France V Ireland – Stade de France, Paris. Sunday 4th March 15:00 RTE2 & BBC2

fitz

emmet02 wrote: »

ed7890 wrote: »

CatFromHue had a good post about EOM 2 pages back I thought. Did you see it, what do you think? The main points was that while EOM was part of the rotation, he was only played really in the easier games.

doesn't get much easier than Clermont away alright

This. And the point about him being poor defensively against Bath is nonsense too, based on one tackle, where he was left on his own last second when Jenno should have been tackling low.

Look, as I keep saying, selection isn't the real problem. It's what the players being selected are being told to do that's the main issue. Gameplan is wrong, selections in key areas are wrong, combine the two and you get the team playing poorly, as it has done for two years.

Anyone who thinks we're going to get anything more than the odd sporadic good performance under DK needs to reevaluate. You'll be less bothered when you realise that you should be setting your expectations based on Kidney, rather than the potential of the hugely talented pool of players he is squandering.

bamboozle

fitz wrote: »

This. And the point about him being poor defensively against Bath is nonsense too, based on one tackle, where he was left on his own last second when Jenno should have been tackling low.

Look, as I keep saying, selection isn't the real problem. It's what the players being selected are being told to do that's the main issue. Gameplan is wrong, selections in key areas are wrong, combine the two and you get the team playing poorly, as it has done for two years.

Anyone who thinks we're going to get anything more than the odd sporadic good performance under DK needs to reevaluate. You'll be less bothered when you realise that you should be setting your expectations based on Kidney, rather than the potential of the hugely talented pool of players he is squandering.

ah now in fairness, DK's tactics worked for Ireland U19's and munster, its not his fault the game of rugby is evolving beyond his limited tactics...

the stats after the welsh match said it all, Wales had 14 lineouts we had 5, starve ireland of a lineout platform and we'll struggle.

jm08

MungBean wrote: »

If Kidney was to start Marshall on Sunday it would be more warranted than his starting of Murray in the world cup. Thats how utterly stupid his selection was.

I dont think my issues with his world cup selection are clouding my judgement at all, its clear and has been since he was originally selected by Kidney that he's not capable of playing to an international level. He will be in future but he's not currently, I'm basing that on his entire international career to date. He has had an opportunity that virtually no other player has ever had. He was taken and started at the world cup on a whim and allowed remain as first choice since despite not stepping up and being out performed by his bench cover both at club level and international level.

Starting doesnt show his ability it only shows his lack of competition. Stringer going to england as a last resort makes that all the more impressive ? Despite him being shown up over there ? If anything it showed how little Murray had to do to get ahead at Munster, Stringer over the hill and TOL making a show of himself. Boss, Reddan and Marshall all have to compete with international standard SH's for position. Murray doesnt, he has had a clear path to the top and nobody within a hundred miles of taking that off him. The fact is he wouldnt be a starting SH for Ulster or Leinster and you know it so his starting at Munster isnt grounds to have him in the Irish squad at all let alone starting.

But uncle Deccie likes him and it seems thats worth more than ability or form.

You seem far more concerned with the process of selection than performance and you seem to find it weird that a coach selects a player he rates .

how do you know he wouldn't be a starting sh for leinster or ulster are you joe schmidt or mclaughlin?

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

POM didn't even have to play in that game to be selected.
So you'll judge Henry's ability on one WH game then?
I'll tell you who has done more and can't get a sniff, Dan Touhy.

I'm not going to bad mouth tuohy or henry in that game. the way I'll put it the only one worth a shout for the first team from it was dave kearney who played in that game.

The wolfhounds lost to the Saxons. Scotland A destroyed them the following week.

I thought Touhy and EOM were decent as well as D Kearney (Rob's brother). However if we were to lose a winger this weekend there'd only be one player brought in and it wouldn't be D Kearney despite his excellent form. It would of course be Zebo.

BoardsMember

fitz wrote: »

Gameplan is wrong, selections in key areas are wrong

I hear a rumour there was one, but there has been no discernible evidence that I have been able to spot anyhow....

Anyone care to enlighten me & fellow boardies on that they believe has been our game plan recently under Kidney? Taking into account his selection policy.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

So neither are Reddan, Healy et al? This has been done to death, but it is rotation by Joe. If EOM isn't first choice, who is?

brian O'driscoll is definate first choice. with brian injured, he should be the starter, not rotating starts with an inside centre.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did you see the Wolfhounds game? Have you seen Henry play H Cup rugby this season?

I have seen Henry play and he has been excellent. and no I didn't see the wolfhounds game, but I read some reports from people who were at the match and everyone of them said that dave Kearney was the only standout player and the rest were just poor.

the fact that the scots beat the saxons out the door the following week says something as well.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

I thought Touhy and EOM were decent as well as D Kearney (Rob's brother). However if we were to lose a winger this weekend there'd only be one player brought in and it wouldn't be D Kearney despite his excellent form. It would of course be Zebo.

it was d kearney on the bench not zebo for the welsh game

Flincher

BoardsMember wrote: »

I'm bemused by posts informing that due to the fact that the France game will be really physical, CM was always going to be selected for it. Newsflash - rugby is a physical game. Show be one international game of rugby that is not physical. Wales have a big srum half, massivee centres & wing, and a very mobile and strong running pack. We put in CM. Where did that get us?

In fairness to Murray, his defence was outstanding in that first half against Wales. Certainly saved us on a couple of occasions.

At that stage, I thought Reddan v Murray was a 50/50 call, and it made sense to go with the guy who could make an impact in defence, given the advantage they had over us in size and power across the backline. I don't think picking Murray to play Wales was a bad decision, and he didn't play as badly then as people have made out.

That said, I'd have picked Reddan for Sunday. Scotland had both Cusiter and Blair at 9, hardly animals in defence, but they helped get at the French with their quick distribution.

marco_polo

JRant wrote: »

I thought Touhy and EOM were decent as well as D Kearney (Rob's brother). However if we were to lose a winger this weekend there'd only be one player brought in and it wouldn't be D Kearney despite his excellent form. It would of course be Zebo.

I think we have enough real complaints to make about team selection without having to resort to imaginary ones, which of the above was on the Bench against Wales in the opening game?

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

MungBean wrote: »

If Kidney was to start Marshall on Sunday it would be more warranted than his starting of Murray in the world cup. Thats how utterly stupid his selection was.

I dont think my issues with his world cup selection are clouding my judgement at all, its clear and has been since he was originally selected by Kidney that he's not capable of playing to an international level. He will be in future but he's not currently, I'm basing that on his entire international career to date. He has had an opportunity that virtually no other player has ever had. He was taken and started at the world cup on a whim and allowed remain as first choice since despite not stepping up and being out performed by his bench cover both at club level and international level.

Starting doesnt show his ability it only shows his lack of competition. Stringer going to england as a last resort makes that all the more impressive ? Despite him being shown up over there ? If anything it showed how little Murray had to do to get ahead at Munster, Stringer over the hill and TOL making a show of himself. Boss, Reddan and Marshall all have to compete with international standard SH's for position. Murray doesnt, he has had a clear path to the top and nobody within a hundred miles of taking that off him. The fact is he wouldnt be a starting SH for Ulster or Leinster and you know it so his starting at Munster isnt grounds to have him in the Irish squad at all let alone starting.

But uncle Deccie likes him and it seems thats worth more than ability or form.

You seem far more concerned with the process of selection than performance and you seem to find it weird that a coach selects a player he rates .

how do you know he wouldn't be a starting sh for leinster or ulster are you joe schmidt or mclaughlin?

There is a big problem with the selection criteria though. Thornley stated that EOM wasn't in the Irish squad because he lacked experience and we all know he's just a conduit for DK at this stage. Yet Murray had/has very little but is starting.

He wouldn't be first choice for either Leinster or Ulster because there are better players available.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

How many Heineken Cup games had Murray played before togging out for Ireland at the WC?

It's such a ridiculously bad metric to base player choice on, and one that people like to use when suggesting X over Y but pretend/forget/don't know that there's players who have had no exposure before selection.

the world cup is over. we're now at the 6ns, you need to move on. murray has 6 starts (and 6 wins) in the heineken cup this season. even got one man of the match performance (against the scarlets).

jm08

JRant wrote: »

There is a big problem with the selection criteria though. Thornley stated that EOM wasn't in the Irish squad because he lacked experience and we all know he's just a conduit for DK at this stage. Yet Murray had/has very little but is starting.

He wouldn't be first choice for either Leinster or Ulster because there are better players available.

with 6 starts in the heineken cup (and 6 wins) he has more starts in the heineken cup this season than paul marshall has in his entire career.

Joe schmidt gives everyone a go . if murray was at ulster, he'd be starting and pienaar would be outhalf (mainly down to humphreys being so flaky). and for the record, pienaar has said he doesn't mind if he plays 9 or 10, he just does not want to play 15.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Lets call a spade a spade here. There is a clear jealousy/bitterness here because the youngsters from Ulster/Connacht/Leinster are unable to climb the ranks as quickly as the Munster lads.

For the province with the most derided youth/academy setup, its quite impressive that Munster lads are able to make the step up so effortlessly.

JRant

marco_polo wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I thought Touhy and EOM were decent as well as D Kearney (Rob's brother). However if we were to lose a winger this weekend there'd only be one player brought in and it wouldn't be D Kearney despite his excellent form. It would of course be Zebo.

I think we have enough real complaints to make about team selection without having to resort to imaginary ones, which of the above was on the Bench against Wales in the opening game?

Fair enough so

fitz

jm08 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

How many Heineken Cup games had Murray played before togging out for Ireland at the WC?

It's such a ridiculously bad metric to base player choice on, and one that people like to use when suggesting X over Y but pretend/forget/don't know that there's players who have had no exposure before selection.

the world cup is over. we're now at the 6ns, you need to move on. murray has 6 starts (and 6 wins) in the heineken cup this season. even got one man of the match performance (against the scarlets).

Doesn't change the fact that Kidney applies experience criteria for selection for one player and not another. He's completely inconsistent in his selection standards, which must have an effect on the squad.

leftleg

Kidneys team selection is not going down well in Germany

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

the world cup is over. we're now at the 6ns, you need to move on. murray has 6 starts (and 6 wins) in the heineken cup this season. even got one man of the match performance (against the scarlets).

cool beans.

Another poster without an ounce of logic for the list.

Otacon

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade here. There is a clear jealousy/bitterness here because the youngsters from Ulster/Connacht/Leinster are unable to climb the ranks as quickly as the Munster lads.

For the province with the most derided youth/academy setup, its quite impressive that Munster lads are able to make the step up so effortlessly.

fitz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade here. There is a clear jealousy/bitterness here because the youngsters from Ulster/Connacht/Leinster are unable to climb the ranks as quickly as the Munster lads.

For the province with the most derided youth/academy setup, its quite impressive that Munster lads are able to make the step up so effortlessly.

The real question is why are they progressing quicker? It doesn't seem to be based on form/experience or any of the other criteria players from other provinces are measured against. I'm not being bitter, I just don't get it. POM ahead of Henry is the best example. It's ridiculous.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Leamy benched ahead of SOB for the last set of AI’s despite SOB being in far better form.

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Foxtrol wrote: »

Leamy benched ahead of SOB for the last set of AI’s despite SOB being in far better form.

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

O'Brien was able to cover 8. It was just a typically munstercentric selection that like many of the others was eventually proven to be the wrong choice.

Hayes over Ross and TOL over Reddan as well. Jokeshop selections.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

yes just a few weeks later he picked up MOM against Italy at 8; of course he wasnt up to it.

Cpt_Blackbeard

fitz wrote: »

The real question is why are they progressing quicker? It doesn't seem to be based on form/experience or any of the other criteria players from other provinces are measured against. I'm not being bitter, I just don't get it. POM ahead of Henry is the best example. It's ridiculous.

If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say its all down to superior genetics and the grace of god.

POM is a similar case to Murray. Standout performances for their province gets them selected in the squad. Application and performance in training is probably what allowed them to progress to the front of the queue.

WeleaseWoderick

jm08 wrote: »

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

Amazing logic there. So what if Wallace was injured?

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say its all down to superior genetics and the grace of god.

POM is a similar case to Murray. Standout performances for their province gets them selected in the squad. Application and performance in training is probably what allowed them to progress to the front of the queue.

And an injury to Niall Ronan plus disintegration of form of TOL

irishbucsfan

leftleg wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

yes just a few weeks later he picked up MOM against Italy at 8; of course he wasnt up to it.

He had been MOTM there for Leinster as well against Ulster but where he had plenty if "ability" he was very lacking in "beingfromthesouthofirelandicity.". Impossible to pick a guy like that.

Of course, similarly, its O'Mahoneys wealth of experience that has him in the same spot now.

jm08

fitz wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that Kidney applies experience criteria for selection for one player and not another. He's completely inconsistent in his selection standards, which must have an effect on the squad.

where does it say that he must have a rigid plan on how players are selected. cian healy didn't have much experience when he got selected first of all but he was given the chance and even though it wasn't pretty at times, kidney stuck with him and healy is now turning into one of the best loose heads around even though he is very young to be playing in that position internationally (kidney could have used court)

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

where does it say that he must have a rigid plan on how players are selected. cian healy didn't have much experience when he got selected first of all but he was given the chance and even though it wasn't pretty at times, kidney stuck with him and healy is now turning into one of the best loose heads around even though he is very young to be playing in that position internationally (kidney could have used court)

Horan is ancient ; thats why

Cpt_Blackbeard

leftleg wrote: »

Horan is ancient ; thats why

That doesn't explain why Healy was selected ahead of Court though.

Despite the popular opinion, Court is a pretty good LH and was definitely a better scrummager than Healy when Healy first came on the scene.