow GAA team gives it their all too, but there still crap.(Ireland better then that, but get my drift)

Tottally agree with all of this. Ireland don't have the balls or arrogance to win grand slams and we were damn lucky to win in 2009. Thank you Steven Jones. Look back through the years. We get close in 2001 and Scotland hammer us. In 2003 we played great rugby and a stupid Martin Johnson incident fcuked up our game and we get a hiding at HOME. In 2004 we had grand slam chance and blew it against France, same with 2006. Should have won in 2007 and can't hang on to a lead against FRANCE. 2009 almost slipped within our grasp and 2010 we loose to Scotland at home for triple crown. We are pathetic and I'm sick of our lack of achievement. If Wales England or France had those opportunities they would have taken most of them. We need good NZ coaches managing our setups, otherwise it will be more of the same from Ireland. Ireland a country with great players and little success. It's reality and fact.

Clegg

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

IMO the "Golden Genaration" were players like Hickie, Dempsey, Murphy, BOD, Stringer, Horgan, POC, etc. The Irish team right now isn't part of the so-called GG.

Fishooks12

Clegg wrote: »

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

In 8 years I reckon we'll be the dominant force in NH rugby, such is the talent we have coming through at underage level

teednab-el

Clegg wrote: »

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

As great as POC is for Ireland he was never in BOD's league for talent.

teednab-el

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

In 8 years I reckon we'll be the dominant force in NH rugby, such is the talent we have coming through at underage level

That translates to nothing at the highest level of rugby. Most of those players won't make the transistion or be good enough. It's a big step up.

Fishooks12

teednab-el wrote: »

That translates to nothing at the highest level of rugby. Most of those players won't make the transistion or be good enough. It's a big step up.

Jesus you really are the most negative poster here, how do you know who'll make it and who won't? Name some of the players you think won't make it and I'll name you ten who will and why

Clegg

teednab-el wrote: »

As great as POC is for Ireland he was never in BOD's league for talent.

BOD is undoubtedly the best player Ireland has had in the professional era. I'd still consider POC as being World Class when at his peak.

Although he still wasn't the best lock in the world even when at his best. Matfield and Thorn are the 2 outstanding locks of this generation imo.

teednab-el

Fishooks12 wrote: »

teednab-el wrote: »

That translates to nothing at the highest level of rugby. Most of those players won't make the transistion or be good enough. It's a big step up.

Jesus you really are the most negative poster here, how do you know who'll make it and who won't?

Well our underachievements of the past is a good enough reason as why I am negative about Irish rugby and you believe that's going to change sometime soon?