That just doesn't make sense!

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I assumed that was to do with him being head of transporter ops at that stage?
Chief if transporter operations as such?

The way I seen it, was that addressing his as Chief was referring to his rank...& not his position. Much the same way as that Geordi was never addressed as Chief, despite being Chief Engineer...

He was a Chief Petty Officer, & a non comissioned officer, I think they really just didn't put much thought into his rank insignia in tbhose days.

Kiith

I liked the fact that he was a non-com. It made him more normal then most of the other characters, which is what i guess they wanted.

Either way, he's a legend

norrie rugger

Kiith wrote: »

I liked the fact that he was a non-com. It made him more normal then most of the other characters, which is what i guess they wanted.

Either way, he's a legend

Always seemed to get beaten up though

helimachoptor

norrie rugger wrote: »

Always seemed to get beaten up though

Thats because he became an engineer

A good line in the Empok Nor ep

Myrddin

Bloody Cardies

helimachoptor

EnterNow wrote: »

Bloody Cardies

Some of O'Briens lines were genius at times, starting to think it's time for a full DS9 rewatch tbh!

Cookie_Monster

"bollocks!"

one of the best bits of trek

Myrddin

I've just finished a full DS9 run through. Thoroughly enjoyed it from start to finish. I probably skipped about 8-10 eps out of the whole lot...its really really good.

Myrddin

Julian & Myles in a runabout. Myles is giving out that Keiko was complaining about Myles' little worklab he had set up in the bedroom while she was on Bajor.

Myles: "Do you know what she said? She said I'm expressing a sub-conscious desire to push her out of our quarters!"

Julian: "Well thats ridiculous. If anything, your expressing a desire to actually be closer to Keiko. By moving your tools into the bedroom, a place where you intimately associate with Keiko, your actually expressing a desire to be closer to her. Quite touching actually".

Myles: "Exactly! Exactly! See you understand! Why can't Keiko be more like..."

Julian: "More like..."

Myles: "Wh...a man. Why can't Keiko be more like a man?!"

Julian: "So...you wish Keiko...was a man."

Myles: "You wanna know what I wish? I wish I was on this trip with someone else thats what I wish!!"

epic stuff

Myrddin

Why & how, would Troi have a rank of Lieutenant Commander {then a full Commander after the BO test}? Surely a ships Councillor would have no need to rank that highly?

Needing to relieve people of duty for psychological reasons would surely fall to a Medical doctor, & in any case, a professional opinion could outweigh rank there.

I know she was a valuable resource on the Bridge at times, but I think a full grade Lieutenant should be where her rank maxes out, anything after it seems pointless. Also, would her progression to Lt. Cmdr been through purely theory based, as opposed to standing out ahead of the posse etc?

syklops

EnterNow wrote: »

Why & how, would Troi have a rank of Lieutenant Commander {then a full Commander after the BO test}? Surely a ships Councillor would have no need to rank that highly?

Needing to relieve people of duty for psychological reasons would surely fall to a Medical doctor, & in any case, a professional opinion could outweigh rank there.

I know she was a valuable resource on the Bridge at times, but I think a full grade Lieutenant should be where her rank maxes out, anything after it seems pointless. Also, would her progression to Lt. Cmdr been through purely theory based, as opposed to standing out ahead of the posse etc?

Well apparently money doesnt matter in the Star Trek universe. Troi doesnt get a salary. So how else do you award loyalty, choosing to get up every morning and sit on the Bridge of the biggest target sign this side of the gamma quadrant? Maybe she is the highest ranking councillor in Star Fleet. Stands to reason Picard would want the best by his side for the flagship. Telling her, you can only be a Lt Comm, if you give up counselling and do a few years in a command position is civil service thinking.

Myrddin

syklops wrote: »

Well apparently money doesnt matter in the Star Trek universe. Troi doesnt get a salary. So how else do you award loyalty, choosing to get up every morning and sit on the Bridge of the biggest target sign this side of the gamma quadrant? Maybe she is the highest ranking councillor in Star Fleet. Stands to reason Picard would want the best by his side for the flagship.

It's nothing personal against Troi, I'm just using her as an example. Why, in a military sense, would a Councillor need to rank so highly? Maybe there's a valid reason for it, I dunno.

It's not a Command area, outranking people is completely irrelevant to her role. Also, why would the rank on her neck reward her & give her incentive to get up in the morning? Doing the job itself would be reward enough.

Telling her, you can only be a Lt Comm, if you give up counselling and do a few years in a command position is civil service thinking.

So no matter what you do in Starfleet, the goal is to become a Captain/Admiral? I don't think so.

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

Why & how, would Troi have a rank of Lieutenant Commander {then a full Commander after the BO test}? Surely a ships Councillor would have no need to rank that highly?

Needing to relieve people of duty for psychological reasons would surely fall to a Medical doctor, & in any case, a professional opinion could outweigh rank there.

I know she was a valuable resource on the Bridge at times, but I think a full grade Lieutenant should be where her rank maxes out, anything after it seems pointless. Also, would her progression to Lt. Cmdr been through purely theory based, as opposed to standing out ahead of the posse etc?

Why would psychological reasons fall to the MD, especially if they were not chemical imbalance related?

in terms of the ranking, why not have her at a certain rank? why make an engineer a Lt. Com? When in uniform Troi wore the blue of sciences/medical and would have to come up the ranks like anyone else. She was cheif councillor. There would be more than one on board, especially as she also served as a first contact liasion.

Actually, considering the secondary role that she played during negotiations and first contact, anything lower that Lt would seem crazy. She also wanted command rank authority.

Lucky for the stardrive section that she did!

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

It's not a Command area, outranking people is completely irrelevant to her role. Also, why would the rank on her neck reward her & give her incentive to get up in the morning? Doing the job itself would be reward enough.

The other Sciences and Security are not command areas either but you would need to differentiate someone at the top of their field vs new enteries.

in terms of getting out of bed? Intrinsic motivation and goals to aim for?

syklops

EnterNow wrote: »

It's not a Command area, outranking people is completely irrelevant to her role. Also, why would the rank on her neck reward her & give her incentive to get up in the morning? Doing the job itself would be reward enough.

Considering her role in various disputes and negotiations, I can see it being a bone of contention for the counsellor to hold a rank below a certain level. Some royalties may choose to speak only to the captain or senior officers. So I can understand why it might be beneficial for her to hold a high rank.

What is the highest rank you think she should have?

In the US, the Surgeon General holds the rank of Vice Admiral. So she has some way to go yet.

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Why would psychological reasons fall to the MD, especially if they were not chemical imbalance related?

Again its irrelevant. A doctor despite being outranked by a Captain, has the authority to relieve a Captain under medical grounds. The same authority could be given to a Councillor if needs be.

in terms of the ranking, why not have her at a certain rank? why make an engineer a Lt. Com? When in uniform Troi wore the blue of sciences/medical and would have to come up the ranks like anyone else. She was cheif councillor. There would be more than one on board, especially as she also served as a first contact liasion.

A Chief Engineer, is responsible for an entire department & all the staff that are assigned to it. Command decisions need to be made, things need to be prioritized, & the Chief of such a department is responsible for the entire running of it. Clearly, a chain of command is needed. The running of the ship demands it.

Chief Councillor? Never heard her referred to as that tbh. I know there are other Councillors assigned to the ship, but no chain of command is needed between them. They each have their own patients & rosters etc, but what role would a chain of command have?

Actually, considering the secondary role that she played during negotiations and first contact, anything lower that Lt would seem crazy. She also wanted command rank authority.

Again, she definitely had diplomatic value, but what relevance does rank hold here? In fact, in the episode 'Disaster', her being so highly ranked actually caused a bit of a disaster of a situation. You had experienced officers reporting to someone who hadn't the first clue about ship operations?!

Luckily in that case, yes, she was right about the secondary hull etc...but in reality a situation like that could & would never be allowed to happen. She only wanted Command authority after those events, as she was clearly embarrassed by her lack of operational knowledge. She did well though, & again did very well in her BO tests.

I've nothing against the character, just the logic behind such a highly ranked Councillor baffles me.

norrie rugger wrote: »

The other Sciences and Security are not command areas either but you would need to differentiate someone at the top of their field vs new enteries.

Sorry but the likes of security still needs a chain of command. The sciences too, though to a lesser extent. Counseling though, if anything I'd expect its an off-shoot of Medical, and as such Dr. Crusher should & would be Troi's department head.

in terms of getting out of bed? Intrinsic motivation and goals to aim for?

I think if Roddenberrys message is to be believed, people have the freedom to do anything they want. That in itself should be reward enough. I'd expect Troi to be completely content in the same role, regardless of her rank {prior to Disaster}

Myrddin

syklops wrote: »

Considering her role in various disputes and negotiations, I can see it being a bone of contention for the counsellor to hold a rank below a certain level. Some royalties may choose to speak only to the captain or senior officers. So I can understand why it might be beneficial for her to hold a high rank.

Maybe thats the very reason? I honestly don't know. I suppose its as good a reason as any.

What is the highest rank you think she should have?

Hard to say, I'd have seen the role maybe being ranked as a Lieutenant. I don't think Counseling calls for anything more. Sounds harsh, but to ask the opposite question...why have a Councillor ranked so highly? The above may answer it though.

In the US, the Surgeon General holds the rank of Vice Admiral. So she has some way to go yet.

But that's the equivalent of the Chief of Starfleet Medical isn't it? She has a way to go yet in that case

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

Chief Councillor? Never heard her referred to as that tbh. I know there are other Councillors assigned to the ship, but no chain of command is needed between them. They each have their own patients & rosters etc, but what role would a chain of command have?

Ezri Dax was a ship's Junior Councillor. Just like you would have several doctors on a ship you would have several councillors, someone has to be in charge. Just like Crusher was CMO.

I am probably being clouded, by the books, in relation to there being a more fleshed out crew and a councillor dept.

No way should the CMO be the automatic boss of the phych dept. just as Troi would not know anything about medical issues, I doubt that Crusher would know too much about mental health.

Certain roles automatically carry certain ranks also. Lawyers in the American forces carry relatively high ranks, as do those in the medical medical fields. It shows the level of training that they have achieved, outside of the regular military training.

syklops

EnterNow wrote: »

Hard to say, I'd have seen the role maybe being ranked as a Lieutenant. I don't think Counseling calls for anything more. Sounds harsh, but to ask the opposite question...why have a Councillor ranked so highly? The above may answer it though.

We don't know her qualifications, but I would imagine the counsellor who over seas the mental health of a crew of 200+ in a spaceship that travels to the edge of the known universe to be rather well qualified, holding degrees in both psycology and crypto-psycology. I don't think she got her qualifications from a 6 month course in "Passing the Tissues".

Here in the 21st century, we are still sceptical about issues of mental health, but maybe in the 25th they are a bit more enlightened on such matters. It seems plausible that she should have a rank close to Beverly Crusher, who was a commander.

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Ezri Dax was a ship's Junior Councillor. Just like you would have several doctors on a ship you would have several councillors, someone has to be in charge. Just like Crusher was CMO.

Ezri Dax was a Junior Lieutenant, not a Junior Councillor. On DS9 she was also the only one. I'm aware the Enterprise had a few of them, but again, I don't recognise the need for a chain of command amongst therm.

The CMO & Medical department again is somewhat different. There are lives at risk, prioritization in place & split second decision making. There is a clear need for a coc, & a cmo.

I am probably being clouded, by the books, in relation to there being a more fleshed out crew and a councillor dept.

Thats possible. I've not read much, if any, TNG non canon stuff.

No way should the CMO be the automatic boss of the phych dept. just as Troi would not know anything about medical issues, I doubt that Crusher would know too much about mental health.

The CMO should be the medical authority on any ship. Counseling, is something that would fall under medical jurisdiction aboard a military ship or installation. No of course Crusher wouldn't be as up on psychology as Troi, but do you think Picard knows as much as Geordi about engineering?

Certain roles automatically carry certain ranks also. Lawyers in the American forces carry relatively high ranks, as do those in the medical medical fields. It shows the level of training that they have achieved, outside of the regular military training.

That may simply be it too, as I said initially, I don't understand the logic behind it...but my mind is open to the learning of it

Myrddin

syklops wrote: »

Here in the 21st century, we are still sceptical about issues of mental health, but maybe in the 25th they are a bit more enlightened on such matters. It seems plausible that she should have a rank close to Beverly Crusher, who was a commander.

Did I somehow convey I don't believe in the validity of psychotherapy or counseling? I'm not that closed minded. A simple question is what I asked, & yourself & norrie have given two very plausible answers. Consider what I asked, answered.

syklops

EnterNow wrote: »

Did I somehow convey I don't believe in the validity of psychotherapy or counseling? I'm not that closed minded. A simple question is what I asked, & yourself & norrie have given two very plausible answers.

When you said you didnt think a counsellor needed to be anything more than a Leiutenant, made me suspect you didnt hold much value in their / her services.

Consider what I asked, answered.

Good. Now that we have that nailed down, are we all happy about time travel?

Myrddin

syklops wrote: »

When you said you didnt think a counsellor needed to be anything more than a Leiutenant, made me suspect you didnt hold much value in their / her services.

Quite the opposite in fact. But my question pertained to purely the need for a Councillor to outrank crew members...not the validity of their work by any stretch I'm satisfied now with both the answer by both yourself & norrie

Good. Now that we have that nailed down, are we all happy about time travel?

The two different results of time travel is why I created this thread We're told you can affect the past, thus changing the future. And we're also told if you affect the past, a new future is created, leaving the original in tact. So which is it??!!



*unsubs thread to escape impending nerd time-travel warfare discussion

norrie rugger

Ezri was an assistant (where i got junior from) ship councillor, prior to the joining with Dax, and an ensign.
She was promoted to Lt. jr grade, in recognition of Dax's experience.

Anyhoo, time travel in Trek seems to make my head hurt

Cookie_Monster

I'm sure her achievements as a diplomat as well as councillor helped her progression through the ranks

IvySlayer

Troi's rank meant nothing unless she took the Bridge Officers Test, apart from one episode (Disaster).

It's not clear what she has done before she did before the Enterprise-D. I don't see why her role should affect her ability to get promotions. She's still a starfleet officer.

On authority, she had the power to relieve crewmembers of duty if she felt they were incapable because of a mental condition. She was a member of the senior staff.

Probably should've been part of the medical department though. In Science there are loads of divisions but one senior officer, Chief Science Officer. TNG didn't bother with one.

Kirby

There is no real logical reason for a shrink to have any rank at all. It's a service to the ship like a chef or a bartender.

Available to all and therefore rank is not necessary and would in actual fact be counter productive. You would end up with a superior spilling his guts and then having to command said person.....while they know intimate details about them. It's messy.

The actual reason it happened was because the enterprise D bridge had no strong women on it. Picard, Riker, Data, Worf, Wesley, Geordie occasionally. All men. And a woman in a low cut dress sitting beside them all who's only job was to gush about people's emotions.

I think the writers realised this could be construed as the wrong message and sought to empower her a little. Hence, promotion and proper rank and a uniform instead of a dress.

They tried something similar with Ensign Ro but went a little too far and she ended up being a bit combative and abrasive.

IvySlayer

By your logic no reason for an engineer to have a rank either. Greasemonkeys.

Starfleet is rank-based organisation. Rank doesn't mean everything though. A random captain can't walk onto the Enterprise and start ordering Geordi about. It's not as simple as that.

Kirby

IvySlayer wrote: »

By your logic no reason for an engineer to have a rank either. Greasemonkeys.

Starfleet is rank-based organisation. Rank doesn't mean everything though. A random captain can't walk onto the Enterprise and start ordering Geordi about. It's not as simple as that.

That's not what I said at all. Ofcourse an engineer needs a rank. Somebody needs to be in charge of the engine room and delegate the vital work that needs to be done. An important cog in the machine. When the captain orders warp 9, the engine room follows his orders.....or people die!

Counselling is a service. No orders need to be issued and everybody can avail of it regardless of rank. It's a colloborative process and there is absolutely no need for rank to come into it. In the same way that Guinan didn't have or need a rank. Or the cook on Archer's enterprise. These are services that are not military in nature and don't need a command structure. There is no need to order the chef to prepare some onion soup.

Kirby

IvySlayer wrote: »

A random captain can't walk onto the Enterprise and start ordering Geordi about. It's not as simple as that.

You'll find he can. In the same way a random admiral regularly showed up and ordered Picard about. That's how rank based systems work.