Would you prefer to speak Irish?

NakedNNettles

I wouldn't be unlike anyone else that I know, starting learning irish in primary maybe around first class, then spent another five years in secondary, left school and never used it again...not that I ever used it in the first place.

So here's the summary for all you lads living in your fantasy noddy land, thats a total waste of 11 years of time, money and resources not only at a state level but on a personal level.

Great country isn't it.

Cú Giobach

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

the irish language is already dying... just watch TG4 and you'll see in programs such as ros na run that half the words they use are english because there is no irish word for it.

stop wasting valuable tax payer's cash on having to have every official document & road sign, translated into irish.

spend those millions of euros on school or hiring more doctors for our hospitals.

The number (Latin) of words you used (Latin) in that post (French) that are derived (Latin) from various (Latin) languages (Latin) other than Old English might surprise (French) you.

Where do you think words like Television, Algebra, Curry, Jungle, Sauna and the thousands more......come from?

Stark

The difference is people acknowledge the death of Old English and let people speak the language they want to speak (Modern English) in peace without trying to force them to learn the old language.

Cú Giobach

Stark wrote: »

The difference is people acknowledge the death of Old English and let people speak the language they want to speak (Modern English) in peace without trying to force them to learn the old language.

What on earth does that have to do with people saying Irish is dead because (like all languages) it borrows words from other languages for new concepts or things.

Stark

The only reason for forcing the general population to learn it is it's our "ancestral language". If it was just allowed to follow its natural progression among the people who actually speak it day to day, no-one would have an issue.

Cú Giobach

Stark wrote: »

The only reason for forcing the general population to learn it is it's our "ancestral language". If it was just allowed to follow its natural progression among the people who actually speak it day to day, no-one would have an issue.

Again I'll ask you, what on Earth does that have to do with what I am posting here?
If you want to discuss the "forced teaching" of Irish please do so with someone who is interested, if you want to comment on my posts do so by all means, but direct your little issue to someone else.

Enkidu

Sleepy wrote: »

The words used in the document were invented by a translator in Brussels but if the "native" speakers of the language could only decipher these new words by translating their composite parts to English and re-combining them to get the English word, it's both (a) a sign that the language isn't a real living language (as otherwise it would be forming words for these modern concepts through usage rather than EU translators having to make them up) and (b) those "native" speakers can better comprehend the documents in English.

Although I understand your overall point, I just wanted to say that this technically isn't entirely accurate. It's quite common for speakers to use diglossia, where one of their languages are more naturally suited to certain areas of life. It's not a sign of a language not being real or living, in fact it's a common enough situation globally.

Secondly, why do you have native in quotation marks?

Voodoo_rasher

fully bi-lingual.

In addition, its known that pupils who are bi-lingual are better at solving maths.

Tir gan teanga is tír gan anam. Its easier to colonize minds of the population

when their language has been marginalized and made extinct imho.

The method of teaching it in the school system is simply murdering the language. Nobody has commented on this??

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

The state has never really pushed Irish in any sphere

That's gotta be one of the oddest posts in this thread.

DyldeBrill

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

the irish language is already dying... just watch TG4 and you'll see in programs such as ros na run that half the words they use are english because there is no irish word for it.

stop wasting valuable tax payer's cash on having to have every official document & road sign, translated into irish.

spend those millions of euros on school or hiring more doctors for our hospitals.

you my friend must be very uneducated....of course there is Irish for it.Do you know how old the Irish language is? In Carraroe and places like that in the Gaeltacht, thats the way they speak.

Enkidu

Wibbs wrote: »

Never mind that it's self reported and as we all know self reported surveys aren't worth jack. If they were all men on the internet would have ten inch mickeys

Have you ever considered that you might happen to post on a board frequented by fantastically endowed men? If the average boards user is loaded, hung(even the women) and has an IQ of 140, then I take them at their word, why would people that well hung lie?

Sleepy

deise go deo wrote: »

State support for the language has been luke warm at the best of times. The state has never really pushed Irish in any sphere, in education we have a compromise that dosent work, because the state failed to revive the language through education in the early days of the state, Irish fell into a kind of twighlight zone, the state could neither let it go entirely as that would be unpopular politically, but neither could it be bothered to do anything about the ineffective and often counterproductive system that Irish was thaught through.
The one actually usefull development in education for Irish, the Gaelscoil movement was not pushed by the state, it was pushed from the bottom up by parents, and often against staunch state oppisition, look up the history of the establishment of one of the first Gaelscoils in Dublin in Ballymun. State obstruction to Gaelscoils was not just in the early days either, it's still prevelant today, have a look at the hoops Gaelscoil Rath Tó in Meath had to jump through just to get state recognition.

Our education system is a complete mess. The teaching standard of Irish is a pretty low priority tbh. When was the last time you heard the CEO of a major employer complain about the lack of Irish skills in the population? Contrast that to the oft repeated calls for more IT or foreign language skills to meet the demands of the workplace.

Enkidu wrote: »

Although I understand your overall point, I just wanted to say that this technically isn't entirely accurate. It's quite common for speakers to use diglossia, where one of their languages are more naturally suited to certain areas of life. It's not a sign of a language not being real or living, in fact it's a common enough situation globally.

Then why bother translating the documents at all? English is more naturally suited to the area of government as the primary spoken language of the state. No need to waste money on translation services at all.

Secondly, why do you have native in quotation marks?

Because the vast majority of "native" Irish speakers simply aren't: they conduct their business in English. Yes, I'm aware there are some die-hard Irish speakers that use the language in their home lives but even the majority of those study, work and do most of their socialising through English.

In a similar vein I'd usually put "fluent" in quotation marks when discussing Irish speakers because, again, most reporting themselves to be so in the census aren't fluent by any stretch of the word. They may have gotten an A in Leaving Cert Irish but take the conversation outside of the scope of the course and they'd be utterly lost.

Sleepy

DyldeBrill wrote: »

you my friend must be very uneducated....

Can we have a crane to lift DyldeBrill off his high-horse here?

The arrogance you're displaying in this debate does your cause no favours. Rather than persuading someone with a point of view, you just allow them to dismiss the argument along with you.

Enkidu

Sleepy wrote: »

Then why bother translating the documents at all? English is more naturally suited to the area of government as the primary spoken language of the state. No need to waste money on translation services at all.

I'm not arguing for translating the documents, I'm just saying that, from a linguistic perspective, not having words for a certain sphere of business or law is not an indication of a dying language.

Because the vast majority of "native" Irish speakers simply aren't: they conduct their business in English.

Well, there are native speakers of Irish, so "native" speaker doesn't apply to them, rather only native speaker. Who is the group you're calling "native"?

Yes, I'm aware there are some die-hard Irish speakers that use the language in their home lives but even the majority of those study, work and do most of their socialising through English.

So? It doesn't affect whether they are native speakers or not. There are several people who are native Irish speakers, just because their parents spoke it, not because they're "die-hards". If they then go on to work or study in places where English is common that no more makes them non-native than Spanish students coming over here to study stop being native Spanish speakers.

In a similar vein I'd usually put "fluent" in quotation marks when discussing Irish speakers because, again, most reporting themselves to be so in the census aren't fluent by any stretch of the word. They may have gotten an A in Leaving Cert Irish but take the conversation outside of the scope of the course and they'd be utterly lost.

This I can understand.

DyldeBrill

Sleepy wrote: »

Can we have a crane to lift DyldeBrill off his high-horse here?

The arrogance you're displaying in this debate does your cause no favours. Rather than persuading someone with a point of view, you just allow them to dismiss the argument along with you.

On my high-horse? This is not arrogance, this is fact...

Arguments from both sides have been equally as strong and I've accepted a few very good points that were made, although I do not agree with a lot of them.

But stating that there is no Irish word for some of the terms in English is simply ignorance.Would you agree with his statement?

There are different dialects where people will mix a few words of English with their sentence like Galway.Where in Donegal you would not see this as much.

Sleepy

Enkidu wrote: »

I'm not arguing for translating the documents, I'm just saying that, from a linguistic perspective, not having words for a certain sphere of business or law is not an indication of a dying language.

Congratulations, I think you're the first lover of the Irish language I've come across that wouldn't advocate such utter waste of state and european funds.

Well, there are native speakers of Irish, so "native" speaker doesn't apply to them, rather only native speaker. Who is the group you're calling "native"?

So? It doesn't affect whether they are native speakers or not. There are several people who are native Irish speakers, just because their parents spoke it, not because they're "die-hards". If they then go on to work or study in places where English is common that no more makes them non-native than Spanish students coming over here to study stop being native Spanish speakers.

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

Sleepy

DyldeBrill wrote: »

you my friend must be very uneducated...

What other than arrogance would you consider that sentence to be DyldeBrill?

If I were to call you "very uneducated" for not having the same knowledge of areas I've studied that you haven't would you not be offended by that?


Now, I've not studied Irish since Junior Cert (I read comics and sat it at pass level for Leaving Cert rather than wasting my time on it tbh) but I'm still well aware that there are plenty of words in English for which there's no Irish equivalent so I hardly think it's a sign that Nothingbetter2d is "very uneducated" to surmise that the frequent usage of English words in Irish language programming is down to the lack of an appropriate Irish translation.

Enkidu

Sleepy wrote: »

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

Well the definition of a native speaker is a tricky one, but it's certainly not defined by which language you speak the most. In Catalonia many families might speak more Catalan or Spanish at home and it is common enough for a Catalan speaker to go to the rest of Spain and mostly speak Spanish, but they are still native speakers of Catalan. Perhaps you are using a different definition. Anyway there are several people who use Irish a lot because it is the traditional language of their home, not for reasons of being die-hards.

Sleepy wrote: »

Congratulations, I think you're the first lover of the Irish language I've come across that wouldn't advocate such utter waste of state and european funds.

Really? I'm honestly surprised sometimes by how bizarre the "language movement" must be in some people's experience. Wibbs posts above would be a decent enough outline of my position, our positions would be the same.

DyldeBrill

Sleepy wrote: »

What other than arrogance would you consider that sentence to be DyldeBrill?

If I were to call you "very uneducated" for not having the same knowledge of areas I've studied that you haven't would you not be offended by that?


Now, I've not studied Irish since Junior Cert (I read comics and sat it at pass level for Leaving Cert rather than wasting my time on it tbh) but I'm still well aware that there are plenty of words in English for which there's no Irish equivalent so I hardly think it's a sign that Nothingbetter2d is "very uneducated" to surmise that the frequent usage of English words in Irish language programming is down to the lack of an appropriate Irish translation.

I'll take that comment back and apologise, looking back it was a bit OTT

You see the thing your missing, although there may not be a word for it, there is a different term.You cannot directly translate English to Irish or visa versa.Its like any language.Its just how the script is written

deise go deo

Sleepy wrote: »

The teaching standard of Irish is a pretty low priority tbh.

I believe that was my point.

Cú Giobach

Sleepy wrote: »

Is someone really considered a "native" Spanish speaker if they converse in English the majority of the time e.g. Irish parents living in Spain might use English in the home whereas their childs native language would be Spanish since that's what they spent most of their time speaking?

If I moved to Germany today and spent the rest of my life speaking mostly German, I will still be a native English speaker till the day I die.
The term native speaker refers to ones mother tongue or possibly even tongues, a language acquired in childhood as you learned to talk, not a language you can for various reasons end up speaking the most.
People who are native speakers of a language would tend to do things like say mental arithmetic through that language, or in a sudden moment of stress cry out in that language, it goes very very deep and is inexorably entwined with our thought processes.

phonejacker

if i go to any Garda station can i demand to be spoken to as Gaeilge?

deise go deo

phonejacker wrote: »

if i go to any Garda station can i demand to be spoken to as Gaeilge?

Yes, though I would suggest asking politely would serve you better.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, though I would suggest asking politely would serve you better.

Are you implying that one is incapable of speaking Irish to the guards without remaining civil?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you implying that one is incapable of speaking Irish to the guards without remaining civil?

No, I was suggesting that asking politely would probably work better than demanding.

Sleepy

deise go deo wrote: »

I believe that was my point.

Can you not see the validity in mine though?

While I'm in favour of the removal of the compulsory status of Irish as an exam subject, I see no reason why it's teaching couldn't be modernised for those who wish to study it and would encourage any such move that didn't detract from more important study.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

No, I was suggesting that asking politely would probably work better than demanding.

Fair enough, I didn't take the word "demand" literally!

Wibbs

Enkidu wrote: »

Have you ever considered that you might happen to post on a board frequented by fantastically endowed men? If the average boards user is loaded, hung(even the women) and has an IQ of 140, then I take them at their word, why would people that well hung lie?

True. I suppose it's because I'm only 9 inches my self confidence took a hammering.

Da Shins Kelly

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I wish we didn't waste money forcing a dead language down people's throats. If you want to speak Irish, pay for lessons with your own money in your own time.

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

First of all, it's not a dead language and it's attitudes like this that are killing it and giving other people a bad attitude to it. Secondly, it's the Irish language, it's part of our heritage and history and if anything, there should be more time and effort put into improving the teaching of Irish and making it a better experience for learners.

It really bugs me how quickly people are prepared to just completely forget Irish and bury it instead of trying to hold onto something that holds serious cultural value, especially in an era when it seems that cultural identity is really being lost.

I really don't go in for the "heritage" and "cultural" buzzwords. So what?

I'll agree that more time should be put into inproving it, but at the end of the day you have to let peopel choose for themselves - as this includes kids. It's the arrogant thinking that it SHOULD be done by EVERYONE and that EVERYONE should hang on to cultrual ideneity that pushes poeple away from it.

You have to accept that it's simply not as important to others as it is to yourself and holding this viewpoint is perfectly acceptable.