That just doesn't make sense!

IvySlayer

Kirby wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Ofcourse an engineer needs a rank. Somebody needs to be in charge of the engine room and delegate the vital work that needs to be done. An important cog in the machine. When the captain orders warp 9, the engine room follows his orders.....or people die!

Counselling is a service. No orders need to be issued and everybody can avail of it regardless of rank. It's a colloborative process and there is absolutely no need for rank to come into it. In the same way that Guinan didn't have or need a rank. Or the cook on Archer's enterprise. These are services that are not military in nature and don't need a command structure.

She qualified from Starfleet Academy with a degree in psychology. Just like a Security officer, a Medical officer, an Engineer, Command officer she has a rank and duties.

Kirby

IvySlayer wrote: »

She qualified from Starfleet Academy with a degree in psychology. .

She did those things because thats what the show demanded. In reality, a counsellor has no need to be able to pilot a ship, command a vessel, or fix a replicator. On a ship like that with families and random citizens, a professional counsellor not a part of Starfleet would likely have been made available.

IvySlayer

Kirby wrote: »

You'll find he can. In the same way a random admiral regularly showed up and ordered Picard about. That's how rank based systems work.

No...a captain who's not assigned to the ship has zero authority. Just like Janeway told her Admiral counter part she had no authority. Also remember when Commander Riker was ordering a Lieutenant on a space station to lower their shields? He was denied, cos he had no authority. A Lieutenant in Insurrection ordered Data to stand down despite he outranked her. It was because she was in command, not Data.

And referring to the Admirals. Admirals tend to have control over sectors of space therefore ships are under their command, but let's go through some Admirals.

Everytime Admiral Nechayev came onboard was because Starfleet assigned her. The Enterprise was a group of ships under her command so she relieved Picard, just like Picard could relieve any member of his staff. Captain Sisko couldn't hail the Enterprise and then tell Geordi he was relieved. It's not his authority.

Admiral Pressman came on board after Starfleet gave him command of a mission and assigned the Enterprise to him.

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Admiral Pressman came on board after Starfleet gave him command of a mission and assigned the Enterprise to him.

Wrong. "You'll command the Enterprise while I command the overall mission" were his exact words.

I'm with Kirby on this, a Captain outranks any other subordinate rank no matter where such a Captain goes. They seem heavily reluctant to exercise such authority though, so not to step on the toes of the existing Captain.

In an emergency situation, command falls to the highest ranked officer. Look at the Battle of AR551 for a prime example. To think if a Captain is killed, & the first officer took over...another Captain couldn't take command until told to do so is madness.

The chain of command exists at all times. Command may fall to a subordinate at times, but its only until someone of higher rank comes along

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

Wrong. "You'll command the Enterprise while I command the overall mission" were his exact words.

I'm with Kirby on this, a Captain outranks any other subordinate rank no matter where such a Captain goes. They seem heavily reluctant to exercise such authority though, so not to step on the toes of the existing Captain.

In an emergency situation, command falls to the highest ranked officer. Look at the Battle of AR551 for a prime example. To think if a Captain is killed, & the first officer took over...another Captain couldn't take command until told to do so is madness.

The chain of command exists at all times. Command may fall to a subordinate at times, but its only until someone of higher rank comes along

Not ENTIRELY true.

In any ship there will be an officer who has the conn, essentially stating that he is in charge.
IF an emergency situation arose while he has the conn he is in command of the ship, whether or not the captain or any other senior officer is on the bridge.
Manic Moran, a serving officer in the US Army has alluded to this in the past

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75953443&postcount=24

Myrddin

gatecrash wrote: »

Not ENTIRELY true.

In any ship there will be an officer who has the conn, essentially stating that he is in charge.
IF an emergency situation arose while he has the conn he is in command of the ship, whether or not the captain or any other senior officer is on the bridge.
Manic Moran, a serving officer in the US Army has alluded to this in the past

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75953443&postcount=24

From his post:

I will agree with this. From the military perspective when a unit is in contact it is very bad form for an arriving senior to take practical ownership of the situation.

When the colonel goes to sleep, if he is called back, he does not kick the Battle Captain out of his seat. The BC always has the benefit of full knowledge, and wouldn't be in the seat in the first place if he wasn't deemed capable of controlling the battalion fight.

That suggests it would be an unprofessional thing to do, to take command in the middle of a contact [real time battle]. I'd guess what happens is, the officer left in charge is allowed to remain in charge until such time that the superior officer can be briefed & safely assume command.

In The Siege Of AR551, Sisko arrived at the outpost, while there was no contact going on. He was safely briefed by whoever was previously in command, & then assumed command.

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

From his post:



That suggests it would be an unprofessional thing to do, to take command in the middle of a contact [real time battle]. I'd guess what happens is, the officer left in charge is allowed to remain in charge until such time that the superior officer can be briefed & safely assume command.

In The Siege Of AR551, Sisko arrived at the outpost, while there was no contact going on. He was safely briefed by whoever was previously in command, & then assumed command.

i agree with you... i had just highlighted the wrong bit!!

maybe i was being a bit nit picky but i meant to highlight the bit about command sometimes falling to a subordinate at times but only until a senior officer comes along...

That Senior Officer shouldn't come along and take command immediately, he/she should wait to be briefed in.

norrie rugger

Kirby wrote: »

There is no real logical reason for a shrink to have any rank at all. It's a service to the ship like a chef or a bartender.

Are you seriously comparing a mental health professional to a chef/bartender???

A service?? Yeah, in the same way that Crusher provided a "service".

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing a mental health professional to a chef/bartender???

A service?? Yeah, in the same way that Crusher provided a "service".

This is in no way reflective of the validity of the role at all. We're talking from a military chain of command perspective.

helimachoptor

EnterNow wrote: »

Wrong. "You'll command the Enterprise while I command the overall mission" were his exact words.

I'm with Kirby on this, a Captain outranks any other subordinate rank no matter where such a Captain goes. They seem heavily reluctant to exercise such authority though, so not to step on the toes of the existing Captain.

In an emergency situation, command falls to the highest ranked officer. Look at the Battle of AR551 for a prime example. To think if a Captain is killed, & the first officer took over...another Captain couldn't take command until told to do so is madness.

The chain of command exists at all times. Command may fall to a subordinate at times, but its only until someone of higher rank comes along

I agree with this, if Cmdr/ LT Cmdr is in charge it's probably not very professional to have a captain or a rank one above to come in and take over. But i'm sure if there's a valid reason it will happen.

Generally as explained by Manics post, the subordinate office has knowledge of the situation which makes taking operational control away from him pretty stupid

IvySlayer

EnterNow wrote: »

Wrong. "You'll command the Enterprise while I command the overall mission" were his exact words.

I'm with Kirby on this, a Captain outranks any other subordinate rank no matter where such a Captain goes. They seem heavily reluctant to exercise such authority though, so not to step on the toes of the existing Captain.

Admiral Blackwell assigned the Enterprise to Pressman....She pulled the Enterprise off their current assignment and ordered the to another one. Pressman didn't just beam on and say 'I'm commanding a mission, go here!'

I wrote this above

Just like Janeway told her Admiral counter part she had no authority. Also remember when Commander Riker was ordering a Lieutenant on a space station to lower their shields? He was denied, cos he had no authority. A Lieutenant in Insurrection ordered Data to stand down despite he outranked her. It was because she was in command, not Data.

Another case was when Lieutenant Junior La Forge was in charge of the Bridge despite Lieutenant Commander Troi and the Chief Engineer (Lieutenant) trying to order him to step down. Rank doesn't mean everything.

Lieutenant Commander La Forge basically told CAPTAIN Scott to **** off out of his engineering too. ENSIGN Nog went onto the Valiant but was ordered about by cadets...

Beefy78

IvySlayer wrote: »

ENSIGN Nog went onto the Valiant but was ordered about by cadets...

Cadets with Field Commissions, to be fair.

helimachoptor

IvySlayer wrote: »

Just like Janeway told her Admiral counter part she had no authority. Also remember when Commander Riker was ordering a Lieutenant on a space station to lower their shields? He was denied, cos he had no authority. A Lieutenant in Insurrection ordered Data to stand down despite he outranked her. It was because she was in command, not Data.

Another case was when Lieutenant Junior La Forge was in charge of the Bridge despite Lieutenant Commander Troi and the Chief Engineer (Lieutenant) trying to order him to step down. Rank doesn't mean everything.

Lieutenant Commander La Forge basically told CAPTAIN Scott to **** off out of his engineering too. ENSIGN Nog went onto the Valiant but was ordered about by cadets...

In the VOY it was someone from the future.. chances are in real time if an Admiral lands on your ship you'll know they are a real admiral!

For Geordi he had been left in charge rather than assuming charge due to his superiors dying and taking it by default.
I think this is they key point across of all of these posts.

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Admiral Blackwell assigned the Enterprise to Pressman....She pulled the Enterprise off their current assignment and ordered the to another one. Pressman didn't just beam on and say 'I'm commanding a mission, go here!'

I wrote this above

Oh I'm well aware of that, sure I watched the episode very recently, hence I was able to quote Pressman. Nevertheless, Picard remained in control of the ship, & Pressman commanded the mission. Those were his words, not mine

Just like Janeway told her Admiral counter part she had no authority.

Thats only because Janeway had violated the temporal prime directive & altered time. She violated her oath to Starfleet, thats why she had no further authority - not because it was Janeways ship!

Also remember when Commander Riker was ordering a Lieutenant on a space station to lower their shields? He was denied, cos he had no authority. A Lieutenant in Insurrection ordered Data to stand down despite he outranked her. It was because she was in command, not Data.

Is this all from Insurrection? Can you give me some context as to what was happening here exactly as I don't recall it. I also don't feel like subjecting myself to the film for the sake of a discussion here

Another case was when Lieutenant Junior La Forge was in charge of the Bridge despite Lieutenant Commander Troi and the Chief Engineer (Lieutenant) trying to order him to step down. Rank doesn't mean everything.

Neither of which were in a command position. The chief engineer can't just assume command because he outranks someone on the bridge. Sure if thats the case, Crusher could have came to the bridge then to relieve the Chief Engineer. Geordi at the time was left in command by the captain, an engineer can't overrule that, but someone from command could. This is why I raised the whole point about why Troi was ranked so high, up until Season 7...her rank was effectively useless in a military sense.

Lieutenant Commander La Forge basically told CAPTAIN Scott to **** off out of his engineering too.

I seem to remember him shunning Captain Picard out of engineering too, when the warp engines were down & Picard was invited to the annual admiral ball something or other. A good Captian knows his place, & will gladly let the Chief Engineer work away.

Regards Captain Scot, again, he was out of his time. And quite possibly listed as retired, seeing as he was heading for a colony to retire in the first place.

ENSIGN Nog went onto the Valiant but was ordered about by cadets...

All given field commissions.

You really have to look at each scenario seperately. In each case, the superior command officer always outranks whomever he relieves

norrie rugger

Definitely for Troi it is a case that not all people, in the military, are soldiers.
There are dozens of professions in there, each with its own ranking structure; from non-comms/NCO to officer ranks.
That and being the go to person for first contact and negotiations.

For everyone else, if the Captain gives a command then only he (or a higher rank) can withdraw it.
If Picard leaves Geordi in charge then Riker can not overrule that. Of course Geordi will relinquish command, to Riker, but I don't think that Riker can force the point.

Just like Sisko could order starships about, while a commander on DS9. He had admiral authorised command of the station. A captain can not overrule that authority, on his own.
Remember that Wesley Crusher had command of a team of higher ranked individuals, because he was placed there by THEIR superior.

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Remember that Wesley Crusher had command of a team of higher ranked individuals, because he was placed there by THEIR superior.

Much the same as when Picard remained in command of the Enterprise, while there was an Admiral aboard such as Pressman.

It's very rare, if ever, a planetary survey would ever have to rely on the chain of command anyway, such as with Wesley. Bridge & Starship operations though, is where you need it mostly.

Kirby

Look at what we are discussing. Just look at it.....


Star trek is awesome.

IvySlayer

Maybe it's a relief the meet-up never happened, debates like these plus alcohol can turn violent :pac:

Myrddin

Voyager, Season 2 - Dreadnought

Voyager was unable to battle with the missile because all weapons were ineffective against it due to "the Cardassians programmed it with every known weapon frequency".

I'm sorry, but if this were the case, why would they not do the same to their ships making them practically unbeatable?

Also, when Torres beams over for the second time to disable/destroy the missile, why didn't they just beam a photon torpedo on board like they did later on in the season with a Borg vessel?

Goldstein

EnterNow wrote: »

why didn't they just beam a photon torpedo on board like they did later on in the season with a Borg vessel?

Careful now, we don't want to go pulling at that thread

Myrddin

Goldstein wrote: »

Careful now, we don't want to go pulling at that thread

It just was blatantly obvious, when Torres thought she had disabled the missile & she then returned to Voyager. Next minute the missile takes off at warp speed, hails Voyager & basically tells her it was lying to her.

She's then able to beam back on board it somehow!! The obvious thing was to either bring explosives with her, or beam a torpedo on board

Kirby

EnterNow wrote: »

It just was blatantly obvious, when Torres thought she had disabled the missile & she then returned to Voyager. Next minute the missile takes off at warp speed, hails Voyager & basically tells her it was lying to her.

She's then able to beam back on board it somehow!! The obvious thing was to either bring explosives with her, or beam a torpedo on board

But then we wouldn't have the character moment in the final act!

Besides, I'm sure they could retcon your theory. I'm pretty sure only she could beam over because she programmed the computer. And any bomb or weapon would likely be rejected by the dreadnought. Mind you, didn't she kill it with a phaser? Kind of puts the kibosh on that theory.

Myrddin

Kirby wrote: »

Besides, I'm sure they could retcon your theory.

I'm old and don't know what that means.

I'm pretty sure only she could beam over because she programmed the computer. And any bomb or weapon would likely be rejected by the dreadnought. Mind you, didn't she kill it with a phaser? Kind of puts the kibosh on that theory.

The first time she beams over, it is an authorised transport. The second time, its unauthorised, and she still got on board without any hassle. And yep, she had a phaser with her

Myrddin

Here's one I never noticed before, Season 3 of Voyager...the episode 'Macrocosm'...the crew/doctor suddenly remember all of a sudden the Doc has an 'autonomous projection unit', identical really to the future tech one he gets later on.

All of a sudden the Doc is on the bridge & on an away mission :eek: At no point was it mentioned this device existed on the ship, then its suddenly there & available to use...after several big deal episodes about the Doc being unable to ever leave sickbay or the holodeck.

There was also an episode where the Doc suggests projecting false ships into space to divert a Kazon attack, & Torres says to him "Doctor, we can't even figure out how to project you into this room...let alone ships into space"....a few eps later & the Doc is on the bridge!

downwithpeace

I sort of remember the episode and it takes place after the Doc gets his Mobile Emitter, that's what's allowing him to be projected anywhere.

Future's End one and two.

Myrddin

downwithpeace wrote: »

I sort of remember the episode and it takes place after the Doc gets his Mobile Emitter, that's what's allowing him to be projected anywhere.

Future's End one and two.

Aahhh....I did skip Future's End...hadn't thought of that! Really don't care much for that episode

SarahBM

In Nemisis, (if memory serves) Picard is talking to Admiral Janeway. She has the hair style she had back in Season 1 and 2 rather than her shorter bob that she has when they return to Earth in S7. Never got that.
And poor Harry Kim, had to stay an ensign for 7 years. surely being a senior bridge officer, they could have promoted him to Lt.

and how come the former Maquis crew members have different pips?

And after the survivors of the equinox crew join the ship they are never heard of again.

GreenWolfe

SarahBM wrote: »

In Nemisis, (if memory serves) Picard is talking to Admiral Janeway. She has the hair style she had back in Season 1 and 2 rather than her shorter bob that she has when they return to Earth in S7. Never got that.
And poor Harry Kim, had to stay an ensign for 7 years. surely being a senior bridge officer, they could have promoted him to Lt.

and how come the former Maquis crew members have different pips?

And after the survivors of the equinox crew join the ship they are never heard of again.

Maybe Janeway went through so many hairstyles that she had no choice but to reuse older ones? :P

For Harry Kim, considering the situation they were in there may not have been an open command position that he could have been promoted to.

The Maquis crew members were provisional officers, most of them hadn't graduated from the Academy (and they were regarded by Starfleet as Maquis members) so they couldn't have been given full ranks.

After being party to the crimes their former Equinox shipmates committed, it would make sense for them to work hard and keep their heads down.

somuj

Become a God or a lapdog.

Myrddin

The Omega Directive....

Why is it only Captains are made aware of it, & not the first officer. Presumably if the Captain is incapacitated & the XO takes over, Starfleet would need a backup in that case!

For example, when Janeway & Chakotay have to be left on the planet because of a disease, & Tuvok is put in command...he isn't briefed on Omega. If the crew hadn't of gotten the cure for that disease, & left Janeway & Chakotay on the planet for good...Tuvok wouldn't have been able to carry out the Omega directive later on when the ship detects its presence.