This type of Installer will destroy the Aerial business

Tony

Whether he did or not is irrelevant, its bad practice, especially in this case where it looks like a lashing kit is already in place.

NewHillel wrote: »

Did he damage the flue, or otherwise impact the structure of the chimney?

Cantona's Collars

@Newhillel, tell all that about incorrect chimney mounts to the person that got that aerial put up when the whole lot falls down.I've seen an eejit attempting to drill into a chimney that was fibreglass,how did he think the bolts were going to hold?

It's the "ah sure,it'll do" attitude that these guys have towards installs and complete lack of professionalism or pride in their work is the problem and your defending it doesn't help matters.

NewHillel

zerks wrote: »

@Newhillel, tell all that about incorrect chimney mounts to the person that got that aerial put up when the whole lot falls down.I've seen an eejit attempting to drill into a chimney that was fibreglass,how did he think the bolts were going to hold?

It's the "ah sure,it'll do" attitude that these guys have towards installs and complete lack of professionalism or pride in their work is the problem and your defending it doesn't help matters.

I am not defending bad practice.

However, ...

1. This installation was singled out as a particularly bad practice. I have seen much worse, undertaken by well known companies.

2. There is nothing inherently wrong in drilling a chimney. It depends on whether the chimney can support the load (including wind loading) and whether it is possible to safely drill without damaging the structure, or the flue. (Of course there are many chimneys that shouldn't be drilled under any circumstances...)

3. Times are tough, for many people, right now. That is not sufficient to start a witch hunt, without very strong justification. If I were the installer in question my solicitor would be writing to Boards.ie.

NewHillel

Tony wrote: »

Whether he did or not is irrelevant, its bad practice

Reference?
(While civil engineering is not my speciality, I cannot see any engineering justification for that position.)

Tony wrote: »

especially in this case where it looks like a lashing kit is already in place.

Why is that relevant?

Tony

NewHillel wrote: »

Reference?
(While civil engineering is not my speciality, I cannot see any engineering justification for that position.)

CAI code of practice and in 18 years of experience I have seen many chimneys damaged this way.

NewHillel wrote: »

Why is that relevant?

Very obviously because it could have been used by the addition of another cradle bracket . Forgive my bluntness but I don't see the point of debating this further with you as it seems you are hell bent on defending what is clearly a badly thought out and executed install.

jeckle

Has it been established that the installation was carried out by an ''installer''? It could well have been a DIY job done by the houseowner, in which case he might not call himself an installer at all.

Maybe the thread should be renamed to something like ''how NOT to mount an ariel''

St Senan

Its not a DIY Job the Installation was done by a guy who Advertise himself as an Installer on flyers stuck up in the local shop near that house and is calling himself a Saorview installer. There are a few more Aerials mounted on Sky dish brackets in the same Area done by him. the Next time i am in the Area I will take more pics.

NewHillel

scaller wrote: »

Its not a DIY Job the Installation was done by a guy who Advertise himself as an Installer on flyers stuck up in the local shop near that house and is calling himself a Saorview installer. There are a few more Aerials mounted on Sky dish brackets in the same Area done by him. the Next time i am in the Area I will take more pics.

So, you have a vested interest in undermining a competitor. I would reasonably have expected that you would have stated this.

Care to answer the questions I raised?

Tony

NewHillel wrote: »

So, you have a vested interest in undermining a competitor.

Thats an outragoeus comment to make you should consider withdrawing it.

NewHillel

Tony wrote: »

CAI code of practice and in 18 years of experience I have seen many chimneys damaged this way.

From my very limited visibility of its work, I have immense admiration for the expertise of the CAI and its general approach. I am not a member, and do not have access to its current installation code. I can understand why they would discourage drilling a chimney, as the potential to do serious damage is very substantial. On that same basis, I would not recommend anyone to drill a chimney.

However, we are not talking generalities,in this instance - we are talking about a very specific installation. In this instance it is the responsibility of the OP to illustrate why in this very particular case it is a bad installation - hence my posts. I am neither defending it, nor supporting it. I am correctly pointing out that, of itself, drilling a chimney is not necessary a bad installation.

I am frankly appalled that Boards.ie allow continuous posts attacking clearly identifiable companies where there is obvious, if often hidden, vested interests involved.

Tony

NewHillel wrote: »

I am frankly appalled that Boards.ie allow continuous posts attacking clearly identifiable companies where there is obvious, if often hidden, vested interests involved.

Sorry but it seems to me that this is nothing short of trolling.

Digitaltv

newhillel are you in the aerial satellite business ? as you seem to know it all, you always seem to be cutting down installers, and the information they post on this forum.

Cesium Clock

NewHillel wrote: »

However, we are not talking generalities,in this instance - we are talking about a very specific installation. In this instance it is the responsibility of the OP to illustrate why in this very particular case it is a bad installation - hence my posts. I am neither defending it, nor supporting it. I am correctly pointing out that, of itself, drilling a chimney is not necessary a bad installation.

.

drilling a chimney is a complete no no, apart from the health and safety aspects of using a drill on a roof, the vibrations from a drill can cause damage that may not be apparent immediatley but may cause serious structural faults in the future.

as it has been pionted out in many posts its a bad install.

sky dish bracket. for use with a sky dish on a wall.
lashing kit, for use on chimneys.

the sky bracket is upside down, water will settle at the bend, rust then failure.
water will run thru the bracket and stain the chimney on exit.

the picture relates to the title of the thread.

hope this clears things up for you.

MiCr0

Any one who starts sniping at other users is going to get banned.
This thread is for discussion on badly installed aerials.

NewHillel - you have made lots of generic statements here about people undermining competition. Do you also have any interest in this business?

Everone else - No personal comments or discussing other users. Topic only or don't post.

This is the only warning.

NewHillel

MiCr0 wrote: »

NewHillel - you have made lots of generic statements here about people undermining competition.

The key is generic - I have taken great care to be non-specific. This contrasts to multiple posts clearly identifying individuals and businesses. Many of the criticisms do not stand up to scrutiny and could be extremely damaging. There is even a suggestion that a series of pictures, relating to a particular business, will be taken. This can only be taken, on a public forum, as targeting the business concerned. It is entirely relevant to point out that the individual who proposes to take those pictures is operating in the same area.

MiCr0 wrote: »

Do you also have any interest in this business?

I have a professional interest arising from my background, qualifications and early career responsibilities. I have no commercial interests, in this area, of any kind. Neither am I connected, in any way whatsoever, with any of the three Trade Associations recognised by Saorview. (Many years ago I dealt with the CAI, in a professional capacity.)

Cesium Clock

NewHillel wrote: »

Many of the criticisms do not stand up to scrutiny and could be extremely damaging. )

as you are not an aerial rigger your definition of 'do not stand up to scrutiny' is totally irrelavant.

hopefully the criticisms will be 'extremely damaging' as the installs highlighted are 'extremely damaging' to the aerial and satellite trade, of which you are not a part.

cast_iron

Cesium Clock wrote: »

drilling a chimney is a complete no no, apart from the health and safety aspects of using a drill on a roof, the vibrations from a drill can cause damage that may not be apparent immediatley but may cause serious structural faults in the future.

I broadly agree. I don't think anyone is disagreeing actually.
That's not to say any damage was done in the picture above. However, I'd say it's fair game to point out bad practice (which is what people are doing here).

the sky bracket is upside down, water will settle at the bend, rust then failure.
water will run thru the bracket and stain the chimney on exit.

Maybe there are a bit different these days, but they used to be designed in a way where water could not settle on the bend - as the pipe part of the bracket would not quite be 90 degrees. Because of that, all the water would run out the spout, with no settling point at the bend.
Are they different these days?

Tony

Apart from the water issue is still makes more sense to face the bracket downwards as there is less tendancy for it to move . Not that big a deal on an aerial but on a dish its a different story.

NewHillel

Cesium Clock wrote: »

as you are not an aerial rigger your definition of 'do not stand up to scrutiny' is totally irrelavant.

It is not a 'definition' it is simply an informed opinion. I am not an Architect or Civil Engineer so I'm not in a position to specify what constitutes 'best practice', in attaching fitments to structures. Ideally, the trade would be regulated and formal definitions, covering this jurisdiction, would be in place. As it is not, I readily accept that the CAI Code of Practice is a good reference point in relation to aerial installs.

(To be clear, I am not recommending that anyone drill a chimney. If done incorrectly, or on an unsuitable structure, it could cause serious structural damage.)

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Apart from the water issue is still makes more sense to face the bracket downwards as there is less tendancy for it to move .

How so, Tony?

Cantona's Collars

NewHillel wrote: »

(To be clear, I am not recommending that anyone drill a chimney. If done incorrectly, or on an unsuitable structure, it could cause serious structural damage.)

This post contradicts what you just said. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78039761&postcount=181

There are no vested interests here,just experienced installers/riggers who are trying to do the right thing but are being undercut and having their profession tainted by chancers who see the saorview digital switchover as a cash cow.
When ASO is complete and the rush dies down,these guys will move onto the next thing they can make a quick buck at and leave an unholy mess behind as aerials fall off walls & chimneys,generic boxes lose channels and people realise they have been sold a pig in a poke.But of course the guy with a flyer in a shop won't be around to fix it and the "12 month guarantee" that was offered lasted the length it took him to drive out the gate.

Cesium Clock

NewHillel wrote: »

I am not an Architect or Civil Engineer so I'm not in a position to specify what constitutes 'best practice', in attaching fitments to structures.

exactly my point

Cantona's Collars

cast_iron wrote: »

How so, Tony?

The weight of the aerial can cause the bar holding it to slip down,I think Scaller posted a pic of this having happened to a dish install,the dish was left hanging upside down.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

How so, Tony?

Gravity and leverage

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Gravity and leverage

Ah, I see where you are coming from now.
I'd agree on the principle, but can't see it making much of a difference on a correctly installed (besides) sky dish bracket.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Ah, I see where you are coming from now.
I'd agree on the principle, but can't see it making much of a difference on a correctly installed (besides) sky dish bracket.

Over time it definitely does make a difference from my experience and its no big deal to fit the bracket facing down so why not do it that way

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

Over time it definitely does make a difference from my experience and its no big deal to fit the bracket facing down so why not do it that way

I've seen it too, but by then, it's usually time for a new bracket anyway. Point taken though.
Also, the quality of brackets these days isn't what it used to be, which would reinforce your argument.
I had one of the original dishes on my own house (over 10 years ago I think), and the bracket lasted longer than a second one I put up about 5 years later. I only replaced the older one a few months ago as the bracket finally gave up the ghost (the dish still perfect!).

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Also, the quality of brackets these days isn't what it used to be, which would reinforce your argument.

Yes I agree the amount of metal used is definitely less but like everything these days made to a price I guess.

NewHillel

cast_iron wrote: »

However, I'd say it's fair game to point out bad practice (which is what people are doing here).

The difficulty, in the absence of regulation, is agreeing what constitutes 'bad' and indeed 'good' practice. Some of the criticisms levied against the installation being discussed, include:

1. Use of 'Sky' Bracket.
It is entirely irrelevant as to what the intended purpose of the bracket was. No evidence was provided that it is unfit for purpose for supporting a (small) aerial.

2. "the sky bracket is upside down, water will settle at the bend, rust then failure. water will run thru the bracket and stain the chimney on exit."
This is not true, due to the design of the bracket.

3. " Its also more stable when mounted facing down."
A stability improvement, if any, is marginal. I would argue that, for a bracket mounted on a chimney, the priority is to keep the bracket as far as possible towards the bottom of the chimney. This is facilitated by the orientation of the bracket, as installed.

4. "it would have made more sense to mount that in the attic less than 2 feet below it."
No evidence, to support that position, has been provided.

The main concern, in my view, is the mounting of the bracket on the chimney.
There is a broad consensus that this is a legitimate cause for concern. The issues then are:

1. Is this always bad practice.

2. If not, is it bad practice in the instance referred to.

3. In the circumstances where it is bad practice is it reasonable to assume that a reasonably competent installer should be aware of this.

My opinion is:

1. In the absence of regulatory guidelines, this cannot be stated with certainty. However, in the absence of such guidelines there is a onus on the installer to ensure that individual installations are safe. (There are very few chimneys that I would drill, under any circumstances.)

It is even muddier than this.
[URL="[url]http://books.google.ie/books?id=FBCfvmolEfkC&pg=PA130&dq=satellite+dish+chimney+fixings&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JW6ET_i4CcOHhQfxs-muCA&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=satellite dish chimney fixings&f=false[/url]"]This reference[/URL], purely as an example, refers to direct mounts on a chimney-breast.

Let me quote from 'Satworld.ie' - a company frequently recommended by the OP:

"USES of Sky dish / Aerial wall bracket
Normally used on a gable wall or chimney to mount:
Single UHF Grid or UHF contract Aerials
a broadband aerial
Satellite dises up to 60cm
Perfect for Sky / Freesat Dishes

ADVANTAGES Sky dish / Aerial wall bracket
Small compact bracket ideal mounting a UHF aerial or satellite dish
Lowest cost way of mounting a bracket
Wall is reversible - can be used to maximise height or reach
Easier and quicker to mount than a  Chimney bracket
Versatile can be mounted on a chimney or gable wall
Comes as a complete kit with excepiton of Coach bolts"

2. It is impossible to know whether the installation referred to is inherently bad practice.
We do not know the materials that the chimney is constructed with, the mountings used, or how these were selected and sited.


3. The OP [URL="[url]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76797539&postcount=6[/url]"]previously recommended[/URL] [URL="[url]http://satworld.ie/product-info.php?350mm_Heavy_Duty_Steel_Wall_Mount-pid260.html[/url]"]this product[/URL]
As an experienced rigger, he raised no concern about this description:

"Normally used on a wall or chimney to mount:
Satellite Dishes Aerials or antennas"

Was there not a need to tackle the issue of a supplier propagating incorrect information, if indeed this is actually the case, rather than looking at an individual installer? Given that a very experienced aerial rigger saw no reason to raise a concern, is it reasonable to expect a less experienced, though potentially still competent, installer, to be concerned?

Digitaltv

I found this from a UK aerial company :
Wall or Chimney Bracket ?

The crucial difference between a wall bracket and a chimney bracket is that the former is screwed to the wall whereas the latter is lashed to it, in fact they are sometimes referred to as lashing brackets. It is vital that this difference is appreciated because the main reason that anything bolted to a wall has any strength is the bulk of the brickwork above (and around) those to which it is actually screwed. Unless a chimney is of large proportions it is unlikely that there will be sufficient bulk/weight in it for a screwed fixing to be adequate. The answer is to use a lashing wire to tightly hold the bracket onto the corner of the chimney. For the same reason mentioned above, there should be a few courses of brick left above the installation. J-bolts are used to provide the required tension.