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6 years jail for garlic scam

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    #242
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    benway wrote: »
    You said murder. If you meant murder reduced to manslaughter, you should have said it.

    And what, my heart is supposed to be bleeding for some cnut of a cute hoor gombeen man who fleeced the state out of €1.6m? And all those nasty lower working class scumbags free to go dropping yokes and slurping dutch gold of a Saturday night? Spare me.
    benway wrote: »
    You're having a laugh here. Someone who benefited from a €1.6m fraud over four years, who was a director of Ireland's largest veg supplier doesn't count as the rich now?

    It's been one law for the rich, one law for the poor for too long in this country, that's why I'm hoping that this will signal the beginning of rule of law for everyone. Lest we forget, €250k dole fraud gets you 12 years.

    The supposed fraud existed because the State imposed a ridiculous 232% customs duty on one particular vegetable, and 9% on another. Any economist will tell you that will lead to "fraud". Not that "defrauding" the State from it's theft is really immoral.

    In any case the State was not defrauded by 1.6M because were it impossible to hide from the State's extortionate racketeering these garlic bulbs would not be imported at all, thus the State would have gotten 0%. Meanwhile the rest of the country, bar some garlic producers - who apparently have more clout than electronic or car manufacturers ( but it is the symbol of our nearest corrupt continental neighbour) - are poorer for these laws, because they increase the price of food.

    Far from this judgement being an attack on cronyism, it is a justification of it. The State has no real interest in going after the elites who actually steal money from the taxpayer, in fact the judiciary itself earns far too much itself.

    However when the State arbitrarily applies ludicrous custom controls on certain goods, controls which increase the cost of food for most of us, to the benefit of some random politically connected group; and somebody with less clout than this group has the decency to ignore the State's extortion, then the State will - as a protection racket - make sure the non-politically connected entrepreneur goes to jail for longer than rapists, or man-slaughterers. The deep pockets of garlic producers ( who knew?) influenced the custom's duties, the corruption is crony mercantilism not ignoring the extortion.


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    #243
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Duggys Housemate

    However when the State arbitrarily applies ludicrous custom controls on certain goods, controls which increase the cost of food for most of us, to the benefit of some random politically connected group; and somebody with less clout than this group has the decency to ignore the State's extortion, then the State will - as a protection racket - make sure the non-politically connected entrepreneur goes to jail for longer than rapists, or man-slaughterers. The deep pockets of garlic producers ( who knew?) influenced the custom's duties, the corruption is crony mercantilism not ignoring the extortion.

    Thank you for so eloquently stating a view I strongly agree with without resorting to emotive language.

    Its a reason why I have a grave distrust of governments, and a tendency to bend rules to an extent.


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    #244
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,326 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    The supposed fraud existed because the State imposed a ridiculous 232% customs duty on one particular vegetable, and 9% on another.
    Which 'supposed' fraud is this, do you mean the actual fraud Begley was convicted of?
    And no, it didn't happen because the state imposed 232% duty on a product.
    It happened because this tax evading criminal decided in a pre-meditated way that taxes didn't apply to him or his company, that he had a nice little wheeze to get around it.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Any economist will tell you that will lead to "fraud". Not that "defrauding" the State from it's theft is really immoral.

    Defrauding the state isn't immoral? Interesting.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    In any case the State was not defrauded by 1.6M....
    It fcuking was you know.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    because were it impossible to hide from the State's extortionate racketeering these garlic bulbs would not be imported at all, thus the State would have gotten 0%.
    So its Irelands fault that this lowlife was forced into tax evasion?
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Meanwhile the rest of the country, bar some garlic producers
    tax compliant garlic producers
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    - who apparently have more clout than electronic or car manufacturers ( but it is the symbol of our nearest corrupt continental neighbour) - are poorer for these laws, because they increase the price of food.
    The fairness or otherwise of the tariffs arent the issue here, I suspect Mr Begley isn't a Robin Hood figure providing cheap food for the masses.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Far from this judgement being an attack on cronyism, it is a justification of it. The State has no real interest in going after the elites who actually steal money from the taxpayer, in fact the judiciary itself earns far too much itself.
    Going after elite multi-millionaire tax evading importers sounds like a good attack on croneyism. Would generally agree with your attack on the judiciary however, could probably do with a pay decrease.

    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    However when the State arbitrarily applies ludicrous custom controls on certain goods, controls which increase the cost of food for most of us, to the benefit of some random politically connected group; and somebody with less clout than this group has the decency to ignore the State's extortion, then the State will - as a protection racket - make sure the non-politically connected entrepreneur goes to jail for longer than rapists, or man-slaughterers. The deep pockets of garlic producers ( who knew?) influenced the custom's duties, the corruption is crony mercantilism not ignoring the extortion.

    So we are back to Mr Begley as some sort of Robin Hood figure providing cheap food for the masses.
    With respect, GTFO.


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    #245
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    ArmaniJeanss

    Ok. Agree to disagree.

    Realistic taxes mean honest taxpayers. What part of that do you consistently fail to understand?

    Is it high grade columbian cocaine?
    Is it Afghan Heroin?
    Tobacco? Alcohol?

    No

    Its effing bloody garlic, hardly a controlled substance in any way shape or form.

    Yet the smuggling of it has INCREASED into the European Union in order to protect European growers.

    What does economics tell us. There comes a point in time when its uneconomic to produce product A. Thats discontinued, and a country with better economies of scale produces product A, and the wealthier nation switches over to producing product B, and uses its terms of trade.

    But this is a debate about the law, versus a debate about trade.

    If a line was drawn under the Irish First Republic, and a second one declared where it was made abudantly clear that the lacsaidasical attitude towards the system would not be tolerated again, then fair enough. But that has not happened, and the system in Ireland is clearly flawed. Mr Begley, as the Judge said was a 'decent man', and he cooperated. Why therefore is he being sent down for 6 years, 6 long years.

    I'd accept 3 years, at the very most, with fines, but thats it.

    "Jesus your honour, or should I say, you horror......6 years, what effing side of the bed did you pop out of?"

    I should hope for consistency that the sentence is reduced on appeal. There is a gathering public outcry regarding the severity of the sentence. By basis of comparison, with the oft cliched and quoted "thieving ex Bankers" being held up, in a reasoned and balanced conversation with an Icelandic couple on holidays, we considered the nature of the crime, the ages of the people involved and concluded that 8 years sentence was adequate, dropping to four on good behaviour. We also concluded that an open prison environment such as Shelton Abbey was far more conducive and civilised compared to the likes of Mountjoy. Justice does need to be tempered at times with compassion, especially as this crime was not violent in nature.


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    #246
    Joe10000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Joe10000


    Front page of tomorrows Irish Times ?


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    #247
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    For information, the EU sets customs duty rates, as they are common across the union.

    We collect them and pass them to the EU.

    We set our own excise duties.


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    #248
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Which 'supposed' fraud is this, do you mean the actual fraud Begley was convicted of?
    And no, it didn't happen because the state imposed 232% duty on a product.
    It happened because this tax evading criminal decided in a pre-meditated way that taxes didn't apply to him or his company, that he had a nice little wheeze to get around it.



    Defrauding the state isn't immoral? Interesting.


    It fcuking was you know.


    So its Irelands fault that this lowlife was forced into tax evasion?


    tax complaint garlic producers


    The fairness or otherwise of the tariffs arent the issue here, I suspect Mr Begley isn't a Robin Hood figure providing cheap food for the masses.


    Going after elite multi-millionaire tax evading importers sounds like a good attack on croneyism. Would generally agree with your attack on the judiciary however, could probably do with a pay decrease.




    So we are back to Mr Begley as some sort of Robin Hood figure providing cheap food for the masses.
    With respect, GTFO.

    Eloquently put :rolleyes:

    €1.6m less in the pockets of French and/or German bondholders. The guy should be given a medal, not a jail sentence.


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    #249
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »

    €1.6m less in the pockets of French and/or German bondholders. The guy should be given a medal, not a jail sentence.
    I'm dying to hear how this ties in with bond holders?:eek:


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    #250
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm dying to hear how this ties in with bond holders?:eek:

    Workers and business people pay taxes -> money floods out of the country to the tune of billions and billions of Euro.


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    #251
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Workers and business people pay taxes -> money floods out of the country to the tune of billions and billions of Euro.
    ... and the French/German bondholders are loseing 1.6m how exactly?


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    #252
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    dvpower wrote: »
    ... and the French/German bondholders are loseing 1.6m how exactly?

    Fair point. Come hell or high water, they'll get their money. You can be sure of that. Carry on.


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    #253
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Eloquently put :rolleyes:

    €1.6m less in the pockets of French and/or German bondholders. The guy should be given a medal, not a jail sentence.
    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Workers and business people pay taxes -> money floods out of the country to the tune of billions and billions of Euro.

    The logical conclusion to this argument is that none of us should pay any taxes.


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    #254
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The logical conclusion to this argument is that none of us should pay any taxes.

    The logical conclusion is that taxes should be fair and sensible I'd say. Although that would make too much sense.


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    #255
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Fair point. Come hell or high water, they'll get their money. You can be sure of that. Carry on.
    So, just to be clear - this has nothing to do with French and German bondholders, right?


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    #256
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    dermo88 wrote: »
    Is it high grade columbian cocaine?
    Is it Afghan Heroin?
    Tobacco? Alcohol?

    No

    Its effing bloody garlic, hardly a controlled substance in any way shape or form.

    No, it's another member of the business classes thinking that the rules don't apply to him.
    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    The logical conclusion is that taxes should be fair and sensible I'd say. Although that would make too much sense.

    Oh right, actively circumventing laws one thinks are unfair or irrational is excusable now? Tell that to the addicts getting put away for possession, every day of the week.
    dermo88 wrote:
    Justice does need to be tempered at times with compassion, especially as this crime was not violent in nature.

    That's nice, can I use it the next time some junkie "scumbag" petty thief has the book thrown at him? Say the very people who are nodding along here would be frothing at the mouth if I did....


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    #257
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    benway wrote: »
    Oh right, actively circumventing laws one thinks are unfair or irrational is excusable now?

    I'm not the law so it doesn't make a difference but I have absolutely no problem excusing people, personally, of breaking laws that I feel are unjust.


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    #258
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    dvpower wrote: »
    So, just to be clear - this has nothing to do with French and German bondholders, right?

    Both have absolutely everything with the government's appropriation of my money, your money and the money of every taxpayer in the country. So they're inextricably linked.


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    #259
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    benway wrote: »
    the business classes

    'De biznez classes'? WTF are you talking about? 'De bizniz classes', by which I assume you mean people running businesses, are the ones who take excessive risks to generate employment and allow us to have anything resembling an economy. But you enjoy your civil servant job, sitting around and scratching your hole while on the internet giving out about 'de biznez classes'. :rolleyes:


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    #260
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Both have absolutely everything with the government's appropriation of my money, your money and the money of every taxpayer in the country. So they're inextricably linked.
    So, can you explain exactly how French or German bondholders are missing out on 1.6m because of this tax evasion?
    A few posts ago you wanted to give him a medal for this, but you haven't made any attempt to join the dots for us.


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    #261
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    dvpower wrote: »
    So, can you explain exactly how French or German bondholders are missing out on 1.6m because of this tax evasion?
    A few posts ago you wanted to give him a medal for this, but you haven't made any attempt to join the dots for us.

    No you're absolutely right in fairness. The tax 'lost' by the government in this case won't make a damn bit of difference to our country being swindled.

    Having said that, I have no problem with what this man did. The country is utterly corrupt. If you can't beat 'em and joining 'em means you get completely f**ked, then every man for himself I say. A very anarchic viewpoint but hey, system ain't working. Enjoy paying your taxes. :)


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    #262
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    If you can't beat 'em and joining 'em means you get completely f**ked, then every man for himself I say. A very anarchic viewpoint but hey, system ain't working. Enjoy paying your taxes. :)
    That's one of the best arguements I've heard so far for a very punitive jail sentence for tax evasion.


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    #263
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    The logical conclusion is that taxes should be fair and sensible I'd say. Although that would make too much sense.

    Judge Nolan said the import tax “may or may not” be excessive, but stressed it was for the Oireachtas to decide, and not individuals.

    In other words, if you don't like the tax, the right course is to vote for a government that will change it, not to unilaterally decide you're going to exempt yourself from it.
    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    I'm not the law so it doesn't make a difference but I have absolutely no problem excusing people, personally, of breaking laws that I feel are unjust.

    Fair enough - just remember what Mr Begley appears to have forgotten: "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time".


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    #264
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Judge Nolan said the import tax “may or may not” be excessive, but stressed it was for the Oireachtas to decide, and not individuals.

    It's decided by vested interests. Like many other things in this country - corruption basically.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    In other words, if you don't like the tax, the right course is to vote for a government that will change it, not to unilaterally decide you're going to exempt yourself from it.

    Any time I vote for a political party, they seem to have great difficulty keeping their pre-election promises. I'm surprised there isn't more of this type of crime in Ireland seeing as our government seem to be leading by example.


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    #265
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    'De biznez classes'? WTF are you talking about? 'De bizniz classes', by which I assume you mean people running businesses, are the ones who take excessive risks to generate employment and allow us to have anything resembling an economy. But you enjoy your civil servant job, sitting around and scratching your hole while on the internet giving out about 'de biznez classes'. :rolleyes:

    The business classes, the corporate elite of cute hoors and gombeen men who have brought this country to its knees.

    Oh sorry, I suppose I should think of these cnuts as heroic ooootraprenooors, whose hard work and slog should be an example to us all, who made themselves great ... even if inheriting a family company did help them along the way.

    Nice smear there as well, in no way a cheap shot. I'm in the private sector anyhow, but I don't let that, or ideology, blind me to the damage wrought by private sector corruption. Private sector goooooood, public sector baaaaaaad, amirite?

    If we can't reel in a medium-sized fish like this guy, then what hope do we have of catching the big ones?


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    #266
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    It's decided by vested interests. Like many other things in this country - corruption basically.
    Of course its decided by vested interests - like the interests of European farmers over the intersts of Chinese farmers.

    But, afaik, its not decided in this country at all. Its decided by the EU, in negotiation with the WTO. I don't think Irish corruption has anything to do with it.


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    #267
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    benway wrote: »
    The business classes, the corporate elite of cute hoors and gombeen men who have brought this country to its knees.

    You mean banking elite and the government?
    benway wrote: »
    Nice smear there as well, in no way a cheap shot. I'm in the private sector anyhow

    Enjoy the job and livelihood provided to you by those you profess to hate.


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    #268
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Enjoy the job and livelihood provided to you by those you profess to hate.

    I provide my own livelihood, thanks.

    The banking elite, the government and the business elite are all closely connected - different manifestations of the same problem.

    I don't profess to hate anyone, I just think that one of the key lessons from the past five years, for those of us who have been paying attention, that the tolerance extended in the past to private sector corruption, nod-and-a wink cute hoorism, is one of the key factors in hobbling this country, and that steps must be taken to eradicate it.


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    #269
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    benway wrote: »
    I provide my own livelihood, thanks.

    If you're employed by someone, they provide your livelihood.
    benway wrote: »
    The banking elite, the government and the business elite are all closely connected - different manifestations of the same problem.

    Bankers, the government and property developers brought the country to its knees. Not the vast majority of businesspeople.
    benway wrote: »
    I don't profess to hate anyone, I just think that one of the key lessons from the past five years, for those of us who have been paying attention, that the tolerance extended in the past to private sector corruption, nod-and-a wink cute hoorism, is one of the key factors in hobbling this country, and that steps must be taken to eradicate it.

    I appreciate your idealism. Sadly it won't happen. The people who brought this country to its knees will still be driving around in Ferraris and living in mansions and scapegoats like this fellow have the book thrown at him to try to prove to the unwashed masses that something positive is being done.


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    #270
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    If you're employed by someone, they provide your livelihood.

    My education, skills and intelligence provide my livelihood. If I don't turn up to work tomorrow morning, my employer sure as hell isn't going to be able to do my job. And he'll have a tough time finding someone else who can do it as well as I do - he'll certainly have to open his wallet and provide the appropriate remuneration.

    Nice line in forelock tugging to the corporate elite you've got there. We should be grateful to them for all they've done for us? :rolleyes:
    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    I appreciate your idealism. Sadly it won't happen. The people who brought this country to its knees will still be driving around in Ferraris and living in mansions and scapegoats like this fellow have the book thrown at him to try to prove to the unwashed masses that something positive is being done.

    This guy is as bad as any of them. Most honest, decent, hard-working people don't see €1.6m in a lifetime, never mind scamming it in four years. If we can't bring someone like him to book, what chance action will be taken against the really big fish?


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    #271
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    benway wrote: »
    My education, skills and intelligence provide my livelihood. If I don't turn up to work tomorrow morning, my employer sure as hell isn't going to be able to do my job. And he'll have a tough time finding someone else who can do it as well as I do - he'll certainly have to open his wallet and provide the appropriate remuneration.

    Now now. Don't be so modest. I'm quite sure there are plenty of people out there who can do a better job than you.
    benway wrote: »
    Nice line in forelock tugging to the corporate elite you've got there. We should be grateful to them for all they've done for us? :rolleyes:

    So let me get this - employers bad, employees good. Gotcha. You're a real credit to your country and you're doing so much for the nation. What with all the employment you provide and such. Good man yourself.


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