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Would you prefer to speak Irish?

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13567…16

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    #62
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    More relevantly the 2006 Census compilers note the following:

    'The higher the educational level attained, the more likely the ability to speak Irish. The relevant proportions for the population aged 15 years and over varied from 17.4 per cent in the case of people who left the education system with a primary education only, to 54.2 per cent for those with a degree.'

    This observation explains much about the sort of people who rant against Irish.


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    #63
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Thats a real German way of looking at things.

    If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

    But your place of birth is an arbitrary reason to have pride in a culture or land.

    I, for reasons little known to myself, hold Ireland to a higher esteem than I do England or Wales or Scotland or whatever. And I know if I were Welsh I'd do the same for Wales. It's completely ridiculous to do so and it's nothing something I actively engage in.

    Ireland is a just a normal country like many others, why should I believe it's [objectively] on a pedestal above others simply because I was born here?
    My Name is URL wrote:
    Wanting the country in which you live and contribute towards to prosper and hold on to some of it's core history and traditions however;
    Only if you view that history and traditions as important. Subjectively, because I was born here, I think they're important to some extent. Objectively they're not, or at least I can't see why history or tradition alone is important.


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    #64
    Agricola
    Registered Users Posts: 6,547 ✭✭✭Agricola


    Not really. If Irish was our first language, we would have an even more insular society than we already have, and thats saying something. I like that fact that as a nation, we are culturally in tune with the english speaking world.

    Ideal scenario would be for Irish language teaching to be an actual success in school, where the majority of children finish the junior or leaving cert, fluent.


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    #65
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yes indeed, and that would come under the option I mentioned above as 'Other' (post#46).

    #28
    Way ahead of you


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    #66
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't know why I should be proud of a country that I was born into. I could have been born in Botswana, or Sri Lanka.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no major objections to Ireland as a country, but I don't understand why I should be proud of being born where I was born, that was out of my hands.

    Lots of things are out of our hands, does not stop us showing pride in them.


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    #67
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    token101 wrote: »
    Why don't they speak to me in the language we both know like any person in Belgium/Holland/Germany would do when you visit their country? Why would anyone learn a language specifically to talk to someone in certain remote parts of the country?




    You could spend the rest of your years just speaking English and noone will care . don't learn Irish.

    I like to be able to have some sort of communication in the local lingo even if it's just my please and thank you.


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    #68
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Seachmall wrote: »
    But your place of birth is an arbitrary reason to have pride in a culture or land.

    I, for reasons little known to myself, hold Ireland to a higher esteem than I do England or Wales or Scotland or whatever. And I know if I were Welsh I'd do the same for Wales. It's completely ridiculous to do so and it's nothing something I actively engage in.

    Ireland is a just a normal country like many others, why should I believe it's [objectively] on a pedestal above others simply because I was born here?

    Only if you view that history and traditions as important. Subjectively, because I was born here, I think they're important to some extent. Objectively they're not, or at least I can't see why history or tradition alone is important.

    No one says we are better then everyone else.Thats not what pride is, well not to me anyway.


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    #69
    dhayashi
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭dhayashi


    I would love to speak it as a first language, and I agree that it would be easier to learn English as a second language! It's quite lovely.


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    #70
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Thats a real German way of looking at things.

    If I were born in Botswana or Sri Lanka I would be proud of my heritage and the people who came before me.

    Why?

    I can be equally intrigued in people of other cultures and places. I think one would struggle to define Irish heritage in the 21st century. Many people have different ideas of heritage.

    I'm pretty interested in how it is a German way of seeing things?


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    #71
    cocoshovel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭cocoshovel


    English as first language and Irish as nothing get away from me!


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    #72
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    hondasam wrote: »
    You can take your Irish language with you as well, pride in ones country is important, this you will learn when you emigrate.
    I have worked with lots of Irish native speakers, I love listening to it,I understand some of it but not a lot.

    In all fairness what are you going to do in Quebec, or Argentina or Brazil with Irish? Teach them póg mo thón and that's about it. You could get a job in any of those places with a useful foreign language. I'm not in favour of killing the language at all, but it shouldn't be part of any main curriculum. We should be teaching kids any one of French/Chinese/Spanish/German/Japanese/Portuguese/Arabic as core skills before Irish. These are real world skills you need in a global economy. If you want to preserve Irish, incentivise people to learn it, like having a few extra points in the LC for it like they do with Hons Maths.


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    #73
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Maybe I dont want to speak Irish at all?

    This is a revelation - mar dhea. We never would have got that impression from the perennial glorification of British rule in your posts. :rolleyes:


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    #74
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    hondasam wrote: »
    Lots of things are out of our hands, does not stop us showing pride in them.

    That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.


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    #75
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    why didn't you all pay attention in school?

    they were all pretty keen on teaching you it (no doubt).


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    #76
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    token101 wrote: »
    Why don't they speak to me in the language we both know like any person in Belgium/Holland/Germany would do when you visit their country? Why would anyone learn a language specifically to talk to someone in certain remote parts of the country?

    How many countries have you visited? what languages can you speak?
    Irish is not just spoken in remote parts of the country.


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    #77
    Abi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,058 ✭✭✭✭Abi


    token101 wrote: »
    Abi wrote: »
    I wish this was England. There. I've said it.

    Ryanair and Aer Lingus do flights daily.

    This internetting is serious business. Innit.


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    #78
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    philologos wrote: »
    Why?

    I can be equally intrigued in people of other cultures and places. I think one would struggle to define Irish heritage in the 21st century. Many people have different ideas of heritage.

    I'm pretty interested in how it is a German way of seeing things?

    I worked in Germany and they were brought up believing that they are just born to a nation and that it is no reason to be proud of it. They would offer remark on my pride of where I came from and my allegiance to the place. Mainly because I supported Munster.


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    #79
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    No one says we are better then everyone else.Thats not what pride is, well not to me anyway.

    "Better then everyone else" is not what I was getting at. But having pride in Ireland, not Wales, because I was born in Ireland, not Wales, is stupid. To me at least.


    I am proud to be Irish. Partly because of the reason above (I was born here) and partly because Ireland has, and does, maintain a great presence in the technological world, contributes quite a bit to peacekeeping missions overseas and numerous other reasons.

    Those are the reasons I would argue when asked why I'm proud to be Irish, and the Irish language has little to do with them.


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    #80
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    More relevantly the 2006 Census compilers note the following:

    'The higher the educational level attained, the more likely the ability to speak Irish. The relevant proportions for the population aged 15 years and over varied from 17.4 per cent in the case of people who left the education system with a primary education only, to 54.2 per cent for those with a degree.'

    This observation explains much about the sort of people who rant against Irish.

    Census figures? How many people believe in their own head that they have a decent standard and will write that down but don't have a word in reality? Lots. People delude themselves out of some sense of pride. There's no way if you took 100 graduates into a room that 54 of them would be able to hold a conversation in Irish. Not a prayer.


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    #81
    Martyn1989
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Martyn1989


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    Yeah, I'd much prefer if we all spoke Irish as our first language. I think the majority of people would be able to speak English very very proficiently as a second language, the Dutch and Norwegians have perfect English for example. We'd be still very much influenced as a society by Britain and the US in tv, film, sport ect. so most would just pick it up anyway.

    I agree, I'd say we would all speak very good english.
    We would also all speak english with very american or english accents because we would hear the majority off the tv.


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    #82
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    There is a difference between saying that I like living in a certain country to saying that I am proud of that country by virtue of birth.

    I prefer an open perspective to the world. I'm not particularly nationalistic or patriotic, but I prefer it that way. It means that I'm up for assessing what's around me with as little preconditions or preconceptions as is possible.

    Being Irish, is simply what I am, and since moving to the UK I'm finding that it is something that marks me off as different from other people. But as for whether or not I can be proud of something I was simply born into is questionable.


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    #83
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    philologos wrote: »
    That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.

    You did not choose your parents, are you proud of them?


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    #84
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    token101 wrote: »
    There's no way if you took 100 graduates into a room that 54 of them would be able to hold a conversation in Irish. Not a prayer.

    I've often been in a room with 100 graduates and all of us could speak Irish. We could also speak excellent English, but we chose to speak Irish because that's how we prefer to express ourselves.


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    #85
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    hondasam wrote: »
    Irish is not just spoken in remote parts of the country.

    This, very much this.


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    #86
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    hondasam wrote: »
    You did not choose your parents, are you proud of them?

    I've gotten to know my parents as people. It is because of what I have seen of them that I have built my impression of them. It isn't because of virtue of birth. If I was separated from either of them as I was growing up, or if I never knew either or both of them, I doubt I would feel the same way about them as I do. Strong families are important to me, primarily because of what I've experienced through being in a good family.

    I don't think the analogy of Ireland as my parents is applicable. Ireland's a place where I have lived. It has its pros and it has its cons.


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    #87
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    2006 Census (Irish Language)

    Summary

    1.66 million people having an 'ability to speak Irish' is not synonymous with '1.7 million people in the country consider themselves to be native Irish speakers'.

    It would be very interesting to see what level of Irish they speak!

    Two friends of mine ticked the 'Speak Irish' box on the Census form, and neither of them can get past the Cupla Focal, this then became a talking point after the Census, and reading between the lines "they thought" it was their duty to say that they could speak Irish, and that those who didn't tick the speak Irish box "fluently" were un-patriotic, so I would take that 1.66 million Irish speakers with a very large pinch of salt. Yes I know that there's a break down on the pdf, but if people just say 'I can speak Irish' when they can't where does that leave the findings? Even I can speak the basics of Irish, but I couldn't hold a conversation in Irish, but does that mean that I should have ticked the YES box to speaking Irish?


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    #88
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    philologos wrote: »
    That doesn't help me understand why I should be proud of things that are out of my hands.


    If you don't understand, then you don't get it. All the explaining in the word won't make you get it.

    Like trying to explain faith to an atheist.


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    #89
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    token101 wrote: »
    In all fairness what are you going to do in Quebec, or Argentina or Brazil with Irish? Teach them póg mo thón and that's about it. You could get a job in any of those places with a useful foreign language. I'm not in favour of killing the language at all, but it shouldn't be part of any main curriculum. We should be teaching kids any one of French/Chinese/Spanish/German/Japanese/Portuguese/Arabic as core skills before Irish. These are real world skills you need in a global economy. If you want to preserve Irish, incentivise people to learn it, like having a few extra points in the LC for it like they do with Hons Maths.

    You actually do get extra points if you do your leaving cert through Irish


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    #90
    wilkie2006
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭wilkie2006


    I'd love to be able to speak Irish fluently. Although I concede it's also down to the student to make an effort, I feel the education system has failed hundred of thousand of people. When you spend 16-odd years learning Irish but can't speak a word of it when you leave school - but can get by with French after 3 years - there's something wrong.


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    #91
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    If you don't understand, then you don't get it. All the explaining in the word won't make you get it.

    Like trying to explain faith to an atheist.

    I don't know if that is true. It is possible for an atheist to become a Christian.

    It should be possible for you to convince me as to why I should be proud of something I have no control over. I'm a reasonable person for the most part :)


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