This type of Installer will destroy the Aerial business

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

Peter you have summed it up in your last post and the majority of these half trained Installers are following behind sales reps going Door to Door they are all working on Commission for a Installation company and the equipment is supplied from a big big supplier.

That may well be true. However, you have linked to one such company advertising on donedeal on another thread here recently, inferring that what they were doing was in some way wrong (I can't find it now). I've yet to be shown what they are doing wrong.

Genuine installers are been told that they cant Advertise Saorview (which is Destroying many an installers livelihood) that they need to join 1 of the 3 recognised bodies (which will cost x amount of money) and they still are competing against Chancers, Cowboys, and big contract Installation companies who are milking people of money because of the ASO.

Has an agreement not been reached recently where they could use the Saorview logo in limited circumstances?

Cantona's Collars

RTE set out strict guidelines on the selling of Saorview but now it seems anyone can go knock a few doors,claim to be from RTE and sell stuff that isn't even certified.
The amount of small ads that have popped up selling saorview and looking to recruit reps is unreal.99% of the boxes aren't even fully compatible let alone certified and this is what they are peddling to the public.

I can't blame the genuine,experienced installers from trying to protect their interests.
We are getting a couple of posters here who feel they are fair game and any Joe Soap is entitled to drag the industry down through bandwaggoning and shoddy practices.
Sure while we're at it lets have a free for all,I can carve a roast-would that entitle me to perform surgery or I can wire a socket,maybe I'll pretend to be an electrician and go wiring houses at knockdown prices.

lawhec

scruffy66 wrote: »

There is nothing on this tread that says that this guy put this aerial is on the front wall of a house [ only supposition]

I dont use sky brackets or sky dishes [they rot after a few years]

I only use decent compression f connectors [they aren't sold by the main suppliers who post on this site].

Some house's dont have chimneys and might have attic conversions.

Some house's might be old and have biscuit tiles ,which break very easy.

Some suppliers who post on this site have being selling sky brackets as aerial brackets and some till recently haven't being selling aerials at all.

There is no doubt that there are major faults with the install [using the sky bracket etc] , there is nothing wrong with putting an aerial on a back wall
of a house , providing you can get adequate signal quality.

Sometimes people just dont want an aerial on there roof or their attic is converted, are you going to refuse the job even if the signal quality is perfect at the back wall of the house.

Just like some people dont like using more than one remote control and dont want to use a saorview box and a freesat box with 2 remotes and the TV one of course.

Lots of "What ifs?" there. A properly installed TV, FM or DAB aerial needs to be mounted as reasonably high as practical. The BBC, RTÉNL and Arqiva use a receiving aerial at 10m agl to determine coverage. It is simply good practice to do the job properly where it can be done. I know in Omagh and the local district almost all UHF TV aerials are mounted well above the roof line with the rest still mounted above the gutter line if they are not attic installed - I've not come across one mounted on a wall below the roof line locally that I can remember. There may be a very select few cases where wall mounting a TV aerial is the only practical option and if that's the case, the aerial should be discrete as possible - I've already mentioned grids where the signal hits the wall face on, otherwise a "contract" 10 element aerial is the most that should be needed to keep a low profile; if signal strength isn't strong enough, then that aerial will have to be raised higher up with either a cranked pole (not often seen here locally) or a T & K bracket. Satellite dishes are a different matter.

Look. I don't have a particular problem with aerials mounted on walls and gable ends especially if they are kept neat and not obtrusive (I see FM single dipole aerials often done this way when roof mounting is not an option, especially as a vertical pole isn't likely to gather much attention) but the photo in the case of the person pimping their work is an absolute abortion. I'd be embarrassed to use that to promote my work, a bit like if I was making cakes and I promoted my business using a photo of someone throwing up eating my produce.

cast_iron

zerks wrote: »

RTE set out strict guidelines on the selling of Saorview but now it seems anyone can go knock a few doors,claim to be from RTE and sell stuff that isn't even certified.
The amount of small ads that have popped up selling saorview and looking to recruit reps is unreal.99% of the boxes aren't even fully compatible let alone certified and this is what they are peddling to the public.

What strict guidelines are you on about?
All they say is that on one can represent themselves as RTE/Saorview employees, because RTE/Saorview don't retail anything.

I can't blame the genuine,experienced installers from trying to protect their interests.

Nor do I, it's easy for me to say, as I've no commercial interest in any of this. However, spouting incorrect facts and misinformation won't help anyone.

We are getting a couple of posters here who feel they are fair game and any Joe Soap is entitled to drag the industry down through bandwaggoning and shoddy practices.

I hope that's not aimed at me. I don't think it's okay at all, and I'm not sure where I said it was? However, anyone is perfectly entitled to go out and install Saorview, whether anyone here likes it or not.

Sure while we're at it lets have a free for all,I can carve a roast-would that entitle me to perform surgery or I can wire a socket,maybe I'll pretend to be an electrician and go wiring houses at knockdown prices.

Like installing aerials, carving a roast is not a regulated industry. However, the other examples are, therefore the comparison is not valid.

Tony

ted1 wrote: »

Why not report Scallers company or Tony's company, or Tesco or RTE or anyone more. how are they more likely to be tax compliant?

I'm more likely to be tax compliant as I've been in business for 18 years, I think I would have been caught by now . The revenue argument is valid as the prices these guys are charging means its unlikely in the extreme that they are making a living and paying taxes, the numbers just don't add up.

PressTheButton

scruffy66 wrote: »

There is nothing on this thread that says that this guy put this aerial is on the front wall of a house [ only supposition]...

The words 'If' and 'might' have already made that clear.

Another consideration: If the photographed antenna is mounted to front wall of house a contravention of S.I. No. 600/2001 - Planning & Development Regulations 2001 might have occurred.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76887754&postcount=27

BTW scruffy66 where do you stand on having an official body registering aerial & TV system installers where installers would have to become qualified, be fully insured, have a clear criminal record disclosure & be certified to safely work at heights?

Personally would prefer such a registered/qualified/insured/trustworthy/competent installer fitting aerial or TV system in my parents' home.

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

However, anyone is perfectly entitled to go out and install Saorview, whether anyone here likes it or not.

install 'Saorview' ? its a protected brand name for the use of RTE and registered retailers, and not to be used by installers, wether anyone here likes it or not.

St Senan

Cesium Clock wrote: »

install 'Saorview' ? its a protected brand name for the use of RTE and registered retailers, and not to be used by installers, whether anyone here likes it or not.

+1

cast_iron

Cesium Clock wrote: »

install 'Saorview' ? its a protected brand name for the use of RTE and registered retailers, and not to be used by installers, wether anyone here likes it or not.

I find this very hard to believe. I've asked for evidence a few times and none is forthcoming.

I think you are confusing "saorview" and the "saorview logo"?
They make it perfectly clear the logo is copyright and this I accept fully.

Saying an installer can't use the word "saorview" is ridiculous. If a customer asks the installer "will this aerial get me saorview?", according to you, all the installer can say is "i'm not allowed say".
And I'm not sure why scaller is thanking the post, as the post says you can't use the word "saorview" at all. Not great for business, I'd say.

scruffy66

PressTheButton wrote: »

The words 'If' and 'might' have already made that clear.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76887754&postcount=27

BTW scruffy66 where do you stand on having an official body registering aerial & TV system installers where installers would have to become qualified, be fully insured, have a clear criminal record disclosure & be certified to safely work at heights?

Personally would prefer such a registered/qualified/insured/trustworthy/competent installer fitting aerial or TV system in my parents' home.

Am a member of ISAA, Gerry and steve doing a great job to clean up this industry.

Have full PL Insurance , VAT Registered and TAX Compliant , tough on Crime, Trustworthy and competent installer who guarantee's his work and who always calls back to customers if there is a problem,after all without
word of mouth you won't last long in business.

Tell your parents to give us a ring.

The DTT signal from Three Rock is booming out, in and round Dublin i can see no problem putting an Aerial on a south facing back wall using a galvanised wall bracket and appropriate aerial.

Not suggesting you PressTheButton but some of the posts ive read remind
me of the Comic Book store owner from the SIMSONS.:D

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

I find this very hard to believe. I've asked for evidence a few times and none is forthcoming.

I think you are confusing "saorview" and the "saorview logo"?
They make it perfectly clear the logo is copyright and this I accept fully.

Saying an installer can't use the word "saorview" is ridiculous. If a customer asks the installer "will this aerial get me saorview?", according to you, all the installer can say is "i'm not allowed say".
And I'm not sure why scaller is thanking the post, as the post says you can't use the word "saorview" at all. Not great for business, I'd say.

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can, its a brand name for the content, delivery and reception etc, of Irish DTT, therefore you cannot install 'Saorview'.

In your post earlier you should of used the word aerial or such not 'Saorview',

With statements like that no wonder 'Done Deal' is crawling with 'Saorview installers'.

liamtech

Two pence worth from a novice/enthusiast!

I think the problem in general is that door to door/done deal sellers and installers are not being clear about what it is there selling.

Example - there are many adverts for the Ariva 120 Combi that describe it as a Freesat/Saorview Combo Box - Now that's plainly not true but to those users who are not up on this technology, it is VERY confusing:

I would immediately say as i have in previous posts that I absolutely love the Ariva 120 Combi despite the fact that i dont own one- its easy to use, quick to set up, and cheap enough as to be an affordable alternative to Sky or UPC..

Obviously it has draw backs... No auto tuning of satellite stations, no red button access, not a true twin tuner, and no MHEG5 -

The problem is that people dont actually realize what that means! and these guys selling Ariva's as Freesat/Saorview Combo Boxes are obviously to blame-

I am an enthusiast, in that i believe that a FTA alternative to SKY or UPC has a Serious chance of making in roads in the irish market, but these rogue sellers are going to muddy the water - as soon as a MAJOR frequency change occurs this forum is going to be full of threads asking questions about missing stations -

Imagine what will happen when BBC re-organizes its stations or moves some of them to astra 1n... a lot of unsuspecting users are going to freak out and SKY will have a field day!

As to the installation of aerials, well i have always set my own gear up, which means if there's a problem its obviously my fault! But the installations shown here by Scaller and others are obviously going to cause a lot of issues for users. Saorview obviously adamantly recommend certified products, and thats their business - i have no issue with FTA non certified gear - but SAORVIEW really should put more emphasis on getting REPUTABLE INSTALLERS - That is potentially MORE IMPORTANT than the box -

If you deal with a reputable seller/installer then they will

• Explain the difference between Freesat & Saorview and plain FTA boxes and combis
• Install the box AND AERIAL/DISH CORRECTLY
• Provide some support for their customers in the form of what to do when Frequency changes occur - and basic manual tuning procedures

Otherwise users are going to be genuinely confused and annoyed - I have already been asked by a friend of the family a while back if these 'Free TV stations' are like a certain dodgy Digital Cable Box that made the rounds a few years ago - I explained to him the obvious difference in terms of Legality but i could see the confusion

Bruthal

Cesium Clock wrote: »

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can, its a brand name for the content, delivery and reception etc, of Irish DTT, therefore you cannot install 'Saorview'.

In your post earlier you should of used the word aerial or such not 'Saorview',

With statements like that no wonder 'Done Deal' is crawling with 'Saorview installers'.

So i guess if some potential customer calls, and asks for the saorview to be installed, you wont have a clue what they are asking for?

cast_iron

Cesium Clock wrote: »

no I am not, you are saying anyone can install 'Saorview', which no one can,

So which installers can install saorview?

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

So which installers can install saorview?

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

St Senan

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising in terms of the terms being used causing confusion.

Bang on Tony.

Bruthal

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

Interesting looking combo box that ariva 120. I put up an aerial a year ago after cancelling sky, and have a saorview box upstairs. That 120 looks ideal for downstairs before the aso.

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

None, no more than anyone could install BBC or ITV . What you can do is install a system capable of receiving such and I think this is where the problem is arising with regard to the terms being used causing confusion.

But what's the difference? Installers can do the whole job but never call it "Saorview"? Seriously?

My money is that people have confused the copyright of the "Saorview logo" and the service "Saorview".

What in effect is being said here is that ISAA installers that can carry the saorview logo on their vans can never say they can install saorview. I'm sorry but that's frankly ridiculous.

Peter Rhea

Yes, if Saorview are certifying equipment, they should have no objections to installations using this equipment being referred to as 'Saorview installations'. Once the logo is on the box or tv, what do they expect?

Cantona's Collars

1000 posts Peter.:cool:

Peter Rhea

Yeah, doesn't seem like over a year. :pac:

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

But what's the difference? Installers can do the whole job but never call it "Saorview"? Seriously?

No, if they install a Saorview approved box with an aerial they can say its a saorview system. If its a generic DTT receiver or a combo you cannot call it saorview even though it receives exactly the same channels.

cast_iron wrote: »

What in effect is being said here is that ISAA installers that can carry the saorview logo on their vans can never say they can install saorview. I'm sorry but that's frankly ridiculous.

I think your missing the point here and I don't think anyone is saying that. Saorview is a broadcast system , it would be like saying you can install Astra 2 in someones house which is obviously impossible as its a satellite.

Bruthal

Tony wrote: »

I think your missing the point here. Saorview is a broadcast system , it would be like saying you can install Astra 2 in someones house which is obviously impossible as its a satellite.

I dont think anyone is missing that point, it cant be more simple. But the fact is, in every day life, descriptions are often formed around the basis of whats being described.

I never heard anyone with the sky system mention that they had the astra2 installed. Most would say they had sky put in though, and everyone would know exactly what they mean.

This is just arguing over words.

Tony

robbie7730 wrote: »

This is just arguing over words.

I agree it is but the problem in the case of Saorview is that the actual description or choice of words of what it is being installed is crucial as its possible to supply a receiver that although it will receive the channels it is not a Saorview approved receiver. If you have sky put in you get a sky box

Theres no problem in selling a non approved receiver as long as the customer is made aware of this and can make an informed choice.

Cantona's Collars

Here's a company that has no less than 6 ads on Donedeal advertising Combo box installs.No mention of the boxes not being approved but the ad on Donedeal uses "SaorviewHD" in it's wording.

http://www.freetoairireland.com/index.htm

http://www.donedeal.ie/find/all/for-sale/Ireland/saorview

PressTheButton

Apparently Homer believes antenna should be on roof - especially with all those high leafy trees around, d'oh!

scruffy66 wrote: »

... some of the posts ive read remind
me of the Comic Book store owner from the SIMSONS.

Comic Book Guy would not be impressed with your sarcasm!

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

No, if they install a Saorview approved box with an aerial they can say its a saorview system. If its a generic DTT receiver or a combo you cannot call it saorview even though it receives exactly the same channels.

Says who?

I tend to agree with you on the point you make, but it's semantics what we call it. The simple fact is as long as the customers are told the difference between approved and non-approved boxes, it really makes no odds what anyone calls it.

Saorview themselves say:
Set-top-boxes will vary in terms of functionality, quality and price. Some set-top-boxes will allow for digital recording, while others will decode satellite signals in addition to the SAORVIEW signal. Be sure to ask your retailer to explain the different options to you.

My point here is that some companies are condemned and criticised with no evidence that they are not explaining the difference between the types of boxes to the customer.

The Saorview rep also today effectively stated that some door to door sales may well be legitimate.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Says who?

The sale of goods act for starters "Goods must be as described etc"

cast_iron wrote: »

I tend to agree with you on the point you make, but it's semantics what we call it. The simple fact is as long as the customers are told the difference between approved and non-approved boxes, it really makes no odds what anyone calls it.

If your on the receiving end of a bad deal then its hardly semantics

Kind of a contradiction there is it not? If its a non approved box then its not Saorview so why call it that ?

FRIENDO

Tony wrote: »

The sale of goods act for starters "Goods must be as described etc"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/print.html#sec10
Section 10. (13)
Sale by description.

"13.—(1) Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied condition that the goods shall correspond with the description; and if the sale be by sample as well as by description, it is not sufficient that the bulk of the goods corresponds with the sample if the goods do not also correspond with the description.

(2) A sale of goods shall not be prevented from being a sale by description by reason only that, being exposed for sale, they are selected by the buyer.

(3) A reference to goods on a label or other descriptive matter accompanying goods exposed for sale may constitute or form part of a description.

Implied undertakings as to quality or fitness."

Thanks Tony, I actually went and had a read, My first time to read that Act.:)

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

The Saorview rep also today effectively stated that some door to door sales may well be legitimate.

Neither SAORVIEW nor RTÉ has commissioned or endorsed any door-to-door sales activities under the SAORVIEW or RTÉ brands. The SAORVIEW logo is not permitted for use by any direct sales companies. Any approach from door-to-door sellers purporting to be acting for SAORVIEW is categorically not endorsed by SAORVIEW.
We are aware of a small number of people misrepresenting themselves as employees of RTÉ or SAORVIEW. Some of these people may be wearing clothing with the RTÉ or SAORVIEW logos, these people are not employees or agents of RTÉ or SAORVIEW. Appropriate action is being taken against anyone misusing either brand to further their sales activities.
There may be genuine door-to-door sales people in your area offering legitimate services associated with digital switchover. As with any stranger appearing on your doorstep, please exercise caution when dealing with any person offering to install a set-top-box or suggesting you need a new aerial installation*.

as above from saorview website

no 'saorview' selling, but services associated with the digital switchover.

they are taking action against anyone misusing the brands 'RTE' and 'Saorview' to further their sales activity.