6 years jail for garlic scam

benway

You said murder. If you meant murder reduced to manslaughter, you should have said it.

And what, my heart is supposed to be bleeding for some cnut of a cute hoor gombeen man who fleeced the state out of €1.6m? And all those nasty lower working class scumbags free to go dropping yokes and slurping dutch gold of a Saturday night? Spare me.

ArmaniJeanss

zenno wrote: »

Murder changed to manslaughter. wake up will you.

Hows about not saying 'murderers have got less' when you actually mean lesser crimes than murder?

benway

zenno wrote: »

One law for the rich and one nasty law for the less well off.

You're having a laugh here. Someone who benefited from a €1.6m fraud over four years, who was a director of Ireland's largest veg supplier doesn't count as the rich now?

It's been one law for the rich, one law for the poor for too long in this country, that's why I'm hoping that this will signal the beginning of rule of law for everyone. Lest we forget, €250k dole fraud gets you 12 years.

zenno

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Hows about not saying 'murderers have got less' when you actually mean lesser crimes than murder?

all a murderer has to do is plead Guilty and his murder charge is lowered to manslaughter. don't get me started. and yes I hope his sentence is lowered accordingly soon.

wexie

benway wrote: »

You're having a laugh here. Someone who benefited from a €1.6m fraud over four years, who was a director of Ireland's largest veg supplier doesn't count as the rich now?

It's been one law for the rich, one law for the poor for too long in this country, that's why I'm hoping that this will signal the beginning of rule of law for everyone. Lest we forget, €250k dole fraud gets you 12 years.

yes and last time I checked anybody that committed 250K dole fraud :

1) wasnt exactly in a position to offer any repayments
2) didnt contribute sweet F*** all to the economy in terms of PRSI, income tax, employment etc etc etc.

I think the majority of people here fully understand what this man did is wrong and he should be punished, but a 6 year jail term and potentially running his company into the ground because of it wouldnt seem like the smart thing to do.

Either way, pointless debating this at this stage as most opinions seem to be fairly transfixed on 'IM RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, NOW F*** OFF'.

Which is hardly conducive to reasonable conversation.

benway

wexie wrote: »

a 6 year jail term and potentially running his company into the ground because of it wouldnt seem like the smart thing to do.

His family company is just fine. He's gone off the board of directors, it's still trading. You seem to be implying that people on the dole are a drain on society, but this guy fleeced us all of €1.6m. That's quite a drain in anyone's book. What about a bit of personal responsibility in the upper echelons as well?

The Central Criminal Court have made it clear that white collar criminals can expect jail terms for a while now.

Media999

If a junkie held up a post office and stole 1.5 million then got 6 years would you say thats "excessive" ??

Some serious bull**** in this thread. People constantly whinging about the rich getting away with everything. This happens and people call it excessive!!

**** all you hypocrites

Hell be tortured in prison for money. Wait until the junkies get him alone. Ring your bro there. We want 100k dropped off or your gonna die in prison.

Cicero

Media999 wrote: »

If a junkie held up a post office and stole 1.5 million then got 6 years would you say thats "excessive" ??

Some serious bull**** in this thread. People constantly whinging about the rich getting away with everything. This happens and people call it excessive!!

Eh...I think the point many are making in this thread is that such people get a lot less than 6 years...:pac:

round tower huntsman

if men on the dole doing a nixer to make ends meet are being chased down like bootlleggers at the very least i expect already rich gombeens to be punished hard for evading tax. this goon probably drank brandy and smoked cubans scorning people on the dole while he was looking for sneaky ways out of paying his already generous tax liabilities.

round tower huntsman

Media999 wrote: »

Hell be tortured in prison for money. Wait until the junkies get him alone. Ring your bro there. We want 100k dropped off or your gonna die in prison.

well at least thats something,thank god.

Media999

Cicero wrote: »

Eh...I think the point many are making in this thread is that such people get a lot less than 6 years...:pac:

Just so he can have 10 instead of 8.5 million in the bank maybe.

fryup

great to see that the art of cute whore'ism is still alive and well in ireland

Charlie would be proud

wexie

Media999 wrote: »

Wait until the junkies get him alone

They won't cause there all out on the bloody streets

Seifer

Judges have to be amongst the stupidest people in this country. They are so out of touch with reality it boggles the mind. Glorified arts students getting this kind of power is madness.

benway

wexie wrote: »

They won't cause there all out on the bloody streets

60% of Ireland's prisoners are heroin dependent, 75% are addicted to either drugs or alcohol. In many, many cases, they're in jail because of their addiction, pure and simple. So it wouldn't exactly be fair to say they're "all out on the bloody streets".

zenno wrote: »

all a murderer has to do is plead Guilty and his murder charge is lowered to manslaughter.

Not true, either. You can plead not guilty, or guilty of manslaughter and still be found guilty of murder. If you plead guilty to murder, then you're likely to be found guilty of murder, funny enough.

Please, get real.

Heckler

Today a man (with 50 previous convictions) can get a suspended sentence for beating another man half to death and some guy who cheats the customs gets 6 years in prison.

I would love to sit down with a judge or two and have them explain to me their logic in sentencing. Really. I can't understand how the DPP or Judiciary are not accountable for their decisions. It beggers belief.

gurramok

benway wrote: »

60% of Ireland's prisoners are heroin dependent, 75% are addicted to either drugs or alcohol. In many, many cases, they're in jail because of their addiction, pure and simple. So it wouldn't exactly be fair to say they're "all out on the bloody streets".

You never heard of the revolving door then. Still waiting on you justifying how jailing this man for 6 years will make me safer walking the streets.

benway

gurramok wrote: »

You never heard of the revolving door then. Still waiting on you justifying how jailing this man for 6 years will make me safer walking the streets.

If junkies make up 60% of the prison population, then how are they "all" out on the streets?

Anyway, missed you asking the first time - this sentence doesn't isn't about keeping the streets safe, it's about standards in the corporate sector - are you trying to tell me that corporate misfeasance isn't a massive problem in this country? Try telling it to the queues at the working abroad expos.

General deterrence is a valid aim in sentencing, McKechnie J covered this in depth in his decision in Duffy Motors, in the context of a prosecution under the Competition Acts, but the same principles apply. He took the view that things are getting to the point where, for a fine to be a deterrent, it would need to be in the order of tens of millions, and that prison sentences would be necessary.

The point is that the greedy ootraprenoors of Ireland need to become aware that they won't be able to pay their way out of getting caught cutting corners - they can pay up as well as take a substantial spell in the Joy to think about the error of their ways. As I keep saying, if the going rate for a €250k dole fraud is 12 years, then, given previous good character and other mitigating factors, 6 years for €1.6m seems about right. It's a very similar offence.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0722/1224301126078.html

I think there's an interesting compare/contrast with the boards thread about that case:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73415711

I'm certain that this sentence serves more of a purpose then sending an addict to jail for a couple of months for possession, rather than getting them in to a treatment program. Given the degree of indignation on this thread, I'd say that people have taken notice. Just hoping that it's affirmed on appeal.

Heckler wrote: »

Today a man (with 50 previous convictions) can get a suspended sentence for beating another man half to death and some guy who cheats the customs gets 6 years in prison.

I would love to sit down with a judge or two and have them explain to me their logic in sentencing. Really. I can't understand how the DPP or Judiciary are not accountable for their decisions. It beggers belief.

Are you talking about a specific case there, with the suspended sentence? If so, could you tell me the exact details?

The courts do explain themselves, that's why they produce written judgments, although generally not in the Circuit Court. If it's appealed, there may well be a written decision. But, the Central Criminal Court has previously made it clear that white collar criminals should expect jail time in the future, as a deterrent to the degree of corruption and cute hoorism that's ruined this country. Seems to me that the criteria in sentencing these cases are:

i) the gravity of the offences;
ii) the circumstances in which these offences were carried out;
iii) the nature of the offences;
iv) the continuing duration of their commission;
v) the role played by the accused in them;
vi) The accused's personal circumstances;
vii) the circumstances of the company;
viii) any aggravating or mitigating factor; and
ix) the principles of proportionality and totality.

Hope that helps.

dermo88

I think its a draconian sentence. Not even Singaporean courts impose sentences of such magnitude for a white collar crime of this nature, and you can compare if you wish. Nick Leeson went down for three years for his crime.

Personally I have a morally elastic view of taxation, in fact, frankly speaking I'm pretty hypocritical towards it. If there are ways of putting one over the system, I'll find it. However, I won't abuse welfare. I'd have a mild admiration for what I personally regard as 'mild' wide boy tactics. Thats the problem, its an Irish thing. But by stark contrast I have deep contempt for those who take it to extremes, such as Haughey, Fitzpatrick, Lowry, etc. The question is when do I go from thinking "thats okay", to "Bloody bastard, chancer, scum". I actually cannot answer that. If someone is a good employer and benefits the community and dodges a bit of tax, my view tends to be 'well.....fair enough'. But where is the line.....I can't define it myself. Noone can. At what point does someone building up a business go "I'll chance my arm for a few quid, and eventually its thousands, millions, billions.....it snowballs"

benway
I'm certain that this sentence serves more of a purpose then sending an addict to jail for a couple of months for possession, rather than getting them in to a treatment program. Given the degree of indignation on this thread, I'd say that people have taken notice. Just hoping that it's affirmed on appeal.

I've taken notice. Maybe its bravado on my part to say this, but if he has dealings with China, its fair to say the Judge can be 'dealt' with at some stage. I know in his shoes I'd get revenge, and due to the interracial nature and cross border nature of trade and contacts, it would be almost impossible to prove.

Addicts are generally harmless in themselves. Its when the addiction leads to disorder and violence and theft that the harm is done. As for the White collar crimes of this nature, its a message to the middle classes.

"Stay in your places peasants and don't get any bright ideas"

Or Djarkarta 50101 Dial Tommy Suharto. Solves your judicial problems with ease.

benway

dermo88 wrote: »

I'd have a mild admiration for what I personally regard as 'mild' wide boy tactics.

G'wan ya cute hoor ya. Sure it's only mild, I'd have done the same myself. This is the attitude that's gotten this fine country to where it is today. Fair play to ya, bass.

As for making oblique threats on the internet against a judge for having the balls to put away one of our finest gombeens, that's real smart as well.

:rolleyes:

dermo88

Well benway, I have no intention of finding out whether I will ever need them.....For jailtime, I reckon .....

Its worth it for around 2 Million a year. Once its never found. 1.6 Million for 6 years, its not worth the savings in earning power. And the revenue will be breathing down your neck for eternity. So is it really worth the risk. Thats the message being sent out. 6 years in this case does not really mean 6 years. It will be reduced for good behaviour. Likely he'll serve 3 years at most.

MOSSAD

Today's Indo reports that the same judge yesterday sentenced a young thug with 59 previous convictions to a 2 year suspended sentence for hijacking a car and threatening to beat the 12 yo boy who was in it waiting while his mother shopped.
To me this is more serious than the Begley case, so I'd love to see what the rationale is behind it.
The judge should be sacked, preferably after serving a week or two in Mountjoy. Might just be the trick to shift his ass from the ivory tower.
Watch the judiciary dig in on this one. Arrogant and completely out of touch with reality.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/teen-hijacked-car-to-arrive-at-court-in-time-3045867.html

benway

His brother Darren was jailed for 18 months last December for the same offence.

When Ms Buckley's son pulled down his window to tell them that it had just recently been clamped, Darren Farrell reached into the passenger window and opened the door lock.

He told the boy to get out or he would "batter" him and the two brothers drove off in the car.

Defence counsel John Berry said his client had a mild learning disability and a lower-than-average IQ.

Judge Nolan imposed an 18- month sentence, suspended in full for two years, and ordered that he undergo two years' probation supervision.

His brother robbed the car and made the threats, he went along with it. The brother got jailed, he got a suspended sentence, under the supervision of a probation officer.

Why is this being left out? It's almost like there's an agenda to smear the judge here.

reprazant

I find it strange that somebody who intentionally defrauds the state out of €1.6m over 6 years, that is over €250,000 a year, is getting sympathy from people. Just because it is about garlic.

If he had been shifting dodgy petrol or had been milking the social welfare out of a quarter of a million a year would people be supporting him? I think not. But because it is some as innocuous as garlic, fraud is ok.

There is a reason why justice is blind. Fraud is fraud, full stop. I don't understand who people are arguing otherwise. I doubt people would say crap if it was about social welfare.

dermo88

MOSSAD

Mountjoy is too nice, and two weeks too long.

I think a shorter sharper stab at a sample is two days in a Thai prison, and I've been told that they are not to be wished on your worse enemy.

Maybe there is more that meets the eye on this story. It fills column inches and looks emotive. As the Judge stated himself.

"It gives me no joy to jail a decent man"

But also, excessive taxation has always caused problems whereever it is imposed, and there are times that taxes have little logical grounding, suffice to protect cartels and politically linked groups by legislation.

Last night I was posting on the piss, so I was'nt so...clear thinking. In the cold light of day, its making more sense.

As for making oblique threats against a judge, I am sure the Malaysian Special Branch are dying to break down the doors to my flat after Ambassador Kelly contacts them. They won't find much.

benway

dermo88 wrote: »

Or Djarkarta 50101 Dial Tommy Suharto. Solves your judicial problems with ease.

That's Tommy Suharto of the Indonesian Suharto clan who sent their country into economic meltdown, owing in no small part to corruption and nepotism, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have to call in the IMF? And didn't the country collapse into complete anarchy as a result of the consequent "structural adjustments?

Nice reference point.

ArmaniJeanss

I'm reading the statement from the family of this lowlife and it's clear they just don't get it. I'm actually angry at the way they try to make it out to be some sort of technicality.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0310/begleyp.html

wrote:

Reading a prepared statement Mr Begley said: "It is important to stress what Paul did is wrong, it was a breach of EU regulations, and he knows that"

No, you shower of fools, Don't try to sugar coat it.
It wasn't just a minor breach of some regulation, it was tax evasion on a fcuking massive scale, and it would still be ongoing if he hadn't been caught in the act 5 years ago.

MOSSAD

benway wrote: »

His brother robbed the car and made the threats, he went along with it. The brother got jailed, he got a suspended sentence, under the supervision of a probation officer.

Why is this being left out? It's almost like there's an agenda to smear the judge here.

Smear the judge? Don't think so-there is NO consistency in sentencing.
This guy loves money, so hit him with fines, and audit him for the next 10 years. Send the lowlife lifetaking drug-addled habitual offenders to prison for long periods-might cut down crime. And while we're at it, when are crooked politicians/bankers and property cowboys going to get their day in court?

dermo88

benway

That's Tommy Suharto of the Indonesian Suharto clan who sent their country into economic meltdown, owing in no small part to corruption and nepotism, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have to call in the IMF? And didn't the country collapse into complete anarchy as a result of the consequent "structural adjustments?

Correct. I know hes scum, but hey.....who would'nt do the same given the chance. I know I would'nt be the virgin mary.

He knew how to deal with Judges that go against him. Mind, corruption is fine once I can benefit. When a country is too honest, its boring and expensive. When a country is too cheap, its too dangerous. I like the happy medium in between. Chaotic enough to keep you thinking on your feet, cheap and friendly enough to be safe and interesting within reason. Ireland became too expensive and honest for ordinary people to survive, but the elite at the top bled the rest of us.

Mr Begley is'nt even in the ha'penny place compared to an anchovie in Fianna Fail.

benway

MOSSAD wrote: »

Smear the judge? Don't think so-there is NO consistency in sentencing.
This guy loves money, so hit him with fines, and audit him for the next 10 years. Send the lowlife lifetaking drug-addled habitual offenders to prison for long periods-might cut down crime. And while we're at it, when are crooked politicians/bankers and property cowboys going to get their day in court?

Think this sentence is pretty consistent with 12 1/2 years for a €250k dole fraud, tbh. Seems entirely appropriate.

The guy has money to pay the fines, which are limited by statute anyway. It won't mean anything if he gets to buy his way out of it.

I would hope that his political, developer and banker equivalents will see their day in court sooner rather than later - from where I see it, if you're excusing this guy, you're excusing the lot of them.

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I'm reading the statement from the family of this lowlife

Wouldn't the family of every convicted criminal like to make a statement like that? Why are RTÉ giving this scumbag a platform?

Wait, don't answer that.