France V Ireland – Stade de France, Paris. Sunday 4th March 15:00 RTE2 & BBC2

Foxtrol

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

I'm not quite sure if that wink is sarcasm. I think that Murray and DOC being the more controversial selections has deflected a lot of attention away from Earls, as has him missing the Welsh match. He had an easy time last week but I can see the earlier question marks about him at 13 being raised again after the French backs get through with him.

fitz

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

I think it's more a case of accepting the fact that Kidney will persist with Earls, despite there being better options available, regardless of how much it makes a lot of us want to mash our faces into the keyboard. I'm expecting him to be shown up defensively again this weekend.

Spudmonkey

fitz wrote: »

I think it's more a case of accepting the fact that Kidney will persist with Earls, despite there being better options available, regardless of how much it makes a lot of us want to mash our faces into the keyboard. I'm expecting him to be shown up defensively again this weekend.

And the solution would be to put in a smaller guy for his first cap again the likes of Fofana and Rougerie?

WeeBushy

fitz wrote: »

I think it's more a case of accepting the fact that Kidney will persist with Earls, despite there being better options available, regardless of how much it makes a lot of us want to mash our faces into the keyboard. I'm expecting him to be shown up defensively again this weekend.

Yeah, tbh honest I'm the same. Barring injuries to Earls, Bowe and McFadden we're not going to see a natural 13 play. It's been thrashed out ad nauseum here so I've just accepted it's not going to change, so have given up talking about it. I think most people's position on the matter are clear.

I think it was because Earls didn't put a foot wrong, "did a job" etc.

From all the games I've ever seen him play at 13, the game las weekend was his most accomplished.

If he can repeat it this weekend he'll have finally earned a spot in a position that doesn't suit him, but that he'll be able to "do a job" in, for Ireland as well as Munster.

Quite similar situation to McFadden at 13 when it seems his strengths lie at 12 or wing. He can fill a gap at 13, or play as a second first centre as he has a Leinster a few times, but he's not a natural in the role.

WeeBushy

Spudmonkey wrote: »

And the solution would be to put in a smaller guy for his first cap again the likes of Fofana and Rougerie?

He's a better defender and he's only 2 pounds lighter according to their provincial profiles. They're essentially the same weight.

Agh no, not getting into this. No more!

fitz

Spudmonkey wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

I think it's more a case of accepting the fact that Kidney will persist with Earls, despite there being better options available, regardless of how much it makes a lot of us want to mash our faces into the keyboard. I'm expecting him to be shown up defensively again this weekend.

And the solution would be to put in a smaller guy for his first cap again the likes of Fofana and Rougerie?

You realise that same smaller player has already comprehensively handed Rougerie his ass?

Cave should have been starting 13 for this 6 Nations, but after his injury, EOM should have been our next choice. After Drico and Cave, he's the next best Irish qualified 13.

I'm not suggesting EOM get his first cap against France, I'm saying he should have got his first cap against Wales.

Not that it would have made much difference imo. As I've said, I don't think it matters who DK picks, he's still gonna send them out to play like drains.

Tox56

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

I did mention it on the Ireland thread, so I won't regurgitate what I said here, but it has been brought up.

CatFromHue

fitz wrote: »

You realise that same smaller player has already comprehensively handed Rougerie his ass?

Cave should have been starting 13 for this 6 Nations, but after his injury, EOM should have been our next choice. After Drico and Cave, he's the next best Irish qualified 13.

I'm not suggesting EOM get his first cap against France, I'm saying he should have got his first cap against Wales.

Not that it would have made much difference imo. As I've said, I don't think it matters who DK picks, he's still gonna send them out to play like drains.

He played well all right but to say he handed him his ass is a bit much. That game was also played in 2010 and it's 2012 now.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

He played well all right but to say he handed him his ass is a bit much. That game was also played in 2010 and it's 2012 now.

That was a bit over the top, but dismissing EOM based on size whilst advocating Earls instead is a little ridiculous, especially when we're talking about defence.

Spudmonkey

Tox56 wrote: »

That was a bit over the top, but dismissing EOM based on size whilst advocating Earls instead is a little ridiculous, especially when we're talking about defence.

Earls was dismissed earlier based on size so I don't see why it would be any different.

Fireball07

dtpc191991 wrote: »

This really is getting ridiculous IMO the best team we have available is.

1.Healey
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien (Evidence now suggests that he's adapting his game well in this area)
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. McFadden
13. O'Malley (He's the only true 13 not currently injured and I think in terms of building a squad should be getting his shot. That said Cave is the best future prospect for me atm unfortunately he's injured).
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16 Cronin
17 Court
18 Touhy
19 Henry
20 Marshall
21 ROG
22 Earls

So why the hell can't Kidney pick something like this!!!

I'd have something similar with maybe Murray and POM on the bench in some games. More rotation and the blooding of players in different games could be beneficial in the long-term. And Griffin is my favoured 13 for the long run, a pity he was injured when the squad was picked.



As for Earls, he did well at the weekend. France will be a bigger test but I don't think McFadden would do any better than him, EOM might but that was obviously a long shot with Kidney.

Tox56

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Earls was dismissed earlier based on size so I don't see why it would be any different.

In this particular situation the poster was suggesting EOM was too small but Earls was not.

I don't think either are too small, but I think EOM is the better defender.

fitz

CatFromHue wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

You realise that same smaller player has already comprehensively handed Rougerie his ass?

Cave should have been starting 13 for this 6 Nations, but after his injury, EOM should have been our next choice. After Drico and Cave, he's the next best Irish qualified 13.

I'm not suggesting EOM get his first cap against France, I'm saying he should have got his first cap against Wales.

Not that it would have made much difference imo. As I've said, I don't think it matters who DK picks, he's still gonna send them out to play like drains.

He played well all right but to say he handed him his ass is a bit much. That game was also played in 2010 and it's 2012 now.

He certainly got the better of Rougerie in that game, and has improved since then imo. Point is, we shouldn't have had any doubts about an uncapped guy starting when he was the best available option in a vacant-through-injury position.

Also, questioning whether he'll be up to the task defensively, citing players he's handled in the past, while advocating Earls playing at 13, out of position...sorry, doesn't make sense to me.

JRant

Spudmonkey wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

I think it's more a case of accepting the fact that Kidney will persist with Earls, despite there being better options available, regardless of how much it makes a lot of us want to mash our faces into the keyboard. I'm expecting him to be shown up defensively again this weekend.

And the solution would be to put in a smaller guy for his first cap again the likes of Fofana and Rougerie?

And how many caps has Fofana again? Why are people constantly harping on about containing this player and that. Defense is only half the game but I think DK has forgetten this. If we have 'small' centres then we should utilize this against bigger opposition.
EOM is well able to hold his own or he wouldn't be within an ass's roar of the Leinster team.
Earls did enough to deserve another go but if he wants the role long term he's going to have to start playing a whole lot more there, especially in big HEC games.

molloyjh

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

Done to death and we've bigger issues to worry about. Earls has done ok in the 1 game he has played. But in fairness that was Italy. Can't say he's done enough to prove anything yet. But we all know where we stand on the issue so there no point in wasting any more time on it. Instead we're just going to waste time on discussin the other issues - SH, SR and game plan.

Phonehead

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

Not really to honest, Italy are such a limited side they were never going to be able to expose his weaknesses - let's see how his defence does against a rampant French team running phase after phase.

Good old Deccie has kept faith with DOC and Murray, Comical stuff.

Spudmonkey

JRant wrote: »

And how many caps has Fofana again? Why are people constantly harping on about containing this player and that. Defense is only half the game but I think DK has forgetten this. If we have 'small' centres then we should utilize this against bigger opposition.
EOM is well able to hold his own or he wouldn't be within an ass's roar of the Leinster team.
Earls did enough to deserve another go but if he wants the role long term he's going to have to start playing a whole lot more there, especially in big HEC games.

Two very impressive first caps which were against the so-called weaker teams. But at least he got his opportunity to get those caps against Italy and Scotland. I have nothing against EOM and would like to see him play 13 after seeing him for the wolfhounds. But I wouldn't give the guy his first cap on the away trip to Paris. For much the same reason I wouldn't start POM.

CatFromHue

fitz wrote: »

He certainly got the better of Rougerie in that game, and has improved since then imo. Point is, we shouldn't have had any doubts about an uncapped guy starting when he was the best available option in a vacant-through-injury position.

Also, questioning whether he'll be up to the task defensively, citing players he's handled in the past, while advocating Earls playing at 13, out of position...sorry, doesn't make sense to me.

Getting the better of and comprehensively handing some one their ass are two pretty different things if you ask me.

He played poorly in defence at home to Bath in the HEC and then only started two out of the next 5 Leinster games before the 6 Nations break; away to Connacht and at home to Montpellier. Of the 5 games these were on the easier side compared to away to Glasgow and away to Cardiff. Not the type of form of someone looking for international recognition. If you look at Leinsters "hardest" games post RWC so far this season (Munster, away to Montpellier, away to Glasgow, away to Bath, and away to Cardiff) EOM didn't start in any of them.

While Earls may not have set the world alight at 13 recently neither has O'Malley.

JRant

Spudmonkey wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

And how many caps has Fofana again? Why are people constantly harping on about containing this player and that. Defense is only half the game but I think DK has forgetten this. If we have 'small' centres then we should utilize this against bigger opposition.
EOM is well able to hold his own or he wouldn't be within an ass's roar of the Leinster team.
Earls did enough to deserve another go but if he wants the role long term he's going to have to start playing a whole lot more there, especially in big HEC games.

Two very impressive first caps which were against the so-called weaker teams. But at least he got his opportunity to get those caps against Italy and Scotland. I have nothing against EOM and would like to see him play 13 after seeing him for the wolfhounds. But I wouldn't give the guy his first cap on the away trip to Paris. For much the same reason I wouldn't start POM.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

WeeBushy

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

I dunno about that. O'Mahony is a very very good young talent. He's already there or are abouts with Henry, and is considerably younger. He can go on to win a lot of caps. I like that Kidney has gone with a young talent on the bench. I just don't think he should start. Maybe against Scotland depending on how we're doing. Serving an apprenticeship from the bench ain't such a bed thing. Throwing players in when there are very good alternatives isn't always the right move.

JRant

WeeBushy wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

I dunno about that. O'Mahony is a very very good young talent. He's already there or are abouts with Henry, and is considerably younger. He can go on to win a lot of caps. I like that Kidney has gone with a young talent on the bench. I just don't think he should start. Maybe against Scotland depending on how we're doing. Serving an apprenticeship from the bench ain't such a bed thing. Throwing players in when there are very good alternatives isn't always the right move.

I'm all for developing good young players as well but I don't see any consistancy in DK's approach at all. Murray was straight in after a handful of games as is POM while others have no chance no matter how well they play.
Anyway I'm delighted for the man, it'll be a big ask when he comes on but it certainly wont do him any harm.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

He is 22. he started 5 heineken cup games this season. motm in 2 or3 of them. scored a try in france against castres.

he looked well capable against Italy when he came on.

He has captained the U20s all up the way and munster in the magners several times. he is a natural leader. stephen ferris mentioned that it was O'mahoney who reassured him when he gave away the penalty against wales and got yellow carded.

What more do you think he should do to make the 22?

jm08

JRant wrote: »

I'm all for developing good young players as well but I don't see any consistancy in DK's approach at all. Murray was straight in after a handful of games as is POM while others have no chance no matter how well they play.
Anyway I'm delighted for the man, it'll be a big ask when he comes on but it certainly wont do him any harm.

Who are the others that are missing out ?

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

He is 22. he started 5 heineken cup games this season. motm in 2 or3 of them. scored a try in france against castres.

he looked well capable against Italy when he came on.

He has captained the U20s all up the way and munster in the magners several times. he is a natural leader. stephen ferris mentioned that it was O'mahoney who reassured him when he gave away the penalty against wales and got yellow carded.

What more do you think he should do to make the 22?

that's fine if you think it's enough for him to be called up, I don't tbh, but I wish him all the best.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

that's fine if you think it's enough for him to be called up, I don't tbh, but I wish him all the best.

who has done more? henry got his chance with the wolfhounds and blew it.

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I'm all for developing good young players as well but I don't see any consistancy in DK's approach at all. Murray was straight in after a handful of games as is POM while others have no chance no matter how well they play.
Anyway I'm delighted for the man, it'll be a big ask when he comes on but it certainly wont do him any harm.

Who are the others that are missing out ?

Marshall, EOM, TOH, Conway

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

that's fine if you think it's enough for him to be called up, I don't tbh, but I wish him all the best.

who has done more? henry got his chance with the wolfhounds and blew it.

POM didn't even have to play in that game to be selected.
So you'll judge Henry's ability on one WH game then?
I'll tell you who has done more and can't get a sniff, Dan Touhy.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

Marshall, EOM, TOH, Conway

Unlike Murray, Marshall has only 20 min cameos in the heineken cup this year. last week he started for ulster and I suspect Ulster will revert back to a very flaky Humphres starting with Pienaar at scrumhalf

EOM isn't first choice for Leinster in heineken cup games.

TOH starts for connacht who has won one game in the Heineken cup this season. His day will come, but its not just yet.

Conway is just coming back from an injury and Ireland have plenty of back 3 players anyway.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

POM didn't even have to play in that game to be selected.
So you'll judge Henry's ability on one WH game then?
I'll tell you who has done more and can't get a sniff, Dan Touhy.

I'm not going to bad mouth tuohy or henry in that game. the way I'll put it the only one worth a shout for the first team from it was dave kearney who played in that game.

The wolfhounds lost to the Saxons. Scotland A destroyed them the following week.