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ULSU UGM 2012 (rescheduled for Tuesday, Week 10 at 7pm, location TBC)
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wnolan1992 wrote: »- Motion to Recognise Irish as the Official Language of the Union
See below:deise go deo wrote: »The motion submitted was to make Irish an official language, not the official language of the Union. I will talk to Kelly tomorrow to correct this.
It is part of a wider campaign over the next few weeks being brought forward by An Cumann Gaelach to sort out the status of the Irish Language in the Union while it is being restructured.
For those not in agreement, in 2007, Irish became recognised as an official EU language: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-becomes-the-23rd-official-language-of-eu-430615.html
No-one is saying that Irish will overcome English as the dominant ULSU language...rather people are asking that Irish become recognised, and that all documents be translated into Irish, and rightly so imho!
Take our own constitution for example [The Irish Constitution, not that of the ULSU]:Candidates must be Irish citizens and over 35 years old. However, there is a discrepancy between the English- and Irish-language texts of Article 12.4.1°. According to the English text, an eligible candidate "has reached his thirty-fifth year of age", whereas the Irish text has this as "ag a bhfuil cúig bliana tríochad slán" ("has completed his thirty-five years"). Because a person's thirty-fifth year of life begins on his or her thirty-fourth birthday, this means there is a one year's difference between the minimum ages as stated in the two texts.
Guess What folks, we are Irish, and imo, Irish has historic sentiment, and should take precident for articles and readings and whatever else [including ULSU documents] it takes in order to keep what has officially been regarded as an EU language.
If you dont agree, I wont argue with you, as someone that loves my heritage, and spent 6 years in UL, I'd hate to see Irish decline without a fight!0 -
This is not high priority. It's wasting time and resources (of which there are not many) to appease a niche audience.0
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This is not high priority. It's wasting time and resources (of which there are not many) to appease a niche audience.
If you read my post, you will see that we do not expect the SU to commit resourses to this while it is in financial dificulty, as for its priority, I think the voters will decide that at UGM.0 -
Regardless, I see it being a huge headache on the admin side, translating masses of documents into Irish (some of which are several hundred pages). I don't understand what's so wrong with reading such documents in English?0
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Regardless, I see it being a huge headache on the admin side, translating masses of documents into Irish (some of which are several hundred pages). I don't understand what's so wrong with reading such documents in English?
The Irish Officer would be responsible for providing services in Irish for those that want them, as we see it, the Irish Officer would call a meeting of all those students who choose Irish, at which the students would be asked what they want made available in Irish, from which an Irish Language Plan would be worked out by the Irish officer for the year.
The role of the SU would not be to do the work for the Irish officer, or under the current financial circumstances, pick up any related costs, but just to facilitate the Irish officer in carrying out their role.
No headache for the SU
No Waste of time
No waste of resourses.
I don't why should people who want to use Irish be forced to use English.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »I don't why should people who want to use Irish be forced to use English.
Then you shouldn't have come to an english speaking college.Guess What folks, we are Irish, and imo, Irish has historic sentiment, and should take precident for articles and readings and whatever else [including ULSU documents] it takes in order to keep what has officially been regarded as an EU language.
Not everyone in the college is Irish, however everyone in the college can speak english which takes precident for articles, readings and whatever else.
Spanish is an EU language, going by your logic, spanish should be an official language too?
I'm against this motion 100%. We are a students' union representing students, what's next? add french, spanish and german to the mix? then japanese for those few japanese students?
The Students' Union is meant to be free from bias, by adding Irish to its official language range you are excluding foreign students (or you go down the crazy route of making everything available in every language).
Tbh, it sounds like you guys in An Cumann Gaelach really don't know what's going on currently in the union. Either that or you guys are promoting irish completely the wrong way.0 -
Then you shouldn't have come to an english speaking college.
Not everyone in the college is Irish, however everyone in the college can speak english which takes precident for articles, readings and whatever else.
Spanish is an EU language, going by your logic, spanish should be an official language too?
Eh, no. Irish is the official language of this country. The motion is not to make it THE official language of the union, but AN official language. Everything this entails will apparently fall under the remit of the Irish officer. No one will be forced to deal with the Union as Gaeilge. I'm 100% pro this motion and I am not affiliated with CnaG here. I'm just surprised this hasn't happened sooner.
Also in regards to this being an English speaking college, I speak Irish daily and there are many of us who do. There are Irish language only accommodation and a Seomra Gaeilge in the languages building.0 -
Eh, no. Irish is the official language of this country. The motion is not to make it THE official language of the union, but AN official language. Everything this entails will apparently fall under the remit of the Irish officer. No one will be forced to deal with the Union as Gaeilge. I'm 100% pro this motion and I am not affiliated with CnaG here. I'm just surprised this hasn't happened sooner.
The motion says THE and a change to AN would be a significiant change which an amendment would not allow.
Irish should not be an official language of the SU, but rather the SU should support the Irish officer. The irish officer (presumably paid by the college) would translate documents on request. By making it an official language, you will make sabbats and staff (who aren't required to know irish) have to have a translator for people who wish to speak to them in irish (which they must faciliate as Irish would become on par with english). So people will be forced to deal with people in Irish.
This really is on par with the hats motion imho, not needed, not urgent and clearly not a care about the severity of the state of the Union. I honestly feel like whoever submitted wanted to troll people... I also think that the motion will add another 30 minute long discussion when other motions require more attention.0 -
I think if you read back, the motion was submitted to say An Official language rather than The official language. Should be clarified later on this evening I'm sure.
Either way, it remains our official language and until such a time as that changes, I will advocate for it to be seen as one of our universities official languages.
Also, I'm not sure but it may be clarified later, as far as I know the Irish Officer is elected by the Class Reps Council? It is an unpaid position and the person generally studies the language. In my experience, the Irish language lecturers and tutors would be more than happy to encourage students who wish to translate documents. There would be no real cost to the union. The documents don't necessarily have to be printed either. An electronic copy would suffice if it came to it, I'm sure.0 -
The motion says THE and a change to AN would be a significiant change which an amendment would not allow.
Irish should not be an official language of the SU, but rather the SU should support the Irish officer. The irish officer (presumably paid by the college) would translate documents on request. By making it an official language, you will make sabbats and staff (who aren't required to know irish) have to have a translator for people who wish to speak to them in irish (which they must faciliate as Irish would become on par with english). So people will be forced to deal with people in Irish.
This really is on par with the hats motion imho, not needed, not urgent and clearly not a care about the severity of the state of the Union. I honestly feel like whoever submitted wanted to troll people... I also think that the motion will add another 30 minute long discussion when other motions require more attention.
I wrote the motion and can gaurentee that the motion submitted said 'An official language'
The advertised motion was a typo, as confirmed by the SU to me today, the motion that will come up at the UGM will be to make Irish 'an official language'
The Irish officer is not a paid position.
There would be no obligation to have translators for SU staff as you suggest. That is utter fantasy land stuff.
No one will be forced to use Irish, to suggest otherwise is to willfully spread misinformation.0 -
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There would be no obligation to have translators for SU staff as you suggest. That is utter fantasy land stuff.
No one will be forced to use Irish, to suggest otherwise is to willfully spread misinformation.
I think you misunderstand the implication of what an official language is. It means that all business conducted by the Union may be conducted in Irish at the choice of either party and that choice may not be over-ruled. For example, I could choose to raise a point to a UGM completely in Irish and expect to conduct the subsequent discussion in that language and no-one could over-rule my choice to do so.
I think the intent of what you are doing would be better served by a motion along the lines of "the Union should work to promote the use of the Irish language where practicable".0 -
I think you misunderstand the implication of what an official language is. It means that all business conducted by the Union may be conducted in Irish at the choice of either party and that choice may not be over-ruled. For example, I could choose to raise a point to a UGM completely in Irish and expect to conduct the subsequent discussion in that language and no-one could over-rule my choice to do so.
I think the intent of what you are doing would be better served by a motion along the lines of "the Union should work to promote the use of the Irish language where practicable".
I do not agree with your interpritation of official language status.
Yes, any student could go into the SU and demand to speak Irish, just as they could today if they wanted to.
That does not mean that those in the union will be obliged to be able to speak Irish, that is what the Irish officer is for, should someone wish to use Irish, they would have to go through the Irish Officer.
The provision of services in Irish would be the responsibility of the Irish officer, that is entirely in keeping with national and international norms when it comes to service provision in official languages where not everyone speaks every official language.I could choose to raise a point to a UGM completely in Irish
Yep just like anyone could have at any point up to now.and expect to conduct the subsequent discussion in that language and no-one could over-rule my choice to do so.
No, You could continue speaking in Irish if you wish, just like you could anyway, but you could not expect anyone else to as they would have the equal right to use English.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »I wrote the motion and can gaurentee that the motion submitted said 'An official language'
The advertised motion was a typo, as confirmed by the SU to me today, the motion that will come up at the UGM will be to make Irish 'an official language'
The Irish officer is not a paid position.
There would be no obligation to have translators for SU staff as you suggest. That is utter fantasy land stuff.
No one will be forced to use Irish, to suggest otherwise is to willfully spread misinformation.
That needs to be clarified ASAP to ALL STUDENTS VIA EMAIL. If it isn't done, it does raise questions about what motion stands come the UGM.
No one is currently forced to use Irish, that motion FORCES anyone and everyone, at the request of one individual, to have the AGM/EGM/UGM, hustings for candidates along with anfocal being in both Irish and English. This requires an irish language translator to be present at all union meetings, hustings, class rep councils and etc.deise go deo wrote: »I do not agree with your interpritation of official language status.
This motions doesn't agree with your interpretation.deise go deo wrote: »Yes, any student could go into the SU and demand to speak Irish, just as they could today if they wanted to.
That does not mean that those in the union will be obliged to be able to speak Irish, that is what the Irish officer is for, should someone wish to use Irish, they would have to go through the Irish Officer.
Sounds like an irish translater there!deise go deo wrote: »The provision of services in Irish would be the responsibility of the Irish officer, that is entirely in keeping with national and international norms when it comes to service provision in official languages where not everyone speaks every official language..
The EU offer on the spot translations of dialogue between countries, why? EACH LANGUAGE IS AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE AND MUST BE TREATED EQUALLY. So every and all documents have to be released in every official language, same with meetings. If someone requests the meeting in Irish, an Irish translator is required.
Clearly official isn't even the word you want to use, secondary is probably more appropriate.I think the intent of what you are doing would be better served by a motion along the lines of "the Union should work to promote the use of the Irish language where practicable".
What the motion should be! I think that's already in the constitution (though I haven't checked it specifically for that).0 -
Surly there is a cost in the Irish motion0
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That is the interpretation used everywhere else that I've ever seen e.g. government, EU, etc. Indeed, it was the motivation for Ireland to seek official language status for Irish within the EU. I don't see any justification for a different interpretation of the term in relation to a legal entity such as ULSU.
Interestingly, the ULSU constitution as it stands does not have any direction on what langauge the union officially uses, unless I missed it. If the backers of this motion have found one, it'd be useful to see the reference.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Yep just like anyone could have at any point up to now.
No, You could continue speaking in Irish if you wish, just like you could anyway, but you could not expect anyone else to as they would have the equal right to use English.
Currently you could ask a question in Irish, but the chair can disregard that question as they are under no obligation to translate the question to english.
The proposed motion FORCES an Irish translater to be present at the meeting to translate any and all questions from English to Irish, along with the answers, at the request of one individual.
If this motion passes, I will be requesting every single document from the SU, every article in anfocal and every question and answer in the AGM/EGM/UGM and referendums to be in Irish and to be translated on the spot at each event. This means the Irish officer will have no time to promote irish on campus. This motion serves to hurt irish on campus.0 -
That needs to be clarified ASAP to ALL STUDENTS VIA EMAIL. If it isn't done, it does raise questions about what motion stands come the UGM.
I have requested a clarification from Rosin Monaghan, the SU democracy development officer.No one is currently forced to use Irish, that motion FORCES anyone and everyone, at the request of one individual, to have the AGM/EGM/UGM, hustings for candidates along with anfocal being in both Irish and English. This requires an irish language translator to be present at all union meetings, hustings, class rep councils and etc.
That is not the case.This motions doesn't agree with your interpretation.
You are wrong there.Sounds like an irish translater there!
Irish officer, the position already exists, if you want to see it as a translator then fine, though that would not be their job description.The EU offer on the spot translations of dialogue between countries, why? EACH LANGUAGE IS AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE AND MUST BE TREATED EQUALLY. So every and all documents have to be released in every official language, same with meetings. If someone requests the meeting in Irish, an Irish translator is required.
Are you seriously trying to compare the Students Union to the EU? lol0 -
Ok now I think you are just trolling!deise go deo wrote: »That is not the case.
You are wrong there.
Convincing arguement. Start with that at the UGM, it will be sure to pass.deise go deo wrote: »Are you seriously trying to compare the Students Union to the EU? lol
Someone else brought up the EU.Guess What folks, we are Irish, and imo, Irish has historic sentiment, and should take precident for articles and readings and whatever else [including ULSU documents] it takes in order to keep what has officially been regarded as an EU language.
If you dont agree, I wont argue with you, as someone that loves my heritage, and spent 6 years in UL, I'd hate to see Irish decline without a fight!0 -
Are you seriously trying to compare the Students Union to the EU? lol
The SU is established by statute as a legal body to represent students. IMO this makes demands of language used in its governance similar to the demands of language used in the governance of any other legally established representative body e.g. the EU.
Bottom line is that the only use I'm aware of for the term "Official Langauge" is in the context that I and others have presented.
So far you have yet to present any evidence to contradict this view. Saying "You are wrong" does not constitute evidence in any sense of the word.0 -
"An" not "the" makes a huge difference to the annoyance I displayed last night.
I do apologise for that, I was quite stressed and tired at the time. The wording of "the" to "an" is a big difference from a personal views perspective.
Re:the implications of "Official Language"
Could the motion be reworded?Motion to have (all) future ULSU documentation translated to Irish0 -
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That is the interpretation used everywhere else that I've ever seen e.g. government, EU, etc. Indeed, it was the motivation for Ireland to seek official language status for Irish within the EU. I don't see any justification for a different interpretation of the term in relation to a legal entity such as ULSU.
Interestingly, the ULSU constitution as it stands does not have any direction on what langauge the union officially uses, unless I missed it. If the backers of this motion have found one, it'd be useful to see the reference.
Let me explain it fully then.
Making Irish an official language of the Union does not determin how that official status is implemented, it does not by default mean that everything must be provided in Irish at all times.
For example, Irish is Ireland's first official Language, but the implementation of that Official status is determined by the Official Languages Act 2003, which sets out what services are to be provided in Irish, and which need not be, along whith a whole set of other detail.
In the SU, the document that determins how service provision in Irish is implemented is the SU Bilingual Policy. Making Irish an official language in the Union does not change that.
The SU as an entity would be obliged to provide services in Irish for students. This is the effect that Irish being an offical language would have.
How that obligation is implemented however is a seprate issue, and is at the discretion of the SU Exec, our plan would see the provision of services in Irish being the responcibility of the Irish officer (as is the case now under the bilingual policy) the Bilingual Policy under our campaign would become the Irish Language Plan which the Irish officer would review each year under the mandate of the Irish speaking community which elected them, and that is what would determin what services would have to be provided by the union (through the Irish officer).
Essentially the Irish Language Plan would be a case of a meeting at the start of the year where the Irish officer would meet with the students who pick Irish as their Language of choice, they would then discuss what people want provided in Irish, see what they are actually able to do, and work out a plan based on that.
The SU Exec could reject our proposal on this and do something else if they wanted, making Irish an official language does not make any difference to that.
Regardless, individuals within the SU would never be obliged to speak Irish, and the SU would not be obliged to provide every service through Irish by default.0 -
Zeouterlimits wrote: »"An" not "the" makes a huge difference to the annoyance I displayed last night.
I do apologise for that, I was quite stressed and tired at the time. The wording of "the" to "an" is a big difference from a personal views perspective.
Re:the implications of "Official Language"
Could the motion be reworded?
No Problem, I am quite annoyed myself about the typo, I want to give Irish speakers a choice, not force the language on everyone.
Translating SU Documents is not what this is about, building an Irish speaking comunity and providing services and representation for Irish speakers is what we are aiming for.0 -
Let me explain it fully then.
Making Irish an official language of the Union does not determin how that official status is implemented, it does not by default mean that everything must be provided in Irish at all times.
For example, Irish is Ireland's first official Language, but the implementation of that Official status is determined by the Official Languages Act 2003, which sets out what services are to be provided in Irish, and which need not be, along whith a whole set of other detail.
In the SU, the document that determins how service provision in Irish is implemented is the SU Bilingual Policy. Making Irish an official language in the Union does not change that.
The SU as an entity would be obliged to provide services in Irish for students. This is the effect that Irish being an offical language would have.
How that obligation is implemented however is a seprate issue, and is at the descression of the SU Exec, our plan would see the provision of services in Irish being the responcibility of the Irish officer (as is the case now under the bilingual policy) the Bilingual Policy under our campaign would become the Irish Language Plan which the Irish officer would review each year under the mandate of the Irish speaking community which elected them, and that is what would determin what services would have to be provided by the union (through the Irish officer).
Regardless, Individules within the SU would never be obliged to speak Irish, and the SU would not be obliged to provide every service through Irish by default.
You would have saved everyone a lot of time and effort if you'd posted that at the start of the discussion!
I'm presuming "Polasaí an Datheangachais" is the bilingual policy which you refer to. Currently the link to it on the SU website gives a file not found error. One would presume also from the title that it is written in Irish only, though without a copy to refer to it's impossible to be certain.0 -
If Irish is an offical language and I can't get things in Irish then why have this motion0
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You would have saved everyone a lot of time and effort if you'd posted that at the start of the discussion!
I'm presuming "Polasaí an Datheangachais" is the bilingual policy which you refer to. Currently the link to it on the SU website gives a file not found error. One would presume also from the title that it is written in Irish only, though without a copy to refer to it's impossible to be certain.
The main problem was the typo, proposing that Irish be THE official language of the union would be an extreme position and I am not surprised that it drew such heavy critism, however I did try to set the record straight in my first post.
In fairness, when people(not you btw) start shouting at you and accuse you of trolling on the basis of something that is just untrue, it is understandable if you don't feel like trying to explain your position to them as they are not likely to be interested in the facts anyway.
Thats the one, actually up until January it was available in English only, It was only translated after I requested an Irish version of it before Christmas.0 -
If Irish is an offical language and I can't get things in Irish then why have this motion
It gives Irish an actual status in the SU Constitution, meaning that the SU can't just up and descide to abandon Irish compelatly(Which it has come very close to doing at this point), and it provides the framework for a wider campaign to change the structure of the provision of Irish language services in the SU as mentioned above.0 -
Yes but it would have a cost on the SU that the Irish soc can dodeise go deo wrote: »If Irish is an offical language and I can't get things in Irish then why have this motion
It gives Irish an actual status in the SU Constitution, meaning that the SU can't just up and descide to abandon Irish compelatly(Which it has come very close to doing at this point), and it provides the framework for a wider campaign to change the structure of the provision of Irish language services in the SU as mentioned above.0 -
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If the motion re Irish won't have any costs associated, then fine. If however, it's going to end up costing the SU ANY money at all in the short term, then no. I love the language as much as anyone, but the fact is this isn't a priority for the majority of the members of the SU. It is not a priority for all the International students, who could just as easily put forward a motion to have Chinese recognised. The SU is not a government institution. It represents the UL Student body. Whether or not the official language of this country is Irish or not bears no weight in this argument.
As others have pointed out, making it an official language will inevitably cause problems. Unless the sabbats and Council are all fluent in Irish then there'll have to be a translator provided at every meeting for those that wish to speak in Irish.0 -
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wnolan1992 wrote: »If the motion re Irish won't have any costs associated, then fine. If however, it's going to end up costing the SU ANY money at all in the short term, then no. I love the language as much as anyone, but the fact is this isn't a priority for the majority of the members of the SU. It is not a priority for all the International students, who could just as easily put forward a motion to have Chinese recognised. The SU is not a government institution. It represents the UL Student body. Whether or not the official language of this country is Irish or not bears no weight in this argument.
It wont have any cost over the next three years while the SU corrects it's finances, we will not be requesting a budget for the Irish Officer, we will ask instead for agreement in principle that when SU finances are sorted out that the Irish officer will recieve a budget to carry out their role which will be proportional to the number of students who want to avail of services in Irish.
We have never suggested that Irish being an official language nationally has any bearing on this motion, this is about the SU.As others have pointed out, making it an official language will inevitably cause problems. Unless the sabbats and Council are all fluent in Irish then there'll have to be a translator provided at every meeting for those that wish to speak in Irish.
There will be no requirement for Sabats or members of council to be fluent in Irish, neither will there need to be a translater present at every meeting.
Official status for Irish, as explained at lenght above does not mean that everything will have to be available in Irish all the time by default.0
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