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Would you prefer to speak Irish?
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,126 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59055
Agreed on all points CG. I myself would support the language and would truly hate to see it die out, just not to the degree of others. However in the Irish language environment in particular, there seems to be a crazily high proportion of people who all claim to support it, sometimes quite vociferously, but yet have never learned or even attempted to learn to speak it. Maybe it's that unique Irish mindset of "well it is and it isn't". We do love our contradictions
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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at the end of the day though all a language is (including irish and english), is how we use our vocal chords to make a sound. nothing more than that really.
what's funny is with Irish, many people are so desperate to keep it alive, but they don't seem to give a **** about these languages which have died out. why should irish be any different?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language#Recently_extinct_languages
irish just isin't useful in this day and age, most if not all people in this country can speak English better than Iish, could people not just accept that we speak english as our general spoken language? there's not a chance people will start speaking irish as fluently as english in this country, even if some new policy was introduced that people would get executed on the spot if they spoke english instead of irish.
i can understand that some people want to keep it alive, and value it, but why is it forced on the rest of the country to ''learn'' it in school? most people will never speak a word of it again, and the fact that its compulsory - which violates the most basic human right: the right to freedom and the right to speak their own language, is just disgusting. it should become non-compulsory in schools - thank you fine gael for copping that on, which the other parties didn't! let people speak and choose their own language, and we'd have no problems. if you want to speak irish, then go ahead, but it shouldn't be forced in people like myself, who don't want to speak it. 0 -
Agreed on all points CG. I myself would support the language and would truly hate to see it die out, just not to the degree of others. However in the Irish language environment in particular, there seems to be a crazily high proportion of people who all claim to support it, sometimes quite vociferously, but yet have never learned or even attempted to learn to speak it. Maybe it's that unique Irish mindset of "well it is and it isn't". We do love our contradictions
This is true. I setup an Irish group in my city a few years back.. We've had over 100 people pass through the doors.. but only about 12-14 people have come back with any regularity.
So while I certainly believe that many people would love to be able to speak Irish, not as many are willing to put in the effort required. Which if I must be honest, isn't even that much. I pop into a pub once a week for a coffee/tea - sometimes a few pints if my health permits. It's a nice social meet, without any classroom pressure.. A real genuine environment that's not forced.
I think some of those however who have not come back have probably felt out of their depths when sitting down for the first time, and hearing everyone conversing in Irish. It's new for many people to hear Irish being spoken naturally, with free-flowing conversation.. They feel as if they are not up to it or good enough.0 -
KatiexKOUTURE-- wrote: »I'd love to be able to speak the language and I'm doing my Leaving at the moment so I am still learning.
I have a problem though with how it's taught in this country, I've been learning the language for 13 years and still really only know a very small amount of Irish. Surely we should have a nation of fluent speakers if the teaching was up to scratch?
This is part of the (very unfortunate) misconception we have due to being a monolingual nation - the idea that we can reform the system and produce fluent speakers. That's not possible.
To attain fluency requires immersion, to retain fluency requires sustained bursts of high exposure.
I had the same misconceptions myself until I started learning languages independently. You naturally think after 13 years of language learning you should be fluent.
Of course, if it were the case, then people would become fluent much more often. Those who do become fluent actively pursue the language, in a way the average pupil does not - usually by going to gaelscoils, going to Irish college, being educated through Irish, speaking Irish in the family home or living in a Gaelteacht.
I'll bet even the brain boxes you went to school with who got 10 As in the leaving cert, even they are not fluent, if they have only learned though the school system.
Brain boxes are able to overcome the inadequacies of their teachers/system to achieve proficiency. So why are they not fluent in Irish?
The answer is because they would not need to overcome the education system - they would need to overcome the general population's apathy and resistance.
It goes to the heart of the debate really:
Q.What do people hope will be the outcome of reforming Irish?
If an Irish person believes that we can reform the curriculum and begin to produce fluent speakers, then they are fundamentally mistaken.
You could have the very best teachers in the world, following the very best methods. It will still never be achieved.
We didn't produce fluent Latin & Greek speakers in the 50s.
We didn't produce fluent Irish speakers in the 30s or the 90s.
We don't even produce fluent French & German speakers now.
We are asking the impossible of Irish teachers.
Our schools will never produce fluent Irish speakers, unless they all become Gaelscoils, Irish becomes the dominant language, and a significant body of the population are prepared to sacrifice the dominance of Hiberno-English.
The best we can do in the current Ireland is help you to prepare yourself for becoming fluent.
This is what they had to do in Wales.
People are looking at the Welsh system, wondering how they are managing to achieve such success compared to us.
People's minds are blown by the fact that Israel achieved full penetration in a generation.
People are looking at the school system as though it holds the key.......people are looking in the wrong place.
What do these nations have in common?
The answer is that the all sacrificed the dominance of one language, in order to promote a different language, be it Yiddish, Russian, German, English etc.
Now - compare Ireland:
We pay lip service to the language in school, we never hear it spoken in the home, or among friends. We do not even practise or use the language, not to mind immerse ourselves.
After school, you will never hear the language spoken again, unless you go hunting in search of it.
Then we are confused why our system is not delivering results.
If you spent 13 years reading about how to drive a car, you will probably be technically very good in some aspects, but unless you actually sit into the car and actually drive, then all you have ever done is prepare for a driving test that was never going to come anyway, and if it ever does come, you are not going to be a good driver....you've never dealt with the high pressure situation of driving a car at 100kmph with cars coming the opposite direction, the road becoming narrorwer, imperfect weather conditions............. how could you be a competent driver in fairness?
In every country, there is always a dominant language.
I will take Lithuania as an example because it's a country I'm familiar with.
In the capital, Vilnius, the dominant language is Russian. Polish is also prominent. Lithuanian is not very frequently spoken.
In the second city, Kaunas - This is the nationalist city - You will get funny looks or may even be spat at in the street if you are heard speaking Russian.
If you want your kids to learn Russian in Kaunas, then you send them to a Russian school, they will be educated through Russian, they will have Russian friends.
Russian must become an active part of their daily life in school, at home and among friends.
If you took the Irish system to Kaunas and expected the pupils to become fluent Russian speakers, they would probably have you checked into a psychological ward for examination.
To achieve fluency you need immersion.
Immersion in Ireland would require:
A) All primary schools become Gaelscoils
Education is conducted through Irish
C) The general population would need to begin conversing in Irish and desist from speaking English, in public and in private
I didn't particularly like language learning in school nor was I was particularly good at it, just average really.
After school, I discovered I really enjoyed learning language and actually had a bit of a talent for it.
I became fluent in Polish, took me about 3 years to get a conversational level, then the real work started, although it was good fun.
In all honesty, I now struggle desperately to retain the language, even tho I am exposed to Russian on a daily basis and there is a large similarity.
I simply don't get the exposure I once had.
Irish people really need to realise that unless they are prepared to get up off their armchair and actively start learning and using the language, then they are no different from the same people who publicly proclaim they wish to look like David Beckham, but simply won't/don't want to go without those 5 pints on a Saturday night.0 -
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