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Sea Shepherd
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Interesting point here about why Japan can't be seen to back down.
The Lowy InstituteRear Admiral (ret'd) James Goldrick AO, CSC
What Sea Shepherd is doing may well contribute to the emotional entrenchment of this outlook as Japan comes to see itself as embattled and alone in the maritime domain. If Japan is seen as being weak with Sea Shepherd, the argument will run, how will China interpret this but as a signal to continue its own hard line approach? The Japanese Prime Minister's personal electoral base is in the same region as the whaling industry and this can only increase the pressure.
Further Reading: http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2013/02/28/Japanese-whaling-Sea-Shepherd-doesnt-help.aspx0 -
Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »Interesting point here about why Japan can't be seen to back down.
The Lowy Institute
Whether or not the Sea Shepherds entrench the Japanese they do prevent Whales from being killed.0 -
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long range shooter wrote: »
And those whales are killed legally,so why are thy there?
Because the organisation that made the supposed law is corrupt & millions of people find the inhumane killing of Whales to be utterly abhorrent.
The Sea Shepherds are there & they will remain because people support them.
World history is full of people who had to challenge immoral law.0 -
Because the organisation that made the supposed law is corrupt & millions of people find the inhumane killing of Whales to be utterly abhorrent.
The Sea Shepherds are there & they will remain because people support them.
World history is full of people who had to challenge immoral law.
You will find corruption and bribery in any organisation today,so that's nothing new really.
No matter whether you think all whales (or cows, sheep, goats and rabbits) have the right to live without the threat of being eaten or otherwise treated as a resource by humans, the Sea Shepherd group encourages illegal and potentially lethal activity.
Over centuries, seafaring nations have worked cooperatively to establish protocols governing the safe navigation of their vessels on the waters of the world.
The laws are designed to protect humans at sea.
Sea Shepherd breaches these laws. It flouts them arrogantly and its supporters claim immunity because of their higher moral cause – saving whales.
In a 2002 testimony to the US Congress, an FBI official mentioned the actions of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society in the context of eco-terrorism.The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society intervenes against whaling, seal hunting, and fishing operations with direct action tactics. In 1986, the group caused nearly 1.8 million dollars worth of damage to equipment used by whalers in Iceland. In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.
And I don't think all bribery allegations put out goes in Sea shepards favour.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-201203060 -
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long range shooter wrote: »In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-20120306
Ah Drift netting not only does it kill but it kills indiscrmenently, it takes anything and everything that you can use and not use plus when they cut the nets they were not marked according to the protocols for marking drift nets. just like long lines.
Also since your linking Maltese news im gunna jump in on it as i have contacts out in malta and im heavily involved in SSCS setting up the new chapter there.
Under Maltese law everything caught must go to the fish market in Valletta, another organisation im involved with in Malta are at the market every morning looking for ilegally landed sharks and looking for shark egg cases.
From making many trips to the market over the last three years i have never seen tuna landed there but yet you seeing it being transfered within Maltese water's to two japanese vessels registered in Panama, The Tuna Lady and Tuna Queen both operating illegally in the water's around Malta.
So is the Blue fin tuna bribery happening down there? Most likely why you ask?
As all the tuna is not being landed in malta like it should be under their laws.
Just like long lining down there the lines are not marked correctly and yet they allow illegal long lining in their waters.0 -
Ah Drift netting not only does it kill but it kills indiscrmenently, it takes anything and everything that you can use and not use plus when they cut the nets they were not marked according to the protocols for marking drift nets. just like long lines.
Also since your linking Maltese news im gunna jump in on it as i have contacts out in malta and im heavily involved in SSCS setting up the new chapter there.
Under Maltese law everything caught must go to the fish market in Valletta, another organisation im involved with in Malta are at the market every morning looking for ilegally landed sharks and looking for shark egg cases.
From making many trips to the market over the last three years i have never seen tuna landed there but yet you seeing it being transfered within Maltese water's to two japanese vessels registered in Panama, The Tuna Lady and Tuna Queen both operating illegally in the water's around Malta.
So is the Blue fin tuna bribery happening down there? Most likely why you ask?
As all the tuna is not being landed in malta like it should be under their laws.
Just like long lining down there the lines are not marked correctly and yet they allow illegal long lining in their waters.
But leaving a diver inside the pen seriously injured in the process,that's not so important,obviously.:rolleyes:
The sea Shepard can not police the oceans and make their own laws,that's my point.
It's just a matter of time before someone gets killed.
The rest is politics,leave that to the governments and Eu to sort that out.
Nothing to do with Sea Shepard.0 -
long range shooter wrote: »But leaving a diver inside the pen seriously injured in the process,that's not so important,obviously.:rolleyes:
The sea Shepard can not police the oceans and make their own laws,that's my point.
It's just a matter of time before someone gets killed.
The rest is politics,leave that to the governments and Eu to sort that out.
Nothing to do with Sea Shepard.
Oh yeah the EU and government that are getting money in their pockets from brown envelope sources good call.
Plus in malta they allow people to snorkel and dive in these pens for 50euro go figure?0 -
Oh yeah the EU and government that are getting money in their pockets from brown envelope sources good call.
Plus in malta they allow people to snorkel and dive in these pens for 50euro go figure?
That's probably why the Steve Irwine is registered as a motor yacht,go figure:rolleyes:
And off course that allows the sea Shepard do ram them any way they please.,go figure.
And i don't think you have to travel to far to find brown envelopes in this country either.0 -
long range shooter wrote: »
You will find corruption and bribery in any organisation today,so that's nothing new really.
No matter whether you think all whales (or cows, sheep, goats and rabbits) have the right to live without the threat of being eaten or otherwise treated as a resource by humans, the Sea Shepherd group encourages illegal and potentially lethal activity.
Over centuries, seafaring nations have worked cooperatively to establish protocols governing the safe navigation of their vessels on the waters of the world.
The laws are designed to protect humans at sea.
Sea Shepherd breaches these laws. It flouts them arrogantly and its supporters claim immunity because of their higher moral cause – saving whales.
In a 2002 testimony to the US Congress, an FBI official mentioned the actions of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society in the context of eco-terrorism.The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society intervenes against whaling, seal hunting, and fishing operations with direct action tactics. In 1986, the group caused nearly 1.8 million dollars worth of damage to equipment used by whalers in Iceland. In 1992, they sabotaged two Japanese ships that were drift-net fishing for squid by cutting their nets and throwing stink bombs on board the boats.
And I don't think all bribery allegations put out goes in Sea shepards favour.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/en/newsdetails/news/national/Government-initiates-libel-proceedings-against-Sea-Shepherd-founder-20120306
So you think that bribery & corruption are acceptable because it happens everywhere.
You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.
The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.
By the way bribery/corruption are totally different to libel.0 -
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So you think that bribery & corruption are acceptable because it happens everywhere.
You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.
The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.
By the way bribery/corruption are totally different to libel.
Is it,please show me some evidence that whales can't be killed humanely,does the penthrite harpoon ring a bell?
They don't hide like fugitives?why is Paul Watson on Interpols wanted list?
And australia supports them?
On January 5 the Steve Irwin arrived in Fremantle Harbour escorting the severely damaged Brigitte Bardot from the Southern Ocean, monitored by the Japanese whaling ship MV Shōnan Maru 2.While in port, the Steve Irwin defied an order by the Fremantle harbourmaster to lower her Jolly Roger-styled flag after docking in Fremantle.After departing the port, a team from environmentalist group "Forest Rescue Australia" approached and illegally
boarded the security ship Shōnan Maru 2, climbing over spikes and razor wire in international waters off the coast of Bunbury, Western Australia with the assistance of small boat crews from the Steve Irwin.While Japan agreed to release the activists, the Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard slammed the action as "unacceptable" and warned that others who carry out similar protests would be "charged and convicted".
Yep,they love them in Australia0 -
The way we mass produce food from animals is hardly humane: debeaking of chickens, breeding cows to the point where their legs are overstrained, removing calves' natural food so we can get dairy, confining sows as they suckle, etc. The list goes on and on.You cannot see the difference between a domestical animal that is humanely killed & a wild animal that's chased to the point of exhaustion. It is impossible to kill a Whale humanely.
Paul Watson has two red notices against him and has jumped bail, yet recently rejoined the Steve Irwin. A fugitive in hiding is an apt description.The strange thing is that the Sea Shepherds are constantly accussed of breaking the law but they still operate. They don't hide like fugitives & some countries like Australia support them.0 -
The way we mass produce food from animals is hardly humane: debeaking of chickens, breeding cows to the point where their legs are overstrained, removing calves' natural food so we can get dairy, confining sows as they suckle, etc. The list goes on and on.
Paul Watson has two red notices against him and has jumped bail, yet recently rejoined the Steve Irwin. A fugitive in hiding is an apt description.
If we chased Cows, some with calves, across fields until they collapsed with exhaustion there would be outrage. Of course food production could be more humane but Japan & Norway aren't short of alternatives to Whale meat. Japan has an unwanted warehouse full of it.
In hiding aboard one of the most well known vessels in the world, who's location is known & is on tv.0 -
If we chased Cows, some with calves, across fields until they collapsed with exhaustion there would be outrage. Of course food production could be more humane but Japan & Norway aren't short of alternatives to Whale meat. Japan has an unwanted warehouse full of it.
In hiding aboard one of the most well known vessels in the world, who's location is known & is on tv.
Who's chasing anyone,do you know anything about whaling?
This has been mentioned in previous post If you bother looking.
The same goes with humane killing.
Hiding on board yes,but how often are they in port??
And alternatives aren't the issue as long as its sustainable.the same goes with any other animal on this planet.0 -
long range shooter wrote: »
Is it,please show me some evidence that whales can't be killed humanely,does the penthrite harpoon ring a bell?
They don't hide like fugitives?why is Paul Watson on Interpols wanted list?
And australia supports them?
On January 5 the Steve Irwin arrived in Fremantle Harbour escorting the severely damaged Brigitte Bardot from the Southern Ocean, monitored by the Japanese whaling ship MV Shōnan Maru 2.While in port, the Steve Irwin defied an order by the Fremantle harbourmaster to lower her Jolly Roger-styled flag after docking in Fremantle.After departing the port, a team from environmentalist group "Forest Rescue Australia" approached and illegally
boarded the security ship Shōnan Maru 2, climbing over spikes and razor wire in international waters off the coast of Bunbury, Western Australia with the assistance of small boat crews from the Steve Irwin.While Japan agreed to release the activists, the Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard slammed the action as "unacceptable" and warned that others who carry out similar protests would be "charged and convicted".
Yep,they love them in Australia
A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.
We don't need Whale meat. Japan & Norway speak of culture & tradition. It used to be part of our tradition to have children working in factories or to bait bears with dogs. Over time we developed a moral conscience & abolished such traditions.
In Japan & Norway it's illegal to terrorise a dog but it's fine to do the same to a Whale.
Why don't the Australians arrest the Sea Shepherds when they are in port?0 -
long range shooter wrote: »That's probably why the Steve Irwine is registered as a motor yacht,go figure:rolleyes:
And off course that allows the sea Shepard do ram them any way they please.,go figure.
And i don't think you have to travel to far to find brown envelopes in this country either.
At the time that the nets were rammed they were actually adrift and hazzard to navigation i remember that well.
Also closer to home we know it happens.0 -
A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.
We don't need Whale meat. Japan & Norway speak of culture & tradition. It used to be part of our tradition to have children working in factories or to bait bears with dogs. Over time we developed a moral conscience & abolished such traditions.
In Japan & Norway it's illegal to terrorise a dog but it's fine to do the same to a Whale.
Why don't the Australians arrest the Sea Shepherds when they are in port?
Are you saying that's its inhumane to kill a whale when it dies instantly when hit by a penthrite harpoon?
The results from 2000-2002 with the new penthrite grenade showed that at least 80% of the whales were rendered unconscious or dead instantly. The average TTD was about 2 minutes using the criteria adopted by the IWC (IWC/33/15), which may include periods when animals have been unconscious or already dead (IWC/47/18, IWC/51/12, IWC/58/WKM&AWI 21). Very few animals (< 0.5%) needed a second harpoon shot.
We don't need whale meat,do we need chicken,beef or pork?have you ever tried it?
In up to four communities in Japan and about six in Northern Norway whaling is the economic mainstay. It is a decisive factor in keeping people from migrating to the big cities as well as a safeguard against the build-up of ecologically harmful industries in remote settlements.
No whale stock is any longer under hunting pressure from competing whaling efforts. Therefore whalers now have a vested interest in keeping stocks at a sustainable level. In the years of competitive whaling - which lasted for almost five centuries - this was different, because a whaler who spared a whale "for tomorrow" only worked into the pockets of rival whalers.
When was the last time they protested in Australia?0 -
That's romantic and selective anthropomorphising. We treat other animals much worse by breeding them into unnatural, grotesque, often diseased, meat factories on legs - for all of their confined lives and all on an industrial scale, which makes the very limited whaling look like a drop in the ocean (pun not intended) of our cruelty.A typical Whale chase can last for over an hour with females being separated from their calves. In the past people didn't care. Now thanks to technology we can all appreciate that the Whale feels fear & distress.0 -
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long range shooter wrote: »Are you saying that's its inhumane to kill a whale when it dies instantly when hit by a penthrite harpoon?
The results from 2000-2002 with the new penthrite grenade showed that at least 80% of the whales were rendered unconscious or dead instantly. The average TTD was about 2 minutes using the criteria adopted by the IWC (IWC/33/15), which may include periods when animals have been unconscious or already dead (IWC/47/18, IWC/51/12, IWC/58/WKM&AWI 21). Very few animals (< 0.5%) needed a second harpoon shot.
We don't need whale meat,do we need chicken,beef or pork?have you ever tried it?
In up to four communities in Japan and about six in Northern Norway whaling is the economic mainstay. It is a decisive factor in keeping people from migrating to the big cities as well as a safeguard against the build-up of ecologically harmful industries in remote settlements.
No whale stock is any longer under hunting pressure from competing whaling efforts. Therefore whalers now have a vested interest in keeping stocks at a sustainable level. In the years of competitive whaling - which lasted for almost five centuries - this was different, because a whaler who spared a whale "for tomorrow" only worked into the pockets of rival whalers.
When was the last time they protested in Australia?
So you keep saying it humane however the other 20% ya have to question.
whale hunting ehem* driving and harpooning not humane.
Thats like saying if i shot someone and i was canaible its for food and i'd get off scot free?0 -
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So you keep saying it humane however the other 20% ya have to question.
whale hunting ehem* driving and harpooning not humane.
Thats like saying if i shot someone and i was canaible its for food and i'd get off scot free?
The modern penthrite grenade explodes with such a vibration force and frequency that unconsciousness - and usually death - result instantaneously. Unacceptably long killing times only occur as an "accident", which can also happen in a state-of-the-art abattoir, where an animal may occasionally bleed to death or be scalded without having been stunned first.
Physical model experiments, as well as simulations of the effects of grenade harpooning on anaesthetized pigs fully immersed in water suggest that the shock effect of the blast from the currently used grenades is relatively minor. Also the animals are not stunned to death, but loose consciousness and subsequently die from hemorrhage. Survival time is therefore very short if the animals are hit in the thorax, and is likely to be further reduced if the charge which is currently used is increased, or, even better, if shrapnel (fragment scattering) grenades are used instead of blast grenades.
http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/11126573/Simulations_of_the_effect_of_currently_used_grenade_harpoons_for_the_killing_of_whales_using_a_pig_model_0 -
yeah on pigs nough said, plus if a whale is under water by a few meters and water being an uncompressable liquid its only going to injure not kill0
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long range shooter wrote: »Why do you think they use pigs for ballistics testing of firearms?
And where is your proof of that?
Incorrect ballistics gel is now used i know as i work around firearms. as with water i scuba dive as a hobby plus its simple physics regarding liquids.0 -
That's romantic and selective anthropomorphising. We treat other animals much worse by breeding them into unnatural, grotesque, often diseased, meat factories on legs - for all of their confined lives and all on an industrial scale, which makes the very limited whaling look like a drop in the ocean (pun not intended) of our cruelty.
Any animal cruelty is wrong. We should all be aiming to reduce suffering. You cannot ignore cruelty on the basis that worse may be happening elsewhere.
The Norwegian government veterinary inspector's report on the 1994 minke whale hunt included that: "One inspector reported that a vessel had chased a whale for at least 6-7 hours" (Anon 1994).0 -
long range shooter wrote: »Why do you think they use pigs for ballistics testing of firearms?
And where is your proof of that?
Pigs are used to simulate battlefield injuries for medical training rather than ballistic testing.0 -
Incorrect ballistics gel is now used i know as i work around firearms. as with water i scuba dive as a hobby plus its simple physics regarding liquids.
Not the hydrostatic shock caused by a exploding harpoon,that's different.
Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.
Frank Chamberlin, a World War II trauma surgeon and ballistics researcher, noted remote pressure wave effects. Col. Chamberlin described what he called “explosive effects” and “hydraulic reaction” of bullets in tissue. ...liquids are put in motion by ‘shock waves’ or hydraulic effects... with liquid filled tissues, the effects and destruction of tissues extend in all directions far beyond the wound axis.He avoided the ambiguous use of the term “shock” because it can refer to either a specific kind of pressure wave associated with explosions and supersonic projectiles or to a medical condition in the body.
Col. Chamberlin recognized that many theories have been advanced in wound ballistics. During World War II he commanded an 8,500-bed hospital center that treated over 67,000 patients during the fourteen months that he operated it. P.O. Ackley estimates that 85% of the patients were suffering from gunshot wounds. Col. Chamberlin spent many hours interviewing patients as to their reactions to bullet wounds. He conducted many live animal experiments after his tour of duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock0 -
Any animal cruelty is wrong. We should all be aiming to reduce suffering. You cannot ignore cruelty on the basis that worse may be happening elsewhere.
The Norwegian government veterinary inspector's report on the 1994 minke whale hunt included that: "One inspector reported that a vessel had chased a whale for at least 6-7 hours" (Anon 1994).
The numbers are from 2000-2002,season,it's gone even better today when compulsory training of the harpoon shooters have come in.Every harpoon shooter have to a shooting test done before they are allowed to hunt whales.
If they don't pass,they are not allowed to hunt!
http://youtu.be/K81fVqDho7Q0 -
long range shooter wrote: »Not the hydrostatic shock caused by a exploding harpoon,that's different.
Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.
Frank Chamberlin, a World War II trauma surgeon and ballistics researcher, noted remote pressure wave effects. Col. Chamberlin described what he called “explosive effects” and “hydraulic reaction” of bullets in tissue. ...liquids are put in motion by ‘shock waves’ or hydraulic effects... with liquid filled tissues, the effects and destruction of tissues extend in all directions far beyond the wound axis.He avoided the ambiguous use of the term “shock” because it can refer to either a specific kind of pressure wave associated with explosions and supersonic projectiles or to a medical condition in the body.
Col. Chamberlin recognized that many theories have been advanced in wound ballistics. During World War II he commanded an 8,500-bed hospital center that treated over 67,000 patients during the fourteen months that he operated it. P.O. Ackley estimates that 85% of the patients were suffering from gunshot wounds. Col. Chamberlin spent many hours interviewing patients as to their reactions to bullet wounds. He conducted many live animal experiments after his tour of duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
Hydrostatic shock with surface water tension doesnt translate below the water line correctly again simple physics. Plus do ya trust all from wiki?0 -
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