Would you prefer to speak Irish?

policarp

Irish has come in very handy for me, especially when abroad . Street salesmen, beggars and general nuisances in bars and restaurants nearly all have some english, but not many know the cupla focail.

Irish is a stupid language. Ach Nil aon thintean mar do thintean fein, lol, ceapaim go bhfuil an teanga STOOPID.

Cú Giobach

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

at the end of the day though all a language is (including irish and english), is how we use our vocal chords to make a sound. nothing more than that really.

A language is a hell of a lot more than "just using vocal chords", we actually think in language, and what language you think in affects how you think, and how you think makes you the person you are.

what's funny is with Irish, many people are so desperate to keep it alive, but they don't seem to give a **** about these languages which have died out. why should irish be any different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language#Recently_extinct_languages

What an odd statement.
By your logic I suppose we shouldn't bother with conservation projects, because 99.9% of all species that have ever lived have become extinct.

Perhaps like every human on the planet we are more concerned about what happens in our own country than in others.
People all over the planet are trying to ensure endangered languages don't die out and minority languages are given a fair chance, we are no different.

lividduck

Irish is dead, so lets just have the funeral and move on.

speedboatchase

I always have to laugh when I hear an adult say: "I'd love to speak Irish", as if it's some impossible dream akin to winning the lottery. If you say you'd "love" to learn Irish but haven't bothered your arse whatsoever to learn any of it since you left school, then you don't actually want to learn, or have no motivation - you're just saying something that you know sounds populist.

Personally it annoys me that my future children will have to spend so much time learning a language that has so few real-world applications. I'd like to see Irish become non-compulsory by the Junior Cert at the very least. Granted, that statement will annoy a lot of people but I'd wager that a few of the same are the crowd that haven't done a jot of Irish since the Leaving Cert.

By the way, I'm learning Italian at the moment (just for the hell of it really and the hopeful ability to understand La Gazetta dello Sport) through the Pimsleur audio method and I'm surprised at how enjoyable learning a language can actually be. It seems a lot more practical than how I had tried (and largely failed) to get to grips with French or Irish in school - not that either had any bearing on my career prospects other than force me to go the long way around to get into the course I wanted.

Cú Giobach

lividduck wrote: »

Irish is dead, so lets just have the funeral and move on.

If that's the case I suggest you take a trip to Connemara or Donegal to witness the amazing spectacle of people using a dead language as their mother tongue and main method of communication, as did their parents, grandparents and so on back through the centuries.
Maybe you could even write a piece for the Irish Times about this fascinating linguistic anomaly.
Roll up roll up, witness the living dead language.

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

This is true. I setup an Irish group in my city a few years back.. We've had over 100 people pass through the doors.. but only about 12-14 people have come back with any regularity.

Funny enough D I reckon around 10% fluency is around the figure the Irish language would settle at if given the chance. And should aim for. If in the morning the government decided to really push for Irish from the ground up, a la the Israeli model(more on that), IMHO there would be seriously huge resistance to it and the fence sitters would dig their heels in in favour of the language the vast majority use every day.

I think some of those however who have not come back have probably felt out of their depths when sitting down for the first time, and hearing everyone conversing in Irish. It's new for many people to hear Irish being spoken naturally, with free-flowing conversation.. They feel as if they are not up to it or good enough.

Or D it's just not used outside a pretty artificial environment for them. It's a "hobby" language. I don't mean that as a denigration of it either.

Dannyboy83 wrote:

People's minds are blown by the fact that Israel achieved full penetration in a generation.

Yes but they had absolutely huge pressures to do so. Pressures few other cultures have had and certainly incomparable with Irish. The Jewish diaspora is incredibly varied, coming from different cultures and many different languages. They needed a lingua franca, a Jewish Esperanto and modern Hebrew was it. Interesting language too. Somewhat contrived as part of that worldwide native cultural revivals of the late 19th century. Interest in the Celtic languages seems to have kicked off around that time too.

a-k-47 wrote: »

Love to see this poll in scandinavia or anywhere else in europe, 38% not wanting to speak their native tongue.:o shame.

Well Scandinavians speak their native languages. 99.splat of Swedes speak Swedish, Norwegians speak Norwegian. Ask a similar poll of Swedes "would you prefer to speak Sami(lapp)" and you'd not get near 38%. The simple fact is, Irish is "native" in practical and cultural and aspirational terms for a relative minority of Irish people. 10% tops for all three combined.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A language is a hell of a lot more than "just using vocal chords", we actually think in language, and what language you think in affects how you think, and how you think makes you the person you are.

One reason I'd hate to see Irish die out.

People all over the planet are trying to ensure endangered languages don't die out and minority languages are given a fair chance, we are no different.

Yea but where we may differ CG, at least in a sense of urgency, is that I don't think Irish is any danger of dying out. Not any day soon anyway. No way. Cornish it aint. I'd put good money down that in 100 years even if Irish was taken out of schools etc Irish would still be around.

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

One reason I'd hate to see Irish die out.

Yea but where we may differ CG, at least in a sense of urgency, is that I don't think Irish is any danger of dying out. Not any day soon anyway. No way. Cornish it aint. I'd put good money down that in 100 years even if Irish was taken out of schools etc Irish would still be around.

I don't think Irish is dying at the moment either, consequently my interest in Irish didn't stem from either a desire to save the language or nationalism, but from a fascination with language itself and having one so different from English on my doorstep that one naturally gained my interest, and then over the years I grew to love it.

I only mentioned that to show there is nothing odd about peoples desire to ensure languages don't die out, and it's becoming quite the norm now around the world as people gain an understanding of how important all the worlds different languages are.
The idea that minority languages are no use in the modern world is now becoming quite an old fashioned notion, at least in the more progressive societies.

deise go deo

KatiexKOUTURE-- wrote: »

I'd love to be able to speak the language and I'm doing my Leaving at the moment so I am still learning.

I have a problem though with how it's taught in this country, I've been learning the language for 13 years and still really only know a very small amount of Irish. Surely we should have a nation of fluent speakers if the teaching was up to scratch?

This is a common mis-conception, the reality is that even if the teaching methods were as good as they could be, it would still be far too much to expect fluency as a result. All told, in English medium schools from Junior Infants to LC the average pupil spends about 1500 hours learning the language, that is not enough to develop fluency no matter how good the teaching is.
There are one or two ways that the number of hours could be increased with out impacting on the time given to learning other subjects, but even so it would not amount to enough for fluency(Fluency needs around 5000 hours of study)

Kids will not become fluent in the classroom alone, the point of reforming the curriculum is both to ensure that what time they do spend in the class room learning Irish is used effectivly, and that the student will have a positive experience learning the language.
This will mean that the student will be in a much better position should they decide to continue learning the language outside of school, which is the point of any language course.

Now one of the other major problems with Irish is that for the Vast majority of pupils, the only contact they have with the language is in the classroom, that is why I feel the government should support the setting up of Irish language youth clubs around the country to give kids the oppertunity to use Irish in a social context outside the classroom.

GaryIrv93

What an odd statement.
By your logic I suppose we shouldn't bother with conservation projects,

everyone has different opinions on the language, just because you see my opinion as odd or stupid, doesn't exactly make it so.
i wouldn't have such a negative view of the language if it wasn't forced upon me for absolutely no reason. by your logic it seems as though we should force everyone to learn the language, even on those who do not need it nor will use it - a waste of money and a waste of my time.
that is no way to conserve the irish language -
to conserve a language it's teaching in schools needs to be more positive, if it's going to stay compulsory. why is french so fun to learn while irish is just a dull subject? that harms the language even more.
thats an example of a way to conserve it. personally i really have no problem whatsoever with people wanting to speak irish - it's their choice, but what i do have a problem with is when i'm forced to learn it when im being forced to learn it against my will. if i do not want to learn it - then that should be my choice and my opinion only.

GaryIrv93

help to try to conserve the Irish language if you want to, but it shouldn't be forced on the rest of people like myself. let me learn it in my own way in my own time. forcing it on young people harms the language and it will die out at a much faster rate if it stays this way.

MiseryCat

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I wish we didn't waste money forcing a dead language down people's throats. If you want to speak Irish, pay for lessons with your own money in your own time.

I Agree I'm Irish never did the Irish language got the Exemption from Irish in school(Hated it) I speak English I took up french as my second language instead and I'm Grand about it , Most of Ireland and people speak English here and I think people should have a choice if they want to learn Irish or not ,Forcing people into a language that they did NOT want to do in the first place isn't right.:(

cosanostra

I'm a native/fluent Irish speaker and I would like it to be that all Irish citizens spoke Irish as their first language but have a good command of the English Language also.

I don't agree with the way Irish is forced upon people in this country and totally disagree with the Gaeltacht region in which I live. I think it is abused by people to avail of massive grants and doesn't serve to promote the language as people living in the Gaeltacht see the language as something belonging to them and don't want to share unless they can make money from it.

There is numerous cases of people not getting a jobs cause they cant speak Irish and the company cant avail of grant aid for employing an Irish speaker were as it should be the company gets a grant to promote and educate that person to learn the language thus keeping it alive.

Paz-CCFC

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

As I said, you have to take into account other factors. My point being that the census figures only show an increase in the number of people who claim to speak Irish. This in no way reflects ability or even interest, as was your initial claim.

My claim was that there has to be some correlation between an increase in people claiming to speak Irish and people who have, at the very least, an interest in the language.

I say "forced" to because it's compulsory in school. And, on my case, it was a very inpleasant part of my childhood. I would much rather have learn French, as I went there on regular family holidays, but even in secondary school, I was told I couldn't until my Irish improved. There are a lot of similar cases, some expressed on this thread, where learning Irish was an unpleasant experience.

In your secondary school, you had to attaint a certain level of Irish to begin learning a third language? I've never heard of a school taking that approach, before.

You then seem to argue that, even if Irish is unpleasant, you should be forced to do it anyway. How is this going to promote interest in the langauge?

My point is that Irish is no more unpleasant than any school subject. It's all forced on children in primary school level, mostly up until Junior Cert level and nearly half up to the Leaving Cert.

School is unpleasant to the vast majority of kids. Should we stop forcing that upon them? How is it going to promote interest in what they're learning?

Wibbs wrote: »

Agreed on all points CG. I myself would support the language and would truly hate to see it die out, just not to the degree of others. However in the Irish language environment in particular, there seems to be a crazily high proportion of people who all claim to support it, sometimes quite vociferously, but yet have never learned or even attempted to learn to speak it. Maybe it's that unique Irish mindset of "well it is and it isn't". We do love our contradictions

Reminds me of my football team, Cork City, when we were in dire straits. We had all sorts of well wishers, people like Michael Flatley sending messages of goodwill, several thousands joined to the Facebook page etc., yet we got the same old 2,500ish at matches and 600ish joint to the supporters' trust (which, to be fair, is a lot of people, but it fell someway short of the number of peopled "joined" to the Facebook page). With plenty of things, you have a load of people wishing/wanting it to do well, latently supporting the cause (and it is good to see that they have some interest, to be fair), but then you have a strong, hard working core doing most of the legwork.

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish is a stupid language. Ach Nil aon thintean mar do thintean fein, lol, ceapaim go bhfuil an teanga STOOPID.

Ach, fós tá tú in ann abairt a scríobh gan aon bhotún, ach amháin nach bhfuil aon fhada agat (agus is dócha go bhfuil a fhios agat cá théann siad, fiú nár chuir tú iad isteach).

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

why is french so fun to learn while irish is just a dull subject?

Speak for yourself. I despised French in school. I wanted to drop it from day one, but since it (or another European language, bar Irish) was (still is, I presume) compulsory for my course in university, I was forced to do it. I hated going to French classes and I'd see the weekend unofficially starting when I'd have my last class of the week. I spent hours of boredom learning verb conjugations, random phrases etc. off by heart. Unlike Irish, I was never immersed in the language - the teachers used a lot more English than they should've, imo. I wanted to do pass for the Junior/Leaving Certs, but I was dissuaded from doing so.

I thought I was rubbish at it - thought I could barely string a sentence together. Then, not long before my Oral, I had a practice spoken test and I did very well. I realised that it wasn't such a bad a language and I was pretty good at it. Learning it in a school setting was boring to me, but the language itself is great. Ended up getting a B in the Leaving. Not too bad for something I very nearly dropped to pass in. Unfortunately, I've let it slip a bit, as it's no longer a priority of mine, but I fully intend to learn it to the level that my Irish/English is at.

Cú Giobach

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

everyone has different opinions on the language, just because you see my opinion as odd or stupid, doesn't exactly make it so.

The comment that I said was odd wasn't one about the language, but one about people, specifically one about people who wish to see Irish survive and their not giving a **** about extinct languages. That was a strange comment.

by your logic it seems as though we should force everyone to learn the language, even on those who do not need it nor will use it

How do you make that out?

that is no way to conserve the irish language

I don't recall saying it is, nor even discussing or commenting on the subject of compulsion (except of course to tell one or two people I'm not discussing it).

why is french so fun to learn while irish is just a dull subject?

Only you know why you find one thing interesting and another not so. That's not for me, nor anybody else to tell you I'm afraid.

if i do not want to learn it - then that should be my choice and my opinion only.

Good for you boyo, you tell 'em Gary.

GaryIrv93

Good for you boyo, you tell 'em Gary.

not looking to cause any arguments here just to let you know. if your view of irish is positive, that's grand, nothing problems there. its your own opinion. mine just isin't so. (don't get me wrong, i don't mean to say i hate the language and that it deserves to become extinct or what not, just the fact that it's compulsory and the way it's taught in the cirricullum does my head in.) really though i'm all up for the language, and wouldn't like to see it die but it should be taught a lot better in schools to get students like myself to enjoy learning it, and more conservation issues should be thought out carefully) apologies for sort of misreading your first reply a little lol. we should probably just leave it at that,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

My claim was that there has to be some correlation between an increase in people claiming to speak Irish and people who have, at the very least, an interest in the language.

In your secondary school, you had to attaint a certain level of Irish to begin learning a third language? I've never heard of a school taking that approach, before.

My point is that Irish is no more unpleasant than any school subject. It's all forced on children in primary school level, mostly up until Junior Cert level and nearly half up to the Leaving Cert.

1. No, your initial point was very specially "poeple who speak [some] Irish has grown". There may be other factors to dilute this statistic. You accepted exaggeration of ability as one. Others being people who learnt it, but have no interest in it or rarely use it.

2. This was the mid 80s when Irish was seen as more essential. I handed in my chosen optional subjects, they rejected me for French, that was the excuse given. In fairness, it does make sense: don't take a second language when you have trouble with the first, but given half a chance I would have dropped the first. I knew then that it was the right decision and I've been proven correct.

3. This point, while true, does not change the fact that you still refer to Irish as being unpleasant.

For the record, I don't think that any subject should be compulsory after Junior Cert, and only Maths and English and Science before it, for purely practical reasons

GaryIrv93

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

My claim was that there has to be some correlation between an increase in people claiming to speak Irish and people who have, at the very least, an interest in the language.

Speak for yourself. I despised French in school. I wanted to drop it from day one, but since it (or another European language, bar Irish) was (still is, I presume) compulsory for my course in university, I was forced to do it. I hated going to French classes and I'd see the weekend unofficially starting when I'd have my last class of the week. I spent hours of boredom learning verb conjugations, random phrases etc. off by heart. Unlike Irish, I was never immersed in the language - the teachers used a lot more English than they should've, imo. I wanted to do pass for the Junior/Leaving Certs, but I was dissuaded from doing so.

I thought I was rubbish at it - thought I could barely string a sentence together. Then, not long before my Oral, I had a practice spoken test and I did very well. I realised that it wasn't such a bad a language and I was pretty good at it. Learning it in a school setting was boring to me, but the language itself is great. Ended up getting a B in the Leaving. Not too bad for something I very nearly dropped to pass in. Unfortunately, I've let it slip a bit, as it's no longer a priority of mine, but I fully intend to learn it to the level that my Irish/English is at

lol. i personally see myself to be quite good at french but less so in irish. irish isin't taught half as well of french imo. though my irish is an ceart go leor and my french is even better, i still dread oral exams in schoools, most nerve-racking exams of all. and they've changed the irish oral to where it's now worth 40% of the total LC, can't decide whether that's good or bad.

fryup

how about a third option in the poll...no interest in the irish language and no interest in speaking it