ULSU UGM 2012 (rescheduled for Tuesday, Week 10 at 7pm, location TBC)

wnolan1992

deise go deo wrote: »

It wont have any cost over the next three years while the SU corrects it's finances, we will not be requesting a budget for the Irish Officer, we will ask instead for agreement in principle that when SU finances are sorted out that the Irish officer will recieve a budget to carry out their role which will be proportional to the number of students who want to avail of services in Irish.

This is positive, and a very good idea.

We have never suggested that Irish being an official language nationally has any bearing on this motion, this is about the SU.

I'm too lazy to go back through the thread to quote the posts that have used the example of irish being the official language of Ireland, the fact the Irish was officially recognised by the EU, or those that said it's only right and proper given that "We're Irish" which not all of us (the student body) are.

There will be no requirement for Sabats or members of council to be fluent in Irish, neither will there need to be a translater present at every meeting.

Official status for Irish, as explained at lenght above does not mean that everything will have to be available in Irish all the time by default.

I'm all for giving it status. But explain how this situation would play out.

SU UGM 2013, a heated debate on the SU finances is in progress. I stand up, and ask a question in Irish. The Chair doesn't speak Irish. None of the sabbats speak Irish to a high enough level to understand me. Will my question be ignored? Will I be told I have to give up my right under the SU Constitution to speak Irish and have to translate it myself?

These may be nit-picky points, but you know full well that people will do it for the laugh. Look at the motion for silly hats for Christ sake.

freyners

the more i think about it the more im sickened to miss the meeting, would love to see how the silly hats motion goes down

Tighearnan

It won't cost much to put information in irish, it is our language why are people so against it being used.

Jester252

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should the Irish Soc have to provide services for students? Thats the union's job, we just wan't to access those servics in our language.

We are fully aware that the SU is broke, and do not expect the Union to pay for translations or any other cost associated with providing services in Irish while it unable to pay its own staff, Untill SU Finances are sorted An Cumann Gaelach will be willing to pick up the tab on whatever costs arise from this

Then why do ye what to foot the bill you did say in that post about the cost and you also said that ye play on using this as a starting off point to push Irish across the campus. You are right about the union should provide services but the services should be able to be used by every student not a group. You said that you can grt documents in Irish on request do why does everything need to be tin Irish in case someone whats it? What is to stop French/Spainish etc students from asking for the same. It is not the union problem to campain for Irish on the campus. That is what the Irish soc/Irish dep is for.

deise go deo

wnolan1992 wrote: »

This is positive, and a very good idea.



I'm too lazy to go back through the thread to quote the posts that have used the example of irish being the official language of Ireland, the fact the Irish was officially recognised by the EU, or those that said it's only right and proper given that "We're Irish" which not all of us (the student body) are.




I'm all for giving it status. But explain how this situation would play out.

SU UGM 2013, a heated debate on the SU finances is in progress. I stand up, and ask a question in Irish. The Chair doesn't speak Irish. None of the sabbats speak Irish to a high enough level to understand me. Will my question be ignored? Will I be told I have to give up my right under the SU Constitution to speak Irish and have to translate it myself?

These may be nit-picky points, but you know full well that people will do it for the laugh. Look at the motion for silly hats for Christ sake.

Irish having official status in the Union, does not equal being able to use Irish at all times, at all meetings etc.

The Idea is that if our plan goes ahead as is, then next year all first years coming in will beable to choose the language they would like to use when dealing withthe union, Irish or English. For those that pick English, nothing changes, for those that pick Irish, they become part of the Irish speaking community on campus. All current students would also have the option of choosing which language they want to use, but for those that don't bother, the default setting would be English.
Any student should also be able to switch languages later on if they want.

The Irish Officer would be elected by the Irish speaking community and their role would be to work on their behalf.
In the first few weeks, the Irish officer would hold a meeting for everyone who chose Irish, at which students who chose Irish would be able to tell the Irish officer what services they want in Irish, and what issues they feel they need representation on, the Irish officer would then look at what the Irish Speaking students want, what they can reasonably be expected to achieve and work out an Irish language plan based on that.

That plan would then be the reference point for what services should be/are available available in Irish for Irish speaking students to use, successive Irish officers should seek to expand the range of services available in Irish.

It would not be workable for everything to be provided in Irish, all the time, from day one. That is not going to be the result of Irish being made an official language of the SU either in principle or in practice.


As for your example, yep you would probably have to back down and speak English unless one of your freinds wanted to translate for you, though I can't really see why someone would stand up and address a meeting in Irish if they know that the people they are talking to don't speak Irish.(other than people doing it for the laugh)

The proposal is not about making every one speak Irish, nor is it about making everything available through Irish, it's just about making it possible for students who want to use Irish, to be able to do so where praticable.

wnolan1992

Tighearnan wrote: »

It won't cost much to put information in irish, it is our language why are people so against it being used.

I'm not against it being used. I'm not against a motion saying the SU will promote the use of the language. What I'm against, is giving Irish the same status as English in the SU. The SU does not represent Irish people. It represents the UL Student body as a whole. You could just as easily argue that Chinese, French, German, Spanish, Japanese, etc should all be given equal status in the Union as well.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for your example, yep you would probably have to back down and speak English unless one of your freinds wanted to translate for you, though I can't really see why someone would stand up and address a meeting in Irish if they know that the people they are talking to don't speak Irish.(other than people doing it for the laugh)

The proposal is not about making every one speak Irish, nor is it about making everything available through Irish, it's just about making it possible for students who want to use Irish, to be able to do so where praticable.

Ever watch Oireachtas Report? Sinn Fein TD's often use Irish in hopes of making those they address seem less intelligent. You say you want to give people the choice of language they want to interact with the Union in, yet you won't accommodate them to do this in meetings? If ye want to write something like this into the constitution then these are the issues ye should have satisfactory answers for.

deise go deo

Jester252 wrote: »

Then why do ye what to foot the bill you did say in that post about the cost and you also said that ye play on using this as a starting off point to push Irish across the campus. You are right about the union should provide services but the services should be able to be used by every student not a group. You said that you can grt documents in Irish on request do why does everything need to be tin Irish in case someone whats it? What is to stop French/Spainish etc students from asking for the same. It is not the union problem to campain for Irish on the campus. That is what the Irish soc/Irish dep is for.

We are willing to foot the bill because the SU wont be able to and we think its worth while, I should explain that the Cumann footing the bill will be on a case by case basis. An Cumann Gaelach's aim is to promote the language on campus, we prefer to do that by hosting events and the like, but we can see the value in having an active Irish Officer with a recognised Irish speaking community behind them.

The Union's job is to provide services to students, we just want to use those services through our language, I don't really see what the problem with that is. One thing that won't be happening is that everything will be provided just in case somone wants it, we don't have the resourses to do that, we will be focusing on areas where there is demand for stuff being available in Irish.

As for whats to stop the same happening for French/Spanish/German etc nothing if there is the demand for it.
One of the things I particularly like about this campaighn is that it has the scope to go beyond just Irish, The SU Website for example, the hard part is making a website able to handle two languages, but after that the same software can be used to add in any number of other languages, it would only be a matter of typing in the text, if people want it and are willing to do the translation themselves, why not provide it, that is what the SU should be doing.

Jester252

If a student can pick the language then everything will have to be done in Irish as well to support this.

Jester252

deise go deo wrote: »

We are willing to foot the bill because te SU wont be able to and we think its worth while, I should explain that the Cumann footing the bill will be on a case by case basis. An Cumann Gaelach's aim is to promote the language on campus, we prefer to do that by hosting events and the like, but we can see the value in having an active Irish Officer with a recognised Irish speaking community behind them.

The Union's job is to provide services to students, we just want to use those services through our language, I don't really see what the problem with that is. One thing that won't be happening is that everything will be provided just in case somone wants it, we don't have the resourses to do that, we will be focusing on areas where there is demand for stuff being available in Irish.

As for whats to stop the same happening for French/Spanish/German etc nothing if there is the demand for it.
One of the things I particularly like about this campaighn is that it has the scope to go beyond just Irish, The SU Website for example, the hard part is making a website able to handle two languages, but after that the same software can be used to add in any number of other languages, it would only be a matter of typing in the text, if people want it and are willing to do the translation themselves, why not provide it, that is what the SU should be doing.

So the money ye get as a soc will be used to pay for services in the union instead of events for your members. You what to use services that union has in Irish. So from that Class reps has to have its minutes in Irish or eveny meeting in Irish at someones request. An focal has to be in Irish even ULFM.

deise go deo

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I'm not against it being used. I'm not against a motion saying the SU will promote the use of the language. What I'm against, is giving Irish the same status as English in the SU. The SU does not represent Irish people. It represents the UL Student body as a whole. You could just as easily argue that Chinese, French, German, Spanish, Japanese, etc should all be given equal status in the Union as well.

This is not really about getting the SU to promote the Irish language, its about getting the SU to give Irish speakers the oppertunity to use it.
Irish speakers are a minority on campus, that does not mean that the SU should ignore us and not provide its services in Irish where there is enough demand for it.
Irish speaking students are members of the Union, we want to interact with our Union through our language where possible.

If French/German/Chinease speaking students want to do the same, more power to them, I don't see why not where it is praticle.

Ever watch Oireachtas Report? Sinn Fein TD's often use Irish in hopes of making those they address seem less intelligent. You say you want to give people the choice of language they want to interact with the Union in, yet you won't accommodate them to do this in meetings? If ye want to write something like this into the constitution then these are the issues ye should have satisfactory answers for.

The issue as I see it is that there is a lack of services being provided by the SU in Irish, this proposal is part of a plan to change that, will it mean that everything will be available in Irish overnight? No, but it will start to redress the balance, that is a realistic approch and it is the one we have chosen to adopt.

If students who choose Irish want to use Irish in meetings, and find a way of doing it that is workable, then great, we would be perfectally happy to work twords implementing it, if it turns out not to be praticle, then we will move on and work on providing somthing else in Irish.

It's seems you want me to say that we want Irish everywhere at all times at any cost, but that is simply not realistic.

deise go deo

Jester252 wrote: »

If a student can pick the language then everything will have to be done in Irish as well to support this.

That is just not the reality of what we are proposing, I have explained it in detail several times.

Let me spell it out, the student will be able to pick which language they would like to use with the SU, if that language is available for a given service they will be able to use it, if it is not available, they wont. Its as simple as that.

What get's provided in Irish and what does not is decided between the students who choose Irish and the Irish officer on the basis of what they want, and what can be actually achieved.

You might not want to believe that this is what is being proposed for some reason, but it is. Deal with it.

So the money ye get as a soc will be used to pay for services in the union instead of events for your members.

Our budget will be used to further the aims of the Cumann, If our members have a problem with how the committee is going about running the Cumann they have every right to raise it at our AGM, or call an EGM if they feel the need.

Chimaera

Let me spell it out, the student will be able to pick which language they would like to use with the SU, if that language is available for a given service they will be able to use it, if it is not available, they wont. Its as simple as that.

What get's provided in Irish and what does not is decided between the students who choose Irish and the Irish officer on the basis of what they want, and what can be actually achieved.

You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you're saying they'll take what they're given in Irish, yet on the other you'll provide whatever people ask for. Which is it?

And unless you specifically rule out the posibility of using Irish in a meeting, you can be damn sure someone will, either out of a genuine desire to use the language, or just to mess things up. A mechanism will have to be put in place to deal with that outcome.

And you might think it's great to bring in other languages, I reckon it'd be opening the floodgates. Would the International Soc have to pick up the tab on those other languages in the same way as An Cumman Gaelach? And do you really think the union will revert to picking up the tab on these services down the line?

I'll remind you that unless passed by referendum, union policies have a lifespan of three years after which they go back in the pot for discussion. What I'd see happening here is the union say, fine lads you can have the Irish thing and pay for it and we'll review it in three years time. The union are not likely to enter an agreement which commits them to an additional spend in years to come given the current financial situation. They'll kick it to touch for the three years while you pay for it and do the same again.

Jester252

deise go deo wrote: »

That is just not the reality of what we are proposing, I have explained it in detail several times.

Let me spell it out, the student will be able to pick which language they would like to use with the SU, if that language is available for a given service they will be able to use it, if it is not available, they wont. Its as simple as that.

What get's provided in Irish and what does not is decided between the students who choose Irish and the Irish officer on the basis of what they want, and what can be actually achieved.

You might not want to believe that this is what is being proposed for some reason, but it is. Deal with it.

My problem is that you what to introduce a cost to the SU to provided a services that a small group of people may or may not use.
If I wanted emails fron the SU in Irish does it happen or does the little club have to vote. (Another problem is a little group have say on what to cost the Union)
SU services should be open to all.This will not be as students that have little or no Irish wont be able to use the services.

Stryderman

Tighearnan Noonan for President. He is the only man for the job

Trader1991

Stryderman wrote: »

Tighearnan Noonan for President. He is the only man for the job

Ya hit the nail on the head there. I cant think of anyone else more qualified than Tighearnan Noonan!

deise go deo

Chimaera wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you're saying they'll take what they're given in Irish, yet on the other you'll provide whatever people ask for. Which is it?

It is as described earlier, The implementation of Irish as an official language would be governed by the Irish Language Plan, That document would set out what is available in Irish, what the Irish officer would work to make available in Irish and what is not available in Irish at present. That document would be drawn up between the Irish officer and the students who want services in Irish, the Irish officer would ask the students what services they want to be available in Irish, and will work to prvide those services most in demand, the Irish officer will have limited resourses so this there so that they can get the best bang for their buck.

^^I am not gong to explain this again^^

And unless you specifically rule out the posibility of using Irish in a meeting, you can be damn sure someone will, either out of a genuine desire to use the language, or just to mess things up. A mechanism will have to be put in place to deal with that outcome.

The point is that it is not ruled out now, anyone could demand to speak Irish in a meeting either out of a genuine desire to use the language, or just to mess things up.
If there was no way of facilitating that happening in place, then the same thing would happen then as now, blank stares and the someone having to speak English, its not perfect but its better overall than the current situation as far as service provision in Irish goes.

Again, just because Irish is an Official languager in the Union does not mean any student will have the right to demand to use Irish at any time and expect to be able to.

And you might think it's great to bring in other languages, I reckon it'd be opening the floodgates. Would the International Soc have to pick up the tab on those other languages in the same way as An Cumman Gaelach? And do you really think the union will revert to picking up the tab on these services down the line?

Let them open, language diversity is a good thing. No one will be forced to use any language they don't want to, If there are students looking to use a language with the SU, why not let them where praticle?
If the International soc felt that picking up the tab on providing some SU services in Languages other than English and Irish was worthwhile, they could, but they would not have to, just like An Cumann Gaelach does not have to foot the bill for Irish, its something that we are willing to do as we feel that doing so has value to our Society.

I'll remind you that unless passed by referendum, union policies have a lifespan of three years after which they go back in the pot for discussion. What I'd see happening here is the union say, fine lads you can have the Irish thing and pay for it and we'll review it in three years time. The union are not likely to enter an agreement which commits them to an additional spend in years to come given the current financial situation. They'll kick it to touch for the three years while you pay for it and do the same again.

We feel that the development of an effective Irish Officer in the SU is worthwhile for the furtherance of our societies aims, any money we spend on it will be at our own discression.

As for what will happen in three years time, That will be for the Irish Officer/Cumann Gaelach of the day to worry about, I am just trying to set up the conditions to develop an effective Irish officer now and just maybe put them in a stronger position to argue their case in three years time.

deise go deo

Jester252 wrote: »

My problem is that you what to introduce a cost to the SU to provided a services that a small group of people may or may not use.
If I wanted emails fron the SU in Irish does it happen or does the little club have to vote. (Another problem is a little group have say on what to cost the Union)
SU services should be open to all.This will not be as students that have little or no Irish wont be able to use the services.

Look, If you don't like it, vote against it, I have explained it enough by now I think.

Stryderman

Tá aithne agam ar Tighearnan Noonan agus tá a fhios agam go bhfuil gaeilge den scóth aige. Dá mbeadhfá ina uachtarán bheadh UL áit níos fearr do gaelgóirí

Jester252

Has anyone heard anything about the comm officer motion

reunion

deise go deo wrote: »

Look, If you don't like it, vote against it, I have explained it enough by now I think.

as you submitted the motion, can you give us the full text of the motion?

The current motion I see has taken 2-3 pages to explain your point but the motion does NOT reflect the motion intended. The motion proposed (as stated in the agenda) has a severe implication for the entire SU. The full text of the motion may be exactly what you are trying to articulate

Jester252 wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything about the comm officer motion

Nope, I really hope it's not to reinstate the communications officer. I hope its a proposed structure to replace the communications officer (as requested at the EGM).

Stryderman wrote: »

Tá aithne agam ar Tighearnan Noonan agus tá a fhios agam go bhfuil gaeilge den scóth aige. Dá mbeadhfá ina uachtarán bheadh UL áit níos fearr do gaelgóirí

Aon focal, da focal, two focal eile,
And I not knowing no focal at all

deise go deo

reunion wrote: »

as you submitted the motion, can you give us the full text of the motion?

The current motion I see has taken 2-3 pages to explain your point but the motion does NOT reflect the motion intended. The motion proposed (as stated in the agenda) has a severe implication for the entire SU. The full text of the motion may be exactly what you are trying to articulate

Motion's Aim:

Members resolve at UGM to recognise Irish as an Official Language of the Union.

Motion

We propose that the General Meeting of ULSU recognise Irish as an Official Language of the Union under Article 2, and as such the union will commit to working with the Irish Officer to provide services through Irish where practcial, to students who choose to carry out their business with the Union through Irish.

Chimaera

Given that Article 2.8 already strives to implement a bilingual policy, I don't see what this motion adds tbh. Your time and energy might be better spent working on the bilingual policy itself.

deise go deo

Chimaera wrote: »

Given that Article 2.8 already strives to implement a bilingual policy, I don't see what this motion adds tbh. Your time and energy might be better spent working on the bilingual policy itself.

The draft constitution that is being brought forward does not contain that point.

highlydebased

reunion wrote: »

Nope, I really hope it's not to reinstate the communications officer. I hope its a proposed structure to replace the communications officer (as requested at the EGM).

It is indeed a new structure.

wnolan1992

So were the full wordings of the motions on those leaflets I heard they were handing out today? Didn't get a chance to grab one.

leaoj

don't worry lads not a hope of it making quorum so don't stress yourselves about it

Bored Accountant

leaoj wrote: »

don't worry lads not a hope of it making quorum so don't stress yourselves about it

Is it possibly because sabbatts wages are up for discussion that they don't want to make quorum? so hold it on a monday afternoon when it doesn't suit very many people and in the stables courtyard where it will be impossible to stop people wandering in and out? And also because theres other motions that they don't want to see going through such as silly hats and possible reintroduction of the comms position!!

Looking at an Focal that came out this week, the UGM wasn't mentioned once in it. U'd think they'd have written something about it even if they didn't have details of motions submitted at the time of going to printing?

johnryano

Bored Accountant wrote: »

Is it possibly because sabbatts wages are up for discussion that they don't want to make quorum? so hold it on a monday afternoon when it doesn't suit very many people and in the stables courtyard where it will be impossible to stop people wandering in and out? And also because theres other motions that they don't want to see going through such as silly hats and possible reintroduction of the comms position!!

Looking at an Focal that came out this week, the UGM wasn't mentioned once in it. U'd think they'd have written something about it even if they didn't have details of motions submitted at the time of going to printing?

great point actually. obviously the first egm was in the interests of KOB so she plastered it all over the student rag but this one isn't so she's trying to cover it up.

wnolan1992

Bored Accountant wrote: »

Is it possibly because sabbatts wages are up for discussion that they don't want to make quorum? so hold it on a monday afternoon when it doesn't suit very many people and in the stables courtyard where it will be impossible to stop people wandering in and out? And also because theres other motions that they don't want to see going through such as silly hats and possible reintroduction of the comms position!!

Looking at an Focal that came out this week, the UGM wasn't mentioned once in it. U'd think they'd have written something about it even if they didn't have details of motions submitted at the time of going to printing?

According to the SU when I asked on Facebook why it was on a Monday:

Wednesday hasn't achieved a quorum in a number of years. Last semester's AGM on a Monday was the first to comfortably exceed quorum in a number of years.
The Stables is the venue as there are no other venues officially available that have a capacity in excess of 200.

Kind of ignores the fact the EGM made quorum on a Wednesday. Although I guess the reason that made quorum was because a lot of people just wanted to see Paddy Rockett and Kelly O'Brien have an argument.

Speaking of quorum, what do people think of this idea to reduce quorum to 100? Seems like a bit of a drastic move to me. Surely it would be more in their line to try and increase people's interest rather than making people think that they'll just change the rules to suit themselves? (I'm not sure who submitted the motion btw, might have nothing to do with the sabbat team). And if any decrease was deemed necessary, wouldn't it make more sense to reduce it to 175, maybe 150 rather than straight out halving it.

Jester252

I agree 50% is a huge cut but it seems to be that around 200 students are intrested in the SU and they can't be there all at the same time. Its sad TBH but that the way most of the students are. They what to use the SU but are not willing to help out kinda like most other structures. If they had a motion to remove charity week people will show