France V Ireland – Stade de France, Paris. Sunday 4th March 15:00 RTE2 & BBC2

irishbucsfan

leftleg wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

where does it say that he must have a rigid plan on how players are selected. cian healy didn't have much experience when he got selected first of all but he was given the chance and even though it wasn't pretty at times, kidney stuck with him and healy is now turning into one of the best loose heads around even though he is very young to be playing in that position internationally (kidney could have used court)

Horan is ancient ; thats why

Well Horan was out with his health issues.

It was a straight shootout between Healy and Court, both of whom had been playing rugby for about the same amount of time! Interestingly there was no Munster prop in competition or who knows what would have happened. We saw Kidney somehow manage to select Archer over Hagan recently!

fitz

jm08 wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that Kidney applies experience criteria for selection for one player and not another. He's completely inconsistent in his selection standards, which must have an effect on the squad.

where does it say that he must have a rigid plan on how players are selected. cian healy didn't have much experience when he got selected first of all but he was given the chance and even though it wasn't pretty at times, kidney stuck with him and healy is now turning into one of the best loose heads around even though he is very young to be playing in that position internationally (kidney could have used court)

It becomes an issue when experience is the reason an inferior choice is made for a certain position. Earls is not a better 13 than EOM. But hey, he's got experience...

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

That doesn't explain why Healy was selected ahead of Court though.

Despite the popular opinion, Court is a pretty good LH and was definitely a better scrummager than Healy when Healy first came on the scene.

Healy was younger; far more dynamic and showed buckets more potential than Court has or did back then.

irishbucsfan

fitz wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that Kidney applies experience criteria for selection for one player and not another. He's completely inconsistent in his selection standards, which must have an effect on the squad.

where does it say that he must have a rigid plan on how players are selected. cian healy didn't have much experience when he got selected first of all but he was given the chance and even though it wasn't pretty at times, kidney stuck with him and healy is now turning into one of the best loose heads around even though he is very young to be playing in that position internationally (kidney could have used court)

It becomes an issue when experience is the reason an inferior choice is made for a certain position. Earls is not a better 13 than EOM. But hey, he's got experience...

I think that's far more debatable. I want to see Earls given his chance. I think he could be a better test 13 than EOM.

.ak

Reddan > Murray.

Simples. So why not use Reddan to win some games?

To be honest, if I was coach, I'd be looking to develop Murray as well, and I'd be giving him starts. But that's not what Declan Kidney is about - when has he EVER looked towards the development of a player so early without any experience? And why is he doing it with just ONE player now?

My reasoning would probably be there is a definite riff between DK and Reddan. You wonder if those rumors are true now.

Also, I'm interested in reading Kurt McQuilkin's analysis this week. As a defense coach it'd be interesting to read his opinion on the matter, which no doubt he will look into - Do you go to France with a defensively sound SH but that also is impotent in attack? Or do you go for the lighter, defensively unsound SH that is renowned for his speed and link play with the backs for attack?

Also, why is there this obsession for defensive SHs? If they have an all round game, ala Phillips or Boss, then okay I can see the point. France get on fine with tiny Parra, and Australia with Genia.

Cpt_Blackbeard

leftleg wrote: »

Healy was younger; far more dynamic and showed buckets more potential than Court has or did back then.

So...basically the same case as Murray and POM then?

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had been MOTM there for Leinster as well against Ulster but where he had plenty if "ability" he was very lacking in "beingfromthesouthofirelandicity.". Impossible to pick a guy like that.

Of course, similarly, its O'Mahoneys wealth of experience that has him in the same spot now.

since when did Ulster challenge Leinster in the magners ? have Ulster beaten Leinster in the last 10 years home or away ? Ulster usually put out a weakened side from what I can see .

unlike sob, O'mahoney has played a fair bit at no 8 (as well as 6 & 7) . munster seem to like their players to play several positions (or at least be able to do a job there).

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

Healy was younger; far more dynamic and showed buckets more potential than Court has or did back then.

So...basically the same case as Murray and POM then?

Not even close

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

since when did Ulster challenge Leinster in the magners ? have Ulster beaten Leinster in the last 10 years home or away ? Ulster usually put out a weakened side from what I can see .

unlike sob, O'mahoney has played a fair bit at no 8 (as well as 6 & 7) . munster seem to like their players to play several positions (or at least be able to do a job there).

Yes SOB has never ever played 8 and also he cant play 6 or 7 either; just ask Kidney

MrDerp

fitz wrote: »

POM ahead of Henry is the best example. It's ridiculous.

Perversely, this is actually the Irish approach to player development. It's not something I agree with, but policy seems to be along the lines of:

1. Player A is first choice
2. Players B and C are next on form and demonstrated ability
3. Player D is young, and is showing potential so might be better than B and C in years to come.
4. Always Always Always start player A
5. Give time to player D

Chris Henry is 27, and has been skipped over, regardless of form because someone younger is starting to put their hand up.

There's nothing wrong with making an international out of someone for 3-4 years during a transition, but our management doesn't seem to get that. It's only when our hand is forced, like when we couldn't compete in a single scrum a few years back, that an older player without international experience gets a look in.

This is why we have no depth in our squad - we keep experienced older players until they're **** and everyone resents them, and we pick flash youth over the seasoned campaigners with 6 Heineken cup campaigns behind them.

People complain about a lack of consistency in decisions regarding young players, but I think it's glaringly consistent. When oldie not available, pick youngest available option with 3 good HC caps under their belt.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think that's far more debatable. I want to see Earls given his chance. I think he could be a better test 13 than EOM.

You raise a good point. i.e; We don't actually know do we? As far as H-Cup performances go it's hard to convince anyone that Earls has played better at 13 than EOM.

However, converting those performances to international test games is a different kettle of fish. Which brings up the unfortunate point that this debate will probably ALWAYS be hypothetical, as we'll never see EOM in a green shirt at 13 now. Earls may well do well against France, but even if he had a mare and got steamrolled all day and let in 15 tries Kidney will still start him the following week, and the following...

So, based on that, I hope Earls has a great game.

fitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

[
I think that's far more debatable. I want to see Earls given his chance. I think he could be a better test 13 than EOM.

He's had plenty of chances and still looks flakey defensively. You rarely see him organising things on the field.

EOM is consistently solid, and is always pushing players around and communicating, organising the defense.
If he was given the same opportunities as Earls, I think we'd be better off for it.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

don't think obrien was able to cover 8 at that stage and if anything happened to heislip it would have meant too much moving around the backrow whereas leamy has 30 or 40 internat. caps at 8.

I'm glad to see this post has been laughed out the door already. On top of what has been posted already to refute this he had also played a lot of his underage rugby at 8.

I look forward to you once again trying to make up another reason why Murray and POM deserve to be fast tracked when other stand out performers aren't/haven't been.

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

So...basically the same case as Murray and POM then?

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Reddan > Murray.

Simples. So why not use Reddan to win some games?

To be honest, if I was coach, I'd be looking to develop Murray as well, and I'd be giving him starts. But that's not what Declan Kidney is about - when has he EVER looked towards the development of a player so early without any experience? And why is he doing it with just ONE player now?

My reasoning would probably be there is a definite riff between DK and Reddan. You wonder if those rumors are true now.

Also, I'm interested in reading Kurt McQuilkin's analysis this week. As a defense coach it'd be interesting to read his opinion on the matter, which no doubt he will look into - Do you go to France with a defensively sound SH but that also is impotent in attack? Or do you go for the lighter, defensively unsound SH that is renowned for his speed and link play with the backs for attack?

Also, why is there this obsession for defensive SHs? If they have an all round game, ala Phillips or Boss, then okay I can see the point. France get on fine with tiny Parra, and Australia with Genia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp-7fHbxb4

Reddan can be very loose with his passes. not a good thing with vincent clerc hanging around. Doesn't he have a couple of international intercept tries to his name.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

sean o'brien was capped when he was also about 22 and behind jennings for leinster - he then got injured in feb 2009 (missing the heineken cup final) and was out for most the season . he got capped the following nov.

Are you saying that SOB or Jennings missed the H-Cup final in '09? If so another incorrect fact from yourself. Jennings started in that final and SOB played off the bench.

Match-Day Report

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp-7fHbxb4

Reddan can be very loose with his passes. not a good thing with vincent clerc hanging around. Doesn't he have a couple of international intercept tries to his name.

Doesn't Quade Cooper? What's your point? You keep banging that drum. Point is he's delivered Ireland their two best performances in over two years. I'll take that over a couple of intercept tries.

EDIT: By couple of intercept tries I presume you meant Reddan conceding some intercepts. If you meant Clerc, well my point still stands.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had been MOTM there for Leinster as well against Ulster but where he had plenty if "ability" he was very lacking in "beingfromthesouthofirelandicity.". Impossible to pick a guy like that.

Of course, similarly, its O'Mahoneys wealth of experience that has him in the same spot now.

since when did Ulster challenge Leinster in the magners ? have Ulster beaten Leinster in the last 10 years home or away ? Ulster usually put out a weakened side from what I can see .

unlike sob, O'mahoney has played a fair bit at no 8 (as well as 6 & 7) . munster seem to like their players to play several positions (or at least be able to do a job there).

You obviously haven't the foggiest clue about what you're talking about! Haha

MrDerp

MrDerp wrote: »

This is why we have no depth in our squad - we keep experienced older players until they're **** and everyone resents them, and we pick flash youth over the seasoned campaigners with 6 Heineken cup campaigns behind them.

Current squad, with cap numbers included, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

We have 5 out and out wingers in the 30-man squad. 2 are starting on Sunday, 1 is starting at 13, and 2 are uncapped and outside the 22.

Poor McFadden has to provide cover as utility back. I'm not a particular fan, but while the first 15 are practicing drills in a single position, he has to know the moves and positioning from 3? Anyone in that situation is likely to have mistakes that taint their international career. Utility backs should be experienced internationals who are no longer up for consideration as no.1, not guys fighting for any ould place that becomes free.

We have 6 backrow players in the squad. The three replacements have three caps between them. O'Mahoney is number 1 replacement because he's supposedly on a hot streak from HC, and is younger than Henry.

Our squad development stinks.

leftleg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You obviously haven't the foggiest clue about what you're talking about! Haha

Its brilliant entertainment though

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

Yes SOB has never ever played 8 and also he cant play 6 or 7 either; just ask Kidney

we're talking about leamy getting selected ahead of obrien for the AIs a couple of years ago when Obrien had been playing 6 (and coming back from a season ending injury). up to his injury he had been covering for jennings at 7 who was suspeded for 3 months.

He started playing 8 about Dec 10 when Heislip was out for a few weeks injured and sob started at 8 against italy in last year's 6ns.

leftleg

MrDerp wrote: »

Current squad, with cap numbers included, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

We have 5 out and out wingers in the 30-man squad. 2 are starting on Sunday, 1 is starting at 13, and 2 are uncapped and outside the 22.

Poor McFadden has to provide cover as utility back. I'm not a particular fan, but while the first 15 are practicing drills in a single position, he has to know the moves and positioning from 3? Anyone in that situation is likely to have mistakes that taint their international career. Utility backs should be experienced internationals who are no longer up for consideration as no.1, not guys fighting for any ould place that becomes free.

We have 6 backrow players in the squad. The three replacements have three caps between them. O'Mahoney is number 1 replacement because he's supposedly on a hot streak from HC, and is younger than Henry.

Our squad development stinks.

Our coach stinks

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

Reddan > Murray.

Simples. So why not use Reddan to win some games?

To be honest, if I was coach, I'd be looking to develop Murray as well, and I'd be giving him starts. But that's not what Declan Kidney is about - when has he EVER looked towards the development of a player so early without any experience? And why is he doing it with just ONE player now?

My reasoning would probably be there is a definite riff between DK and Reddan. You wonder if those rumors are true now.

Also, I'm interested in reading Kurt McQuilkin's analysis this week. As a defense coach it'd be interesting to read his opinion on the matter, which no doubt he will look into - Do you go to France with a defensively sound SH but that also is impotent in attack? Or do you go for the lighter, defensively unsound SH that is renowned for his speed and link play with the backs for attack?

Also, why is there this obsession for defensive SHs? If they have an all round game, ala Phillips or Boss, then okay I can see the point. France get on fine with tiny Parra, and Australia with Genia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp-7fHbxb4

Reddan can be very loose with his passes. not a good thing with vincent clerc hanging around. Doesn't he have a couple of international intercept tries to his name.

Well you have to break a few eggs to make an omlete. Reddan may get picked off every now and again but at least he tries different things. It would be very hard for Murray to get picked off as he either passes 2 yards to POC or 10 yards behind the gain line. That is of course when he's not at the bottom of rucks or trying those silly box kicks every 2 minutes.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

Yes SOB has never ever played 8 and also he cant play 6 or 7 either; just ask Kidney

we're talking about leamy getting selected ahead of obrien for the AIs a couple of years ago when Obrien had been playing 6 (and coming back from a season ending injury). up to his injury he had been covering for jennings at 7 who was suspeded for 3 months.

He started playing 8 about Dec 10 when Heislip was out for a few weeks injured and sob started at 8 against italy in last year's 6ns.

SOB had played 8 for leinster before then. He even captained them in a pre season game against Wasps when starting at 8.

Leamy had no form, no fitness, and was an inferior player. It was a ridiculous selection.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

we're talking about leamy getting selected ahead of obrien for the AIs a couple of years ago when Obrien had been playing 6 (and coming back from a season ending injury). up to his injury he had been covering for jennings at 7 who was suspeded for 3 months.

He started playing 8 about Dec 10 when Heislip was out for a few weeks injured and sob started at 8 against italy in last year's 6ns.

And when did POM start playing 7 seeing as you said he was "primarily" an 8 and a 6

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Doesn't Quade Cooper? What's your point? You keep banging that drum. Point is he's delivered Ireland their two best performances in over two years. I'll take that over a couple of intercept tries.

EDIT: By couple of intercept tries I presume you meant Reddan conceding some intercepts. If you meant Clerc, well my point still stands.

didn't know quade cooper was a scrumhalf

the point of the video is to demonstrate why physically strong shs are preferred

I think the ireland pack delivered the best performances over the last 2 years. (see what ferris was doing in that video clip in one of those performances).

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

we're talking about leamy getting selected ahead of obrien for the AIs a couple of years ago when Obrien had been playing 6 (and coming back from a season ending injury). up to his injury he had been covering for jennings at 7 who was suspeded for 3 months.

He started playing 8 about Dec 10 when Heislip was out for a few weeks injured and sob started at 8 against italy in last year's 6ns.

Well I'm talking about the the AIs in 2010.

Yes that's how recently Kidney was ignoring SOB.

Timothy Bryce

Deleted User wrote: »

not to mention that there's plenty more contenders for captain before Sexton would be near the front.
Best, Ferris, Heaslip, SOB all far more likely candidates.

I think Heaslip would make a horrendous captain - he reminds me of BOD running around in 'K' during the 'Glenda' days.

Too much of a jack the lad for my liking....I think Best or Sexton would be better candidates. However, I think POC is the pick of the bunch at the moment which makes it a moot point.

Timothy Bryce

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

I think Heaslip would make a horrendous captain - he reminds me of BOD running around in 'K' during the 'Glenda' days.

and we all know how **** a captain BOD turned out to be...

:pac:

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

didn't know quade cooper was a scrumhalf

the point of the video is to demonstrate why physically strong shs are preferred

I think the ireland pack delivered the best performances over the last 2 years. (see what ferris was doing in that video clip in one of those performances).

The point I'm making is Cooper also plays the ball very flat against the line, which is very open to intercept tries. However, you don't see Deans dropping Cooper for it. Why? Because whilst Cooper could be defensively unsound he also adds heaps to the tempo and intensity of the attack. I'm sorry I didn't pick a SH comparison, but you get the idea, and the point still stands.

JRant said it perfectly: You have to break some eggs to make an omlette.

The two most impressive all round performances from Ireland since DK took over has been with Sexton and Reddan partnership. It's a fact that no one can deny, no matter how much you want to look elsewhere. The question is, why won't Kidney play a tried and tested world class pairing?