This type of Installer will destroy the Aerial business

St Senan

I priced this 2 storey house for chimney install and supply a Saorview Approved receiver along with a Wideband or Grid Aerial, a lashing kit and 6-8ft pole and cradle. The customer contacted me a few days later to say that she had got a lot better price from another guy €100 cheaper (whom she wouldn't name)
She made out I was trying to rip her off.
I drove past the house today and saw this.

Image1230.jpg

KeRbDoG

Just wow...I would expect that you will get a call from her when a storm passes and her fascia is hanging off with the antenna attached to it :rolleyes:

godskitchen

KeRbDoG wrote: »

Just wow...I would expect that you will get a call from her when a storm passes and her fascia is hanging off with the antenna attached to it :rolleyes:

If you do get a call from her, charge her double.

You should call around and tell her the work is done incorrectly. If she has kids play on that too, tell her it could fall down and hit a child on the head. Which of course it could.

Tell her to get the guy back and do it correctly, at the very least he gets a call he doesnt want and with a bit of luck he will be out of pocket.

BuzzG

:eek:
Just cause it's cheap doesn't mean it's any good ! Ah well it could well turn out being a VERY expensive job after the next Winter/Spring storm.

Tony

Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

byte

LOL, is that one of those bracket assemblies for mounting an aerial in an attic? Looks like it. If that lasts a year, I'll be damn surprised! Of course, it won't.

If the aerial used wasn't bad enough, is it facing into the roof tiles?

I dread to think what sort of receiver was used indoors...

liamtech

byte wrote: »

LOL, is that one of those bracket assemblies for mounting an aerial in an attic? Looks like it. If that lasts a year, I'll be damn surprised! Of course, it won't.

If the aerial used wasn't bad enough, is it facing into the roof tiles?

I dread to think what sort of receiver was used indoors...

it does look like a loft installation bracket - and considering it is (as far as i can tell) pointing at the roof tiles, probably would have been better with a loft installation. Madness - how far are they from the transmitter i wonder

NewHillel

I would have though that installations of that quality could only be good for the professional installer. The ones I wooul be more worried about, if I were an Installer, is the ones that were both well done and cheap. Just a thought...

Tony

I disagree, that kind of work tarnishes everybody in the industry . Depends on what you consider cheap, its a very subjective term and cheap and well done are rarely good bedfellows . Reasonable price and good quality are the way to go in my view.

Sometimes I get asked if I can do a job any cheaper and my reply is always "Yes it can be done cheaper if we compromise on the quality of the materials used but thats false economy as it may well cost more in the long run if problems occur and as we rely on word of mouth its really not the way to go for us "

NewHillel wrote: »

I would have though that installations of that quality could only be good for the professional installer. The ones I wooul be more worried about, if I were an Installer, is the ones that were both well done and cheap. Just a thought...

watty

You can be sure decent installers would starve if they were cheaper.

NewHillel

Tony wrote: »

I disagree, that kind of work tarnishes everybody in the industry . Depends on what you consider cheap, its a very subjective term and cheap and well done are rarely good bedfellows . Reasonable price and good quality are the way to go in my view.

Sometimes I get asked if I can do a job any cheaper and my reply is always "Yes it can be done cheaper if we compromise on the quality of the materials used but thats false economy as it may well cost more in the long run if problems occur and as we rely on word of mouth its really not the way to go for us "

In this context, by cheap I mean work that would be unprofitable for a professional, fully ensured, tax compliant Installer.

It's pretty obvious that the work highlighted is second rate and it's pretty certain that it will not last long. I can't imagine the perpetrator getting too many personal recommendations, either.

NewHillel

watty wrote: »

You can be sure decent installers would starve if they were cheaper.

See my post above, I agree with you.

Onthe3rdDay

I know times are tough for everyone and it can be hard to see second rate work go up but sometimes it's better not to get such customers.

It doesn't matter what business you're in you'll always get some people who want to pay little or nothing and they're usually the most trouble.

(They are also the ones that have plenty of cash to spare!)

Peter Rhea

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

It doesn't matter what business you're in you'll always get some people who want to pay little or nothing . . . (They are also the ones that have plenty of cash to spare!)

It's like those 'cowboy builders' type programmes that always make me laugh when it's obvious the 'victim' knew right from the start they were taking a chance but just couldn't resist the plainly dodgy much lower price.

channelsurfer2

wow... shocking..I bet he or she charged a 100euro for that and the person though paying someone 180 for a good job was expensive. wait until she has to replace half her gutter when the aerial brings it down in the wind...

Tony

Ah yes I see your point now .

NewHillel wrote: »

In this context, by cheap I mean work that would be unprofitable for a professional, fully ensured, tax compliant Installer.

St Senan

I cant see how these so called Installers/Engineers are coming up with Prices of €150- €180 for new install of a Saorview box and a PROPER Aerial Setup.

A Saorview approved receiver plus a chimney Lashing kit/Cradle a 6-8ft pole and a Wide band or Grouped Aerial. Mary Curtis from Saorview/RTE said at the Saorview seminars last year. A standard installation of a new aerial should cost approximately €140 – €160. http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/how-much-does-switching-to-saorview-cost/ This is an indicative price, prices will vary depending on your home and the total amount of work required. You should contact a competent local installer for a quote. And that price is with out a Saorview approved receiver which are averaging around €80.
Now we all know what the word indicative means before some guys start jumping up and down. The majority of Aerial Rigging is done at chimneys of 2 storey houses. In some cases Aerials can be mounted in lofts or attics with a proper mount ( line of sight to Transmitter).

€150 = Aerial and lashing kit installed at chimney
€ 80 = A walker Saorview Approved set top box
+____
€230

Out of that €230 a competent installer will have out goings and expenses.
So this should tell people that if a so called Installer/Engineer can supply and install for €130. What quality of equipment is he going to install or is paying out on expense's Pl insurance or Tax.

I do really feel that this whole Saorview Approval Process is a Complete cock up especially with the approval of the Saorview Retailers.

And now less than 9 months till ASO Its the day to day legit installer/Sole trader who has been short changed because of a Word (SAORVIEW). We have 3 bodies recognised by RTE to register and check that Installers are competent in Installing aerials and that they pay taxes and carry the proper PL insurance and have the right equipment and still these Installers registered to these bodies are not more widely viewable on the Saorview.ie website like the Retailers. That is 1 Big Reason why a lot more Legit installers/sole-traders have not joined any of these Bodies (RECOGNITION) not just a link upon link until he/they are found. The ordinary public need to see who they can Trust or they have to get to install a proper set-up not a cheap imitation installed by a 1st namer who advertises on Done-Deal or Mr A4), And then you have the Authorised Saorview Agents,Chancers/Cowboys, Double Jobbers, Contract Sales companies, Self called Saorview Approved Installers with Van Logos, Handyman Dan's and FETAC Leval 5 Training Courses who are all out there totally making a mock of the Aerial industry abusing SAORVIEW and making quick cash on the back of something new. They are ruining the business and nothing seems to be been done or will be done to stop them. Just look at Done-deal for example
http://www.donedeal.ie/find/tv/for-sale/Ireland/saorview I wonder does any body from RTE/Saorview look at it maybe Saorview Brian can answer this.

Sponge Bob

It'll do 2 or 3 autumn storms and then post another pic so we can have a laugh.

Bruthal

Unfortunately most people would not have a clue what a good installation involves. For the customer who had that aerial installed, if it worked, then as far as they are concerned, its done right. Even though in this case, for anyone with experience looking at it, it would barely even qualify as a cowboy job.

St Senan

Words taken from a Donedeal ADD. We are authorised installers of SAORVIEW And this so called Authorised Installer proudly displays this picture of a authorised Aerial install for saorview. :eek::eek:

Lets have a game of finding the Faults with this picture.

Tony

robbie7730 wrote: »

it would barely even qualify as a cowboy job.

Ouch, all the job's I do are cowboy jobs

liamtech

scaller wrote: »

Words taken from a Donedeal ADD. We are authorised installers of SAORVIEW And this so called Authorised Installer proudly displays this picture of a authorised Aerial install for saorview. :eek::eek:

Lets have a game of finding the Faults with this picture.

Isnt that a sky dish mount? and as such shouldn't it be pointing down in order not to fill with rain?

Also it looks like its not full bolted on the wall? seems at least one bold is missing

could be wrong im not an expert installer like many on here!:o

watty

1) It's an attic quality aerial.

2) Is there open ground across from the house or is it facing a building? If so the aerial needs to be on the chimney or gable to clear the peak of any facing building by 1.2m to 1.5m, or sometimes more.

3) maybe he only put two screws?

Peter Rhea

One half of the reflector is the wrong way round (probably makes no difference), also possible that the whole aerial is upside down.

Bruthal

Peter Rhea wrote: »

One half of the reflector is the wrong way round (probably makes no difference), also possible that the whole aerial is upside down.

Looks like it on both counts alright.

Bruthal

Tony wrote: »

robbie7730 wrote: »

it would barely even qualify as a cowboy job.

Ouch, all the job's I do are cowboy jobs

At least yours will qualify as cowboy ones:D

PressTheButton

watty wrote: »

1) It's an attic quality aerial.

2) Is there open ground across from the house or is it facing a building? If so the aerial needs to be on the chimney or gable to clear the peak of any facing building by 1.2m to 1.5m, or sometimes more.

3) maybe he only put two screws?

Re. 'open ground across from the house': Look closely at bottom left hand corner of photo - tall tree reflected in window directly in line of sight of antenna. IMHO the antenna needs to be mounted on highest part of roof.

Another consideration: If the photographed antenna is mounted to front wall of house a contravention of S.I. No. 600/2001 - Planning & Development Regulations 2001 might have occurred.

No such (wireless or television) antenna shall be erected on, or forward of, the front wall of the house.

Peter Rhea

It might be pointed under the widest/densest part of the tree; maybe the installer knows more than be think (doubt it, will be interesting when the leaves come back on the tree).

Cantona's Collars

The Sky dish bracket is missing bolts,I can see only one flimsy looking U-bolt holding the aerial onto it,not much good on a windy day.
That aerial would be grand in an attic,not out in the elements.


We knew this day would come and lo & behold the chancers are coming out of the woodwork,they even have people believing that Saorview is an alternative to Sky/UPC. Those people are in for some shock when they realise that the service comprises of 6 tv channels that they can watch.Even the combi boxes they are touting aren't certified and are just fta boxes that can pick up saorview also.

St Senan

Peter Rhea wrote: »

One half of the reflector is the wrong way round (probably makes no difference), also possible that the whole aerial is upside down.

It sure is.

How any guy can be proud of this Eyesore and take a picture of it is beyond me.
That type of aerial is made by Commtel or SLX its nothing but a glorified
coat hanger. Its ok for an attic install in strong signal areas with direct line of sight. But apart from it been upside down along with the Sky dish wall bracket all the plastic parts on aerial will perish away in a short space of time.

St Senan

zerks wrote: »

Even the combi boxes they are touting aren't certified and are just fta boxes that can pick up saorview also.

Its hard when genuine installers are supplying and installing Saorview approved and FREESAT HD receivers and are competing against these guys who are flouting Combi boxes on an install as the REAL DEAL to customers. Wait till some TP's or the next Frequency change and Mr's Murphys kids are shouting at her that they have no Tiny pop, Kix or Pop girl. Mrs Murphy will realise then that what she bought is not the finished Article.

Dont get me wrong I have no problem supplying and installing a combi box but I do explain to people that they have a choice between Certified/Approved receivers and a combi that needs reprogramming everytime a TP or frequency changes.
The only time I insist on a combi is when a customer asks for Irish English and European channels.

PressTheButton

Peter Rhea wrote: »

It might be pointed under the widest/densest part of the tree; maybe the installer knows more than be think (doubt it, will be interesting when the leaves come back on the tree).

Yes, tree in photo appears to be a deciduous tree. The addition of leaves (particularly when wet) will add to gradual signal loss/attenuation. However the wood part of the tree will be the greater contributor to attenuation. Don't forget the branches will grow too! :rolleyes:

Cantona's Collars

Remember this guy? Gates and Installs.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/59999/124910.jpg

St Senan

Another Qualifed Professional installer advertising in done deal.

Have a new Ferguson Ariva 120 hd combo (saorview and free to air) on the one box installed for a once off payment of €190

After paying for the Combi MPEG4 and Generic Free To Air box , Aerial, lashing Kit and Cradle sorry zone 2 wall bracket. and a Sky 60cm dish. I wonder how much they earn on labour after they deduct tax and Pl insurance money.



all work carried out by our professional installers

Probably got a cert from C........on training in fetac Level 5 pre cable installation or some other non related cert.


Send an email to SCAN TV.

Maybe they meant SCAM TV

St Senan

Here is what another Qualified Saorview installer on Done deal is saying

I am an approved Saorview Installer with City and Gills Certification which is the only one recognised by Saorview

So dont be fooled get an approved installer

Take out your sky box and fit this for all these free channels

DVBT CHANNELS = 7

ENTERTAINMENT CHANNELS =27

FULL HD CHANNELS =6

MOVIES = 15

KIDS = 10

MUSIC = 16

NEWS = 16

LIFESTYLE AN CULTURE =12

SHOPPING =28

RELIGION =12

SPORTS = 2 + LOADS MORE


Saorview/RTE should be contacting the likes of Donedeal to tell them to remove these Adds.

aerial man

Horrible job. it is very hard to compete with the likes of these jobs, however ive found a lot of people lately are trying to support local businesses, like myself, i always try keep my business local if i can.

Give it a year or two, when this set up blows over, that customer will have learnt their lesson and will hopefully employ a reputable installer, which in the long run will be a costly lesson.

God help her when she rings up a dodgy number, to complain about her rubbish receiver packing in, to be greeted by a message to say that this number is out of reach....

By the way, in fairness to the installer, that aerial is actually a triax aerial... i think a dg8 or something?
however its only an 8 element with rubbish gain, also he has the dipole upside down which will have an affect on the gain.

Ive a feeling we'll see more of this type of 'handy work' before the ASO

aerial man

scaller wrote: »

Here is what another Qualified Saorview installer on Done deal is saying

I am an approved Saorview Installer with City and Gills Certification which is the only one recognised by Saorview

Just to emphasis your point of how professional he really is, something is a little fishy about the way he spelt ''City and Guilds'' !!

St Senan

aerial man wrote: »

Just to emphasis your point of how professional he really is, something is a little fishy about the way he spelt ''City and Guilds'' !!

I remeber the Fishy connection alright, That "Saorview Approved Installer" was mentioned here before http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76755115&postcount=306

lawhec

scaller wrote: »

Words taken from a Donedeal ADD. We are authorised installers of SAORVIEW And this so called Authorised Installer proudly displays this picture of a authorised Aerial install for saorview. :eek::eek:

Lets have a game of finding the Faults with this picture.

Not sure if the aerial is upside down (probably is) but I see the F-connection between the aerial's dipole and downlead hasn't been weatherproofed and is completely open to the elements. A quick invitation for water into the coax if there was one. Also the downlead itself has a good as not been secured relying on feeding down the back of the bracket and one thin cable tie to the drainpipe ffs! Easy to flap in the wind, makes the sheath of the coax vulnerable to cracking allowing moisture to seep in, wind vibrations may loosen the already exposed F-connector and the thin cable tie to the guttering is asking for trouble. Whatever about the shoddiness of the rest of the work, securing the coax to the Sky dish bracket needed either only a couple of good quality cable ties (i.e. thicker that the one used to secure it to the drainpipe with good UV resistance) or some insulation tape, along with some cable clips is only a matter of a few pennies. :rolleyes:

A candidate worthy to send to Bill Wright for his rogues gallery.

St Senan

It's getting better Worse.
There is a guy on Adverts who seems to be a fully qualified installer. I wonder where he served his apprenticeship??? or better still has he got PL insurance or does he pay tax.


Grade A Satellite installer
Fetac Qualified and City&Guilds Qualified
Trained by CAI Instructor
Special rates for OAPs

Saorview systems supplied&fitted from 180 EURO

I wonder is he using Saorview approved equipment at that price and paying expenses from his price.

Freesat systems supplied&fitted from 170 euro

He cant be earning much on labour if he is supplying branded Freesat receivers and paying expenses from his price

Special offer get saorview and freesat on one box all equipment supplied&fitted for 295 euro

Has he not been informed that no such box exist.

veyron

hey looks like another part time installer, i see it all the time im based between tipp and limerick and the amount of so called saorview engineers that have surfaced is ridiculous, lads going around saying there saorview registered and under cutting is crazy, you cant really feel sorry for the customers as they are willing to take the chance on a chancer even do its starting to get great publicy not to use these characters with such outlets like the ISAA which im all for, it was even on tv, i wonder will that customer be able to get that guy back to fix something for nothing that was his fault in the first place? i dnt think so it will be left to us the decent people and dare we ask for a fair amount to fix it!

Marcusm

scaller wrote: »

I priced this 2 storey house for chimney install and supply a Saorview Approved receiver along with a Wideband or Grid Aerial, a lashing kit and 6-8ft pole and cradle. The customer contacted me a few days later to say that she had got a lot better price from another guy €100 cheaper (whom she wouldn't name)
She made out I was trying to rip her off.
I drove past the house today and saw this.

Image1230.jpg

Scaller

Is that at Hazelwood in Gorey by any chance?

St Senan

Marcusm wrote: »

Scaller

Is that at Hazelwood in Gorey by any chance?

No sorry its not Hazlewood but there are some strange Aerial set-ups in that estate. This Aerial is in the Gorey area but not in town.

bmaxi

veyron wrote: »

hey looks like another part time installer, i see it all the time im based between tipp and limerick and the amount of so called saorview engineers that have surfaced is ridiculous, lads going around saying there saorview registered and under cutting is crazy, you cant really feel sorry for the customers as they are willing to take the chance on a chancer even do its starting to get great publicy not to use these characters with such outlets like the ISAA which im all for, it was even on tv, i wonder will that customer be able to get that guy back to fix something for nothing that was his fault in the first place? i dnt think so it will be left to us the decent people and dare we ask for a fair amount to fix it!

Hardly fair comment. The general public is unlikely to be able to distinguish between a genuine installer and a cowboy or to know the cost of aerial installation or TV/Sat equipment, it is, after all, probably a once in a lifetime requirement. As to the quality of an installation, if an old lady asks someone to install an aerial and at the end of the day the TV works, do you really expect her to know whether or not the installation is competent? I know, and Scaller knows too, that recently if I'd seen a van in the area purporting to be an aerial rigger, I would have given him a job and asked no questions as to his qualifications, because the local installers wouldn't do the job. Fresh in the memory too is the Celtic tiger when tradesmen couldn't be had for a king's ransom so the public are likely thinking competition is bringing prices back to, what should be, normal values.
I have every sympathy for anyone who has served an apprenticeship and finds himself undercut by another who has no more technical skill than climbing a ladder and fitting a plug but really it's up to the industry to have the area regulated.

St Senan

This is what the general public is up against.

I was at a House Yesterday afternoon near Kiltealy in Wexford where a Retired gentleman has a televes receiver on Thursday it stopped working for some reason he phoned a Guy who advertises on the Radio, This guy sent out two young lads on Friday, They walked in to the sitting room picked up the remote control for the televes no signal was on the screen. They told this man that his box is ****ed and he will need to pay €120 for a new 1. This man had a Phillex/Skyline receiver his son gave him, It needed to be retuned he said this to one of these lads, The lads reply was yes it will cost €80 to do that. The man said he will have to think about the TV and will get back to them . Now the problem with the televes receiver was the man's grandchild had the remote last on Thursday and had accidentally the LNB power switched off. If these so called Installers/Engineers chaps knew their job the would have checked this instead of saying the televes was ****ed and looking to flog this man another Generic FTA receiver for €120.

It is really up to RTE/Saorview and the 3 recognised bodies to get the word out to the public that if you want a job done and done properly from an Installer that is legit and trustworthy then you need to contact a competent recognised installer. The Damage is been done and these cowboys are USING Saorview and the ASO to CON people into spending money on Inferior equipment and receivers that are not the Real long term product that the customer needs.

FRIENDO

scaller wrote: »

It is really up to RTE/Saorview and the 3 recognised bodies to get the word out to the public that if you want a job done and done properly from an Installer that is legit and trustworthy then you need to contact a competent recognised installer. The Damage is been done and these cowboys are USING Saorview and the ASO to CON people into spending money on Inferior equipment and receivers that are not the Real long term product that the customer needs.

Yes, RTE/Saorview should be promoting the 3 recognised bodies in relation to the public contacting legit/competent installers, I also believe they should fund the recognised bodies in advertising to the public.
The only advert I have seen, has been a bucklet with my tv licence renewal bill, more importance should be put on using installers from the recognised bodies.

St Senan

FRIENDO wrote: »

Yes, RTE/Saorview should be promoting the 3 recognised bodies in relation to the public contacting legit/competent installers, I also believe they should fund the recognised bodies in advertising to the public.
The only advert I have seen, has been a bucklet with my tv licence renewal bill, more importance should be put on using installers from the recognised bodies.

I agree there Friendo but as I said before the ordinary day to day installer/Sole trader is getting a raw deal out of this Switchover. RTE/SAORVIEW were told well in Advance that this would happen and that they need to act fast. What did they do "Nothing" they got 3 bodies to check and register installers and RTE still wouldn't let these installers use the Saorview name or Logo (even though these installers handed over hard earned cash) when every Cowboy, chancer and Market stall holder in the land used the saorview name and logo and flooded the country with Non Approved Equipment. This is 1 of the big reasons why a lot more legit installers have not Joined any of these 3 recognised bodies. Its going to cost them More money to join and they would still be competing against these rouge installers who are abusing the Saorview logo and who are undercutting everyone who is legit.

If RTE/Saorview had of went Public and explained to people through TV adds , Radio adds, and Newspaper adds that if you need or want a new Aerial installed then you need to contact your local Saorview Registered Installer who is Legit and Saorview Recognised by RTE to install the right Equipment.

RTE should have let these registered installers use the logo from day 1 last May in their advertising and on their Vans then more and more people would make the right choice and get installed from a legit installer. It would have eventually filtered through to the public that registered installers are only allowed to advertise and install proper Saorview systems. Then the 3 recognised bodies would have seen a lot lot more installers wanting to join them. Its as simple as that.

Cantona's Collars

It's getting to the stage that we may get Dominic Littlewood over to coordinate sting operations on these guys.

It's not just the 'man with a van' guys that are doing harm.People are going to established businesses thinking that because they're going to a shop they are getting the best service available but in reality they are dealing with uncertified retailers who use installers that would make blind monkeys look good.

I've personal experience of this so the above paragraph wasn't just something pulled out of thin air.

The reputable guys who are trying to do the right thing have every reason to be aggrieved at what is happening in the whole satellite/aerial installs industry.
RTE made big noises about regulation etc but don't seem to have the big stick to enforce their rules when it comes to saorview.Any Tom,Dick or Harry can get a bunch of leaflets or brochures from them,then look legit and go stick up aerials with no comeback for the customer who hands over the cash.

St Senan

zerks wrote: »

It's getting to the stage that we may get Dominic Littlewood over to coordinate sting operations on these guys.

People are going to established businesses thinking that because they're going to a shop they are getting the best service available but in reality they are dealing with uncertified retailers who use installers that would make blind monkeys look good.

I've personal experience of this so the above paragraph wasn't just something pulled out of thin air.

The reputable guys who are trying to do the right thing have every reason to be aggrieved at what is happening in the whole satellite/aerial installs industry.
RTE made big noises about regulation etc but don't seem to have the big stick to enforce their rules when it comes to saorview.Any Tom,Dick or Harry can get a bunch of leaflets or brochures from them,then look legit and go stick up aerials with no comeback for the customer who hands over the cash.

I wonder did RTE/Saorview make sure when they Approved Retail shops for selling Saorview related products or the big Retail selling groups are the Installers these shop's use for installing Aerials registered to any of the 3 recognised bodies. This is something that the registerd Bodies should check with Saorview/RTE

blackius

Just to agree with a comment made earlier and that is guy's you just don't need business from the type of people that let installers for want of a better word install something like in that photo.

Anyone with half an ounce of cop on wouldn't agree to an aerial like that hanging out of the facia.
I'd hate to see what other botch cheapo jobs that person has around "their" house,thats if they even own it at all.
They certainly have no respect for it which is not normal..

veyron

Scaller
i myself think its time to report these cowboys the squeeze needs to be put on them, i do know the revenue is now targeting such outlets like donedeal and looking into these guys, i know myself any cowboy i see going forward or anymore jobs i have to go back to clean up there crap im reporting it to saorview, i have a guy advertising locally and he is using saorview logo everywhere and he is an ex [sky engineer} i do think that Saorview have been clever because all these idoits have been flushed out with there advertising and there saorview logos all over there vans , its then up to saorview to deal with these guys and protect there logo which they are keen to do, i think its up to the regulated guys, the relevant trade bodies which only seems to be the ISAA who are actually doing anything to kake on the fight and make it difficult for these guys to operate, and yes i am amember of the ISAA before anyone asks i think it is a fantastic idea