France V Ireland – Stade de France, Paris. Sunday 4th March 15:00 RTE2 & BBC2

profitius

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

POM is not only a very good athlete but he has a good rugby brain, is very aggressive, is a leader, a lineout option, he can play anywhere in the backrow and he has very good ball handling skills. Hes been Munsters best player this season.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

I'm surprised theres not more debate about Earls. I think Keith might have quietened a few critics.

I thought he was fairly decent against Italy. The proviso being that it was only Italy, but given the dearth of options there it was enough to be selected again. I certainly don't think McFadden would be any better which seems to be the only other alternative. Shame Cave is injured.

jm08 wrote: »

Unlike Murray, Marshall has only 20 min cameos in the heineken cup this year. last week he started for ulster and I suspect Ulster will revert back to a very flaky Humphres starting with Pienaar at scrumhalf

20 minute cameos in the HEC are more then Murray had when he went to the RWC.

Kidney is ridiculously uneven in his promotion of youth to the squad. SOB had to wait far too long and Ross, though not young, should never, ever have been behind Hayes for the 2010 AIs. That was an indefensible selection. Yet Murray is parachuted into the team on the back of 10 professional starts (and it was a disaster imo).

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

20 minute cameos in the HEC are more then Murray had when he went to the RWC.

Kidney is ridiculously uneven in his promotion of youth to the squad. SOB had to wait far too long and Ross, though not young, should never, ever have been behind Hayes for the 2010 AIs. That was an indefensible selection. Yet Murray is parachuted into the team on the back of 10 professional starts (and it was a disaster imo).

Marshall is 26, he has had about 3 or 4 starts in the heineken cup to date in his career and while pienaar is a class act and would be hard to get ahead of him, he never managed to get ahead of boss who is about 3/4 4th choice in the ireland reckoning.

sean o'brien was capped when he was also about 22 and behind jennings for leinster - he then got injured in feb 2009 (missing the heineken cup final) and was out for most the season . he got capped the following nov.

ross was not first choice for leinster. he had about 2/3 starts in the heineken cup and then he was selected.

don't see what the problem you have with murray moving up the pecking order quickly. he did it with munster and reddan wasn't the stand-out scrumhalf in the magners final.

i think he needs a bit of time to get used to playing with a mainly leinster backrow and sexton needs to boss him a bit more like o'gara does, but that will come with time.

MungBean

jm08 wrote: »

Marshall is 26, he has had about 3 or 4 starts in the heineken cup to date in his career and while pienaar is a class act and would be hard to get ahead of him, he never managed to get ahead of boss who is about 3/4 4th choice in the ireland Kidneys reckoning.

Fixed that for ya, he's third choice in Kidneys reckoning but in reality he should be second. Murray did nothing to earn his spot, he's doing nothing now to keep it, he has only TOL to compete with at Munster who made such a show of himself in the RWC warm ups he played himself out of the squad entirely.

don't see what the problem you have with murray moving up the pecking order quickly. he did it with munster and reddan wasn't the stand-out scrumhalf in the magners final.

Problem is that he shouldnt be there, I dont give a flying fcuk who was the "stand out SH in the magners league final" one stand out game at that level doesnt (or shoudlnt if a coach has any cop on) make a payer first choice at international level. I didnt mind him going to the world cup at TOL's expense but it was utter stupidity on Kidneys part that catapulted Murray to the top, not ability and not form.

i think he needs a bit of time to get used to playing with a mainly leinster backrow and sexton needs to boss him a bit more like o'gara does, but that will come with time.

He needs time to develop is what he needs and that time should be spent in the wolf hounds and the odd bench spot not at starting 9 in crucial games.

jm08

MungBean wrote: »

Fixed that for ya, he's third choice in Kidneys reckoning but in reality he should be second. Murray did nothing to earn his spot, he's doing nothing now to keep it, he has only TOL to compete with at Munster who made such a show of himself in the RWC warm ups he played himself out of the squad entirely.

Problem is that he shouldnt be there, I dont give a flying fcuk who was the "stand out SH in the magners league final" one stand out game at that level doesnt (or shoudlnt if a coach has any cop on) make a payer first choice at international level. I didnt mind him going to the world cup at TOL's expense but it was utter stupidity on Kidneys part that catapulted Murray to the top, not ability and not form.

He needs time to develop is what he needs and that time should be spent in the wolf hounds and the odd bench spot not at starting 9 in crucial games.

your problems with the process of how he was selected to go to the world cup seem to have clouded your judgement.

murray development at provincial level has seen him start all 6 of the heineken cup group stages this year, which is more than any other irish qualified scrumhalf can claim to have done, and he is a good bit younger than the rest of them . all the more impressive when you see that munster's 3/4th scrumhalf was making the team of the one english team that made the knockouts of the heineken cup.

MungBean

jm08 wrote: »

your problems with the process of how he was selected to go to the world cup seem to have clouded your judgement.

murray development at provincial level has seen him start all 6 of the heineken cup group stages this year, which is more than any other irish qualified scrumhalf can claim to have done, and he is a good bit younger than the rest of them . all the more impressive when you see that munster's 3/4th scrumhalf was making the team of the one english team that made the knockouts of the heineken cup.

If Kidney was to start Marshall on Sunday it would be more warranted than his starting of Murray in the world cup. Thats how utterly stupid his selection was.

I dont think my issues with his world cup selection are clouding my judgement at all, its clear and has been since he was originally selected by Kidney that he's not capable of playing to an international level. He will be in future but he's not currently, I'm basing that on his entire international career to date. He has had an opportunity that virtually no other player has ever had. He was taken and started at the world cup on a whim and allowed remain as first choice since despite not stepping up and being out performed by his bench cover both at club level and international level.

Starting doesnt show his ability it only shows his lack of competition. Stringer going to england as a last resort makes that all the more impressive ? Despite him being shown up over there ? If anything it showed how little Murray had to do to get ahead at Munster, Stringer over the hill and TOL making a show of himself. Boss, Reddan and Marshall all have to compete with international standard SH's for position. Murray doesnt, he has had a clear path to the top and nobody within a hundred miles of taking that off him. The fact is he wouldnt be a starting SH for Ulster or Leinster and you know it so his starting at Munster isnt grounds to have him in the Irish squad at all let alone starting.

But uncle Deccie likes him and it seems thats worth more than ability or form.

Leinster7

I hate to say I told you so guys but I have been calling for DK's head for at least 2 years now and little has changed.

You are all correct in what you say about Reddan, Ryan, EOM, Touhy and others not getting the opportunities they deserve.

The real problems with DK's management at International level are his man-management/player management skills. These were fine at provincial level but just haven't cut it at International level. He has woefully mis-managed a number of players, dropping them after good performances or not selecting them on the back of good performances etc. in order to accommodate experienced Munster players that are out of form. (This is not a blue-tinted comment etc. just fact unfortunately)

I don't believe that the players have the same confidence in DK as they do int heir provincial coaches and the lack of positive results confirms that.

Players who are nailing it in the HC in intense high paced games over in France eg. are dropping balls and looking out of shape in Internationals, often against weaker opposition. This is a mental thing and a confidence issue of which there has been an issue imo for some time now.

The lack of a long-term strategy and game style is also a major concern. DK is a very defensive minded coach and prefers that Ireland adopt a playstyle to suit the opposition we are playing in order to neutralise them and then go on and win the game. This has failed time and time again against good sides and the lack of vision to just play our own style of game a la Leinster and Munster is frustrating and a waste of these players' talents.

I feel sorry for these players. We have World Class players for pretty much every position yet to quote a proverb, "where there is no vision , the people perish".

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that, it's not the time nor the place for either of them to debut.
Wrt POM it seems rather harsh on the likes of Henry and others that he's parachuted in ahead of them though. I mean has he really done enough to deserve to be in the 22 atm.

POM is not only a very good athlete but he has a good rugby brain, is very aggressive, is a leader, a lineout option, he can play anywhere in the backrow and he has very good ball handling skills. Hes been Munsters best player this season.

He has a very poor breakdown technique almost entirely because he lacks the mass to hold his ground. It's something that won't be an issue in 2/3 years but right now his breakdown technique is all bluster and no substance.

I love the guy, I love watching him play. But he is not as good a 7 as Chris Henry due entirely to the fact Henry has been a professional for a much longer time.

I would have our best 7 on the bench because we have 2 6s and 2 8s on the field.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

POM didn't even have to play in that game to be selected.
So you'll judge Henry's ability on one WH game then?
I'll tell you who has done more and can't get a sniff, Dan Touhy.

I'm not going to bad mouth tuohy or henry in that game. the way I'll put it the only one worth a shout for the first team from it was dave kearney who played in that game.

The wolfhounds lost to the Saxons. Scotland A destroyed them the following week.

Did you see the Wolfhounds game? Have you seen Henry play H Cup rugby this season?

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Unlike Murray, Marshall has only 20 min cameos in the heineken cup this year. last week he started for ulster and I suspect Ulster will revert back to a very flaky Humphres starting with Pienaar at scrumhalf

EOM isn't first choice for Leinster in heineken cup games.

TOH starts for connacht who has won one game in the Heineken cup this season. His day will come, but its not just yet.

Conway is just coming back from an injury and Ireland have plenty of back 3 players anyway.

How many Heineken Cup games had Murray played before togging out for Ireland at the WC?

It's such a ridiculously bad metric to base player choice on, and one that people like to use when suggesting X over Y but pretend/forget/don't know that there's players who have had no exposure before selection.

dtpc191991

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'd have something similar with maybe Murray and POM on the bench in some games. More rotation and the blooding of players in different games could be beneficial in the long-term. And Griffin is my favoured 13 for the long run, a pity he was injured when the squad was picked.



As for Earls, he did well at the weekend. France will be a bigger test but I don't think McFadden would do any better than him, EOM might but that was obviously a long shot with Kidney.

I like that idea. These players could be brought on between 50 and 60 mins. That would hopefully build a strong squad with relatively young players. I'd also probably start Fitzgearald ahead of Trimble once he's back from injury and match fit and rotate Earls, Trimble and D.Kearney on the bench.

irishbucsfan

I think my team at this point would be

Healy
Best
Ross
Ryan
OConnell
Ferris
OBrien
Heaslip
Reddan/Boss
Sexton
Trimble
D'Arcy/Wallace
Earls
Bowe
Kearney

Cronin
Court
Tuohy
Henry
Boss/Reddan
ROG
McFadden

Id have the Boss/Reddan away/home rotation at international level. Id start Murray/O'Gara against Scotland. Id start Paddy Wallace in one or two home games because competition at 12 is much needed and he offers something far different that could get the best out of Earls. I'd give Cronin a start as well against Scotland.

GerM

Would hate to see this place if Ireland hadn't won by 32 points last week...

Tox56

GerM wrote: »

Would hate to see this place if Ireland hadn't won by 32 points last week...

We only started to pull away when certain players came on, the same players who are back on the bench this week.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Unlike Murray, Marshall has only 20 min cameos in the heineken cup this year. last week he started for ulster and I suspect Ulster will revert back to a very flaky Humphres starting with Pienaar at scrumhalf

EOM isn't first choice for Leinster in heineken cup games.

TOH starts for connacht who has won one game in the Heineken cup this season. His day will come, but its not just yet.

Conway is just coming back from an injury and Ireland have plenty of back 3 players anyway.

So neither are Reddan, Healy et al? This has been done to death, but it is rotation by Joe. If EOM isn't first choice, who is?

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

GerM wrote: »

Would hate to see this place if Ireland hadn't won by 32 points last week...

We only started to pull away when certain players came on, the same players who are back on the bench this week.

And will come on again this week. People here are going OTT. The teams will stay close for 60 minutes and then we could well push ahead if Kidney gets his changes right again.

We have a strong chance imo, so long as D'Arcy can handle Fofana who will be a handful.

bamboozle

profitius wrote: »

POM is not only a very good athlete but he has a good rugby brain, is very aggressive, is a leader, a lineout option, he can play anywhere in the backrow and he has very good ball handling skills. Hes been Munsters best player this season.

dont disagree with the above, however it worth mentioning that Niall Ronan has been Munsters first choice 7 in the HC this season until injury struck.
POM is not a better player than SOB, Ferris or Heaslip and he's not a better 7 than any of them. However i'd expect to see him start against scotland, with Kidney opting to rest Ferris.

Big weekend ahead, lets hope DOC keeps up all his 'unseen' work (whatever that is) and Murray uses his physique around the fringes. The physical nature of this game always meant DK was going to pump for Murray to start.

I just hope we can hang on to france in the first 20-30 mins -

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

Would hate to see this place if Ireland hadn't won by 32 points last week...

Two points on that:

1. We struggled to impose ourselves on Italy at home for the first 50-60 minutes. Now the same team (and presumably similar tactics) will be used against France in Paris. Do you see why people are concerned?
2. The 32-point margin glosses over some pretty serious shortcomings and I think a lot of people would have been happier with a narrower win if it meant that the team and management were forced to take a closer look at what is and is not happening.

It's easy to say that people are being negative and pessimistic, but the reason there is so much debate and frustration is not because people like to moan, but because we know this team is capable of more. We see these players week in, week out for Leinster, Munster and Ulster playing at a level which is way above what we're seeing for Ireland.* We want them to replicate this form for the national team and there's no reason they can't do it, so it's disappointing, for me at least, to see them struggling.

I think the Murray/Reddan debate, like the Sexton/ROG debate before it, is detracting from a serious examination of why these players aren't clicking like they ought to (and I mean in the media in general, not just on boards)

You can say that it's negativity or nay-saying if you want but the fact is, if this team continues to play like it has been doing, we are going to lose very badly on Sunday. No-one wants to see that and there's no reason why it has to happen; these players are good enough, man for man, to win in Paris, London and pretty much anywhere else and it's gut-wrenching for me to see that it's not happening.

*You might counter this by saying that internationals are a step up from Heineken Cup; that Italian team would not be remotely competitive in the HC and we still floundered badly...

chris85

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And will come on again this week. People here are going OTT. The teams will stay close for 60 minutes and then we could well push ahead if Kidney gets his changes right again.

We have a strong chance imo, so long as D'Arcy can handle Fofana who will be a handful.

D'Arcy was much improved last week. He has always been excellent defensively and I think he will contain Fofana, I am hoping he can test Fofana's defense.

I think people calling for Marshall to start should take a pill and chill. Reddan deserves the start, other than that Boss would be next in line, he is playing great and would be next in line for the match day squad.

We need to start well though, cant afford to go a few tries down in Paris, the heads will drop and Paris is not a good place to have your backs to the wall. Start strong, an early try to silence the crowd would be great.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Two points on that:

1. We struggled to impose ourselves on Italy at home for the first 50-60 minutes. Now the same team (and presumably similar tactics) will be used against France in Paris. Do you see why people are concerned?
2. The 32-point margin glosses over some pretty serious shortcomings and I think a lot of people would have been happier with a narrower win if it meant that the team and management were forced to take a closer look at what is and is not happening.

It's easy to say that people are being negative and pessimistic, but the reason there is so much debate and frustration is not because people like to moan, but because we know this team is capable of more. We see these players week in, week out for Leinster, Munster and Ulster playing at a level which is way above what we're seeing for Ireland.* We want them to replicate this form for the national team and there's no reason they can't do it, so it's disappointing, for me at least, to see them struggling.

I think the Murray/Reddan debate, like the Sexton/ROG debate before it, is detracting from a serious examination of why these players aren't clicking like they ought to (and I mean in the media in general, not just on boards)

You can say that it's negativity or nay-saying if you want but the fact is, if this team continues to play like it has been doing, we are going to lose very badly on Sunday. No-one wants to see that and there's no reason why it has to happen; these players are good enough, man for man, to win in Paris, London and pretty much anywhere else and it's gut-wrenching for me to see that it's not happening.

*You might counter this by saying that internationals are a step up from Heineken Cup; that Italian team would not be remotely competitive in the HC and we still floundered badly...

I don't think that this is quite true to be honest.

The Italian team have always been well able for the physical side of the game for 60 minutes. I think that it was always expected that we'd have a scrappy game with Italian pressure spoiling Irish attacks, and forcing errors. The thing is we knew that the gaps would eventually come.

I'd be amazed if in the past 10 seasons, that in Ireland v Italy games, we haven't outscored ourselves 2:1 in the last 20 minutes vs the first 60 minutes.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post. The sooner we get someone with an eye on the horizon as opposed to staring at their shoes, the better.

irishbucsfan

Wow. The Italian pack would batter most packs in the H Cup!!! Their back row (Barbieri, Zanni, Parisse with Bergamasco) is better than any in the Heineken Cup. Their front row would dominate as well.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have been better in the first half but to say Italy wouldn't be competitive in the H Cup is absolute madness and very dismissive/disrespectful to an excellent pack of forwards.

Murray isn't up to it. That's it. The rest of the team are more than good enough. All our problems are stemming from being useless in possession when Murray is on the field.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Murray isn't up to it. That's it. The rest of the team are more than good enough. All our problems are stemming from being useless in possession when Murray is on the field.

ah c'mon now.

There has been plenty of times when we've done sfa when Murray does throw the same pass that Reddan would have.

The problem in the team is how they're set up to play the game. Obviously certain selections compound this issue, but the underlying problem is that we are trying to play conservative rugby with a team that's first instinct is to attack.

They're being asked to shackle their instincts, and turn the game into a wrestling match.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wow. The Italian pack would batter most packs in the H Cup!!! Their back row (Barbieri, Zanni, Parisse with Bergamasco) is better than any in the Heineken Cup. Their front row would dominate as well.

I disagree; that Italian front row on Saturday was very poor I thought and would not dominate any of the better HC teams. It's a good back row alright, Parisse is obviously a hero and Barbieri has come on in leaps and bounds this season.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Murray isn't up to it. That's it. The rest of the team are more than good enough. All our problems are stemming from being useless in possession when Murray is on the field.

Sort of trampled all over my point about "the Murray/Reddan debate is detracting from a serious examination of why these players aren't clicking" there mate!

My name is Mud

My two cents on the SH issue...

Although Reddan has shown that he should start, and in my opinion, he should, but Uncle Deccie seems to think differently.

Why? Possibly that he thinks that CM needs to develop more, or the fact that Murray is aware of his failings in the Italy game. Even the crowd in landsdowne were giving him grief.

I think he is a great prospect. Does that mean he should start, after being shown up? Maybe he wants to put things right and show what he can really do? Murray can't be completely blind to all the negative coverage he has received???

I think, reward Reddan, and start him. If CM needs to prove himself, he can do that at 70mins from the bench.

We need to be fast against France, otherwise it's a one horse race.

irishbucsfan

1. We set out to play an attacking game last week. Anyone could see that. Spreading ball on first/second phase. The problem was our half backs. As we went deeper into phase play the ball got slower and slower and passing became poorer. Sexton tried kicking and did so poorly, nothing else he could do really.

2. Cittadini is just yet another talented Italian TH and that gougey hooker is a great scrummager. Definitely think calling them poor is a misjudgement.

3. I don't think there are many problems with this team. Just management. Most units in the team are playing well but our half backs are letting them down big time. Put them back with their provincial partners and there would be a massive improvement in their performances and the teams performance. We saw that at the weekend.

ed7890

Tox56 wrote: »

So neither are Reddan, Healy et al? This has been done to death, but it is rotation by Joe. If EOM isn't first choice, who is?

CatFromHue had a good post about EOM 2 pages back I thought. Did you see it, what do you think? The main points was that while EOM was part of the rotation, he was only played really in the easier games.

ed7890

ed7890 wrote: »

CatFromHue had a good post about EOM 2 pages back I thought. Did you see it, what do you think? The main points was that while EOM was part of the rotation, he was only played really in the easier games.

doesn't get much easier than Clermont away alright

JRant

My name is Mud wrote: »

My two cents on the SH issue...

Although Reddan has shown that he should start, and in my opinion, he should, but Uncle Deccie seems to think differently.

Why? Possibly that he thinks that CM needs to develop more, or the fact that Murray is aware of his failings in the Italy game. Even the crowd in landsdowne were giving him grief.

I think he is a great prospect. Does that mean he should start, after being shown up? Maybe he wants to put things right and show what he can really do? Murray can't be completely blind to all the negative coverage he has received???

I think, reward Reddan, and start him. If CM needs to prove himself, he can do that at 70mins from the bench.

We need to be fast against France, otherwise it's a one horse race.

As long as DK is in charge Reddan will never be a starter for us, its got to be personal with those two.
I just can't see how Murray could possibly have learnt what he needs to in a week. It takes a good SH years to learn how to manage a game properly. Thats 3 games in a row where he's played like a drain It was noticable how frustrated the crowd were with him on saturday but I'd imagine Sexton and the backline were pulling their hair out in despair.

We aint going to get fast though. You can't pick the slowest SH in the 6N and DOC and expect to blitz the french. The French will try to build a lead and then bring the old warhorses in to seal the deal. Our plan seems to be to bore them into submittion for 50-60 mins and hope Reddan, Ryan and others can save the day.

BoardsMember

I'm bemused by posts informing that due to the fact that the France game will be really physical, CM was always going to be selected for it. Newsflash - rugby is a physical game. Show be one international game of rugby that is not physical. Wales have a big srum half, massivee centres & wing, and a very mobile and strong running pack. We put in CM. Where did that get us? France are the same. If we keep on selecting teams to negate the physical nature of the opposition, and in doing so leave out better players, we're on a hiding to nothing. Especially in such a crucial position as SH. Did anyone ever bother to look at the stats for recent French outhalves - they go for guys who can get the ball away quick...as my wife says (though I'm not sure I care for the tone, nor the patronising pat on the head), size is not important , it's what you do with it that counts

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

sean o'brien was capped when he was also about 22 and behind jennings for leinster - he then got injured in feb 2009 (missing the heineken cup final) and was out for most the season . he got capped the following nov.

ross was not first choice for leinster. he had about 2/3 starts in the heineken cup and then he was selected.

Leamy benched ahead of SOB for the last set of AI’s despite SOB being in far better form.

Your point on Ross is just wrong. He was a starter for Leinsters all last season and was performing very well in the HC prior to the AIs but Kidney still persisted with Buckley and flogged Hayes ahead of him.

Both turned out to be vital to the 6 nations and WC campaigns and were practically ignored by Kidney. It’s clear that Murray and POM are getting preferential treatment and there are only a few things they have in common.