HS Precision

Hibrion

Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!

Cass

Never had or even seen a full H&S rifle.

Few questions though.

1. Are you in the States?
2. Whats it for?
3. Any ideas what you want - design wise?

The first question is probably the most important. If you're outside then prices will be higher bu the time you import, tax, VAT, duty, etc you could be looking at the dollar price in Euro for the rifle.

Hibrion

Was speaking with an RFD yesterday (PM for name if you're interested) who is starting to get them in. I was given three grand as a rough price guide.

I'd be looking at one of their light weight hunting rifles. Perhaps in a 308 with a 20 inch barrel.

From what I gather, they have a great name, but I'd like to know specific feedback before forking this much cash out.

I'm fed up with right handed rifles so i'm considering everything left handed:

Blaser, I'm not a fan of the limited capacity and the removable trigger/ mag on the R8

Savage, a model 111 or 116 wouldn't be a bad choice

Remington cdl, basic, attractive rifle, but not the best shooter out of the box

Winchester model 70, would love one but I don't think they make them anymore

Finally I'm considering a Ruger scout, but I'm afraid it might be a bit of a gimmick

tikka and Sako don't appeal to me all that much, if I found one of the other second hand at a good price I'd make do, but I'm not buying one new.

Cass

For €3,000 i'd be going custom. No question.

You could get a left handed action, barrel of your choice, left handed stock of your choice, glass/pillar bedding, threaded, blueprinted action, rail, and in any caliber you wanted all for about the €3,000 - €3,200 price mark.

So as said if i were considering spending that much money on a rifle i would be looking at the custom route rather than trying to find a rifle that suited. rrespective of make, reputation, etc.

As to the H&S, i would imagine they are a great rifle, but i think you may find it hard to get someone with any experience with the rifle. I would be happy to be wrong, but never even heard of someone talking about these rifles let lone using/owning one.

Just my opinion.

It wasn't me!

Much like Ezri, for the money, no question I'd faff about with a factory rifle. I'd be putting it together from scratch. I'd bet it winds up cheaper too, for that matter! I'd start with a stock you like, personally. Stock fit matters more than most things. You can make a decent barrelled action with most things, but if it doesn't fit, you won't shoot to its potential. After that, it's personal choice really.

Hibrion

The thing is, I'm not really bothered with the hassle of a custom build. I'd prefer to buy something off the shelf, if I can. Damn my wrong eye dominance!

It wasn't me!

Join the club! I know it's a bit of grief, but it'd be worth it. Nice to get stuff off the shelf, and there's enough of a selection out there to leave you in good stead, but once you're not looking for a fairly affordable gun, and talking HS Precision money, no question but I'd go custom.

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

........ but once you're not looking for a fairly affordable gun, and talking HS Precision money, no question but I'd go custom.

Precisely, and the only i reason i mentioned the custom route at all.

I mean if you were lookig for a rifle or rifle and scope for €1,500 to €2,000 mark then by all means buy "off the shelf", but when you get into the €3,000+ mark for rifle ONLY then custom would be my choice.

At the end of the day an off the shelf gun is still a "premade gun". By that i mean its made the same as every other make of its line, and if something doesn't suit or fit you've no option (other than paying to have it altered). With custom you decide from the first to the last screw.

tomcat220t

Hibrion wrote: »

Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!

As for a custom build on a standard remmy action Vs H/S accruacy wise ....it would be close but my money would be on H/S.
I think they give a .5moa guarantee !
I shot one .....H/S rifles shoot .

Hibrion

I think I'm going off the idea of the HS precision now. They seem to be shooters alright, but the price is just too high for factory.

I'm now looking at a Blaser R93 in 7mm-08. Any thoughts on that? Seems a cracking bit of kit. The 3 round blind mag is the only downside I can see.

Cupid__Stunt

Hibrion wrote: »

Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!

HS are a great rifle, have used one in .270 on several occasions and I had my heart set on one.... But then I built a custom and wouldn't swap it. Problem your gonna have with them is a 9-12 month wait getting the rifle. They promise 3 month delivery but it doesn't happen. Give Dominic Byrne a shout, he is also a lefty and is building himself a .270, left hand stiller action with a walther fluted barrel. You would have change out of your 3grand. Have another look at the R8 tho.. seriously good job. I'd have one already but I think they are a bit heavy.. I shoot with a lad that has one tho and it is a very good rifle.

Cass

I had a good browse of the H&S website. The €3,000 figure being used on this thread seems high, but consider this. Thats for the entry model/lowest priced one.

They go as far as $5,600. Allowing for import, duties & VAT thats as close to €5,500 as i'd care to get. For €5,500 i could have two custom rifles built and each a unique design. Or of course one seriously good rifle if the mood took.:D

Thing with H&S is the parts are all the same so bar a slight difference in colour, contour, etc there would be feck all between your "custom H&S", and "Paddy's" from down the road. Thats rather simplified, but you get the idea.

I'm not knocking the H&S rifles. I'm sure they are a truely good rifle. However when you are talking about that much money i'm afraid in my book custom wins everytime.

tomcat220t

Not saying i would pay 3000 for any factory rifle but in the case of H/S your getting a lot of rifle for the money ...even for an entry level .
Break down the parts on a H/S and compare that with a custom build !
Now after a year or so put the 2 up for sale and see what happens .

Hondata92

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/01/hs-precision-offers-factory-made-ppc-and-f-class-comp-rifles/

Havent heard anyone mention it previously but do any of the Irish gunsmiths give an accuracy guarentee with their rifles??

Cass

Not saying i would pay 3000 for any factory rifle but in the case of H/S your getting a lot of rifle for the money

Not enough to warrant €3,000. But again only my opinion. Each to their own.

...even for an entry level .

There is the kicker. "Entry" level or that money. Everything else is more expensive, hell even certain accessories on the "Entry" level one cost more. Meanign you could end up paying over €3,500 for it. Then there is the small matter of scope, rings, mounts, bipod, etc.

Break down the parts on a H/S and compare that with a custom build !
Now after a year or so put the 2 up for sale and see what happens

Are you suggesting that a custom rifle costing the same to build as a H&S would be worth less than a H&S after 2 years?

I think they give a .5moa guarantee

At 100 yards. :rolleyes: Not overly impressive from such a rifle. Sub 0.5 moa would be better, but even 0.5 MOA guarantee at say 300 mtrs would impress me a bit more.

My Savage hunter (fully equipped with scope, etc) does that already, and it cost half the price of the H&S rifle (with nothing added). Could not guarantee the same performance at 600 as i have never shot mine at that nor have i shot a H&S at all, but i assure you there are cheaper factory rifles (let alone custom builds) that shoot those groups all day long.

Cass

Hondata92 wrote: »

Havent heard anyone mention it previously but do any of the Irish gunsmiths give an accuracy guarentee with their rifles??

Couldn't tell ya.

After saying that no Irish gunsmith is of the same size of H&S nor do they do continuous models. IOW they do not have a catalogue of models to choose from as each gun seems to be unique.

Cupid__Stunt

The only prob I see with custom rifles is the resale value.. I have 2 custom builds on tikka actions but they are still only worth what a second hand tikka is worth. The likes of HS or blasers will hold their money far better.

tomcat220t

Custom action +cut rifle barrel +match trigger + top stock + mag fed+ tested for accuracy +accuracy guarantee .How much would that cost in a custom form ?
And there is no doubt in my mind what would sell quicker and hold more value between the two .

Cass

Cupid__Stunt wrote: »

The only prob I see with custom rifles is the resale value..

While always an important factor it should not be the deciding factor when buying a firearm.

I have 2 custom builds on tikka actions but they are still only worth what a second hand tikka is worth.

Just out of interest. A new Tikka would run an average (taking into account all models) of €1,100. Add on custom barrel, bedding, stock, trigger, and you reckon you would still only get €700 for it?

The likes of HS or blasers will hold their money far better.

Possibly. I couldn't answer that having never owned one, and i see very little in Blasers for sale second hand. Oners not willing to part with them i reckon.:)

tomcat220t wrote: »

Custom action +cut rifle barrel +match trigger + top stock + mag fed+ tested for accuracy +accuracy guarantee .How much would that cost in a custom form ?

Roughly about between €2,900 to €3,200. As for the accuracy guarantee that costs nothing in terms of money, but if the rifle is built well then its a guarantee any rifle smith can/could provide after testing the rifle.

And there is no doubt in my mind what would sell quicker and hold more value between the two .

Again i have to take your word on the resale value of the H&S rifle. I have never seen one for sale here so cannot comment, but i assume you have given your certainty on the matter.

Just to be clear i am not knocking H&S. I have said this multiple times. I have never owned one and its a rifle that if i had the cash, and licensing it were not such an issue i probably wouldn't mind having, but my only concern is the price of the rifle when there are imilar or better options at the same or even less money.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Not enough to warrant €3,000. But again only my opinion. Each to their own.

There is the kicker. "Entry" level or that money. Everything else is more expensive, hell even certain accessories on the "Entry" level one cost more. Meanign you could end up paying over €3,500 for it. Then there is the small matter of scope, rings, mounts, bipod, etc.

Are you suggesting that a custom rifle costing the same to build as a H&S would be worth less than a H&S after 2 years?

At 100 yards. :rolleyes: Not overly impressive from such a rifle. Sub 0.5 moa would be better, but even 0.5 MOA guarantee at say 300 mtrs would impress me a bit more.

My Savage hunter (fully equipped with scope, etc) does that already, and it cost half the price of the H&S rifle (with nothing added). Could not guarantee the same performance at 600 as i have never shot mine at that nor have i shot a H&S at all, but i assure you there are cheaper factory rifles (let alone custom builds) that shoot those groups all day long.

The H/S hunting rifle i shot held .35 moa @330 yards off a sand bag ......THEY SHOOT :cool:.That was with hunting ammo :eek:.0.5 moa is the guarantee ...does not mean that it not capable of better !First function of any rifle of interest is it must shoot ,end of !Looks ,once offs.... ect all comes a distance second to a rifle thats shoots ,imo.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

While always an important factor it should not be the deciding factor when buying a firearm.

Just out of interest. A new Tikka would run an average (taking into account all models) of €1,100. Add on custom barrel, bedding, stock, trigger, and you reckon you would still only get €700 for it?

Possibly. I couldn't answer that having never owned one, and i see very little in Blasers for sale second hand. Oners not willing to part with them i reckon.:)

Roughly about between €2,900 to €3,200. As for the accuracy guarantee that costs nothing in terms of money, but if the rifle is built well then its a guarantee any rifle smith can/could provide after testing the rifle.

Again i have to take your word on the resale value of the H&S rifle. I have never seen one for sale here so cannot comment, but i assume you have given your certainty on the matter.

Just to be clear i am not knocking H&S. I have said this multiple times. I have never owned one and its a rifle that if i had the cash, and licensing it were not such an issue i probably wouldn't mind having, but my only concern is the price of the rifle when there are imilar or better options at the same or even less money.

I know your not knocking the H/S but they are mass produced, hand built (all in house top parts )custom rifles .
Haven said that i still like the idea of getting a built rifle over a factory one .
The final product between the two id have to say the H/S would be better finished off and hold its resale value better .Nether or which would mean a lot to me if it shot .

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

The H/S hunting rifle i shot held .35 moa @330 yards off a sand bag ......THEY SHOOT :cool:.That was with hunting ammo :eek:.0.5 moa is the guarantee ...does not mean that it not capable of better .

Thats good shooting by all accounts, but thats you, and not a guarantee from the manufacturer.

Also I never said they couldn't shoot. How could i having never shot one. I am merely responding to the claims on the website.

I'm sure in the right hands the rifle could do alot better, but H&S cannot guarantee better groups because no matter the quality of the rifle its the "nut behind the butt" that counts.

Look at the recent shoot in the midlands. There were lads shooting at 600 yards with less expensive, and by no means custom rifles, and some were shooting some pretty tight groups in the string. One shooter, i believe, had a 4 consecutive shot group of about 2"-2.5". Thats unconfirmed, but my point being even without the big expensive custom rifle the man pulling the trigger is key.

Anyway i'm going slightly off topic. Forget the custom thing for the minute. A Sako 85, decent S&B/Leupold scope, rings, mounts, etc would stand you what.......... €3,500. (?) Thats a fantastic setup for pretty much the same money.

............ id have to say the H/S would be better finished off

This seems to be the "basis" of our different opinions. I look at the H&S and quite frankly i see a Remmy in a H&S stock. I know looks count for nothin if it shoots like crap, but really i would still place some "stock" in the looks of a rifle. I mean we are all that little bit vain about our guns, and the better looking the better. For the show-off factor.

All i'm saying, is all i have been saying. There are other options, but hey if someone wants to go and splash out by all means knock yourself out. I suppose the true measure of their success will be in the sales figures, and performance/comps, etc by their owners.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Thats good shooting by all accounts, but thats you, and not a guarantee from the manufacturer.

Also I never said they couldn't shoot. How could i having never shot one. I am merely responding to the claims on the website.

I'm sure in the right hands the rifle could do alot better, but H&S cannot guarantee better groups because no matter the quality of the rifle its the "nut behind the butt" that counts.

Look at the recent shoot in the midlands. There were lads shooting at 600 yards with less expensive, and by no means custom rifles, and some were shooting some pretty tight groups in the string. One shooter, i believe, had a 4 consecutive shot group of about 2"-2.5". Thats unconfirmed, but my point being even without the big expensive custom rifle the man pulling the trigger is key.

Anyway i'm going slightly off topic. Forget the custom thing for the minute. A Sako 85, decent S&B/Leupold scope, rings, mounts, etc would stand you what.......... €3,500. (?) Thats a fantastic setup for pretty much the same money.

This seems to be the "basis" of our different opinions. I look at the H&S and quite frankly i see a Remmy in a H&S stock. I know looks count for nothin if it shoots like crap, but really i would still place some "stock" in the looks of a rifle. I mean we are all that little bit vain about our guns, and the better looking the better. For the show-off factor.

All i'm saying, is all i have been saying. There are other options, but hey if someone wants to go and splash out by all means knock yourself out. I suppose the true measure of their success will be in the sales figures, and performance/comps, etc by their owners.

Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.
Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !
As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock .
Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.

Way to insult all Sako owners.

Plus i'm not comparing them i am offering another alternative to a €3,000 rifle. Lets face it if its for hunting a fox, deer, etc will not be stnding there waiting for you to group three shots.

Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !

Do explain.

As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock .

What? Putting a "confused" emoticon is not a statement.

Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P

I thought you had a fully custom 6XC? Or am i confusing you with someone else? Also a 7mmWSM. Again fully custom. How much were they? Also they are not the worse looking rifles i've ever seen.

Would you prefer a H&S over them?

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Way to insult all Sako owners.

Plus i'm not comparing them i am offering another alternative to a €3,000 rifle. Lets face it if its for hunting a fox, deer, etc will not be stnding there waiting for you to group three shots.

Do explain.

What? Putting a "confused" emoticon is not a statement.

I thought you had a fully custom 6XC? Or am i confusing you with someone else? Also a 7mmWSM. Again fully custom. How much were they? Also they are not the worse looking rifles i've ever seen.

Would you prefer a H&S over them?

You think that a .5moa accuracy guarantee on every built rifle just happens ?
They would have to be tested ..each and every one = time and money ,simple !

Hondata92

Ezridax wrote: »

Couldn't tell ya.

After saying that no Irish gunsmith is of the same size of H&S nor do they do continuous models. IOW they do not have a catalogue of models to choose from as each gun seems to be unique.

So when you got your rifle rebarreled with a custom barrel you were given no guarantee that it would shoot accurately?? Did you get any guarantee at all besides that once loaded it make a bang and send a round out when you pull the trigger?

Comparing HS Precision to a custom rifle builder is like comparing Mc Donalds to the local chipper but 9/10 times they both guarantee that what ever i order is going to be cooked properly.

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

You think that a .5moa accuracy guarantee on every built rifle just happens ?
They would have to be tested ..each and every one = time and money ,simple !

True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".

Hondata92 wrote: »

So when you got your rifle rebarreled with a custom barrel you were given no guarantee that it would shoot accurately??

I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.

Did you get any guarantee at all besides that once loaded it make a bang and send a round out when you pull the trigger?

See above for answer.

Comparing HS Precision to a custom rifle builder is like comparing Mc Donalds to the local chipper but 9/10 times they both guarantee that what ever i order is going to be cooked properly.

I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

If not you might explain it please.

Hondata92

Ezridax wrote: »

True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".

I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.

See above for answer.

I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

If not you might explain it please.

So what guarantee were you given if you did your part?

Did your rifle builder range test your rifle and give you a target to show how it performs?

My metaphor is basically, i pay for a service i expect to get what i pay for.

If i buy a burger i expect it to be cooked properly, if i buy a cstom rifle then i expect it to shoot to a certain degree of accuracy (beyond the accuracy of a factory rifle)

Cass

Hondata92 wrote: »

So what guarantee were you given if you did your part?

You mean was i given a 0.5MOA guarantee? Or some other figure at some distance?

No. No figure given. I was told she will one hole at 100 yards. Probably not technical enough for some, but good enough for me.

Did your rifle builder range test your rifle and give you a target to show how it performs?

Yes.

My metaphor is basically, i pay for a service i expect to get what i pay for.

If i buy a burger i expect it to be cooked properly, if i buy a cstom rifle then i expect it to shoot to a certain degree of accuracy (beyond the accuracy of a factory rifle)

So far as i've heard/seen, and i use this loosely as obviously i have not heard of every rifle from every builder around the world or even just in Ireland for that matter, every custom rifle shoots as a custom rifle should with the expectant level of accuracy attained.

So now that i have answered all yer question maybe you could answer some of mine.

1. Does H&S accompany you to a range and watch as you fire your rifle?
2. Do they provide test cards of all their rifles performances?
3. What happens when something goes wrong with your rifle?
4. What is the back up service like?
5. What is the time frame for any backup service?
6. What is the time frame to get one built?
7. Can i choose a different barrel with H&S or are they preconfigured parts?
8. Can i choose any different part in the build or are they all preconfigured?
9. Do they allow for a longer barrel than merely 26"?
10. As you hold custom rifles to a higher standard does this apply to H&S?
11. You say H&S (McDonalds) is far superior to Custom rifle builders (Chippers). Does this extend to all rifle builders? Alan Warner, Callum Ferguson, etc.

zeissman

tomcat220t wrote: »

Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.
Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !
As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock .
Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P

Well my sako 85 6.5x55 hunting rifle will shoot 3/4 in groups at 200 yards with target ammo.
Thats good enough for me from a light barrel hunting rifle.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".

I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.

See above for answer.

I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

If not you might explain it please.

One of your posts your stating an accuracy guarantee would cost notthing extra ....then later you agree it would extra cost time and money
As there are no offers of accuracy guarantees here in ireland (to date) on custom rifles that is a big down side to some guys buying one over a high end factory custom rifle at the same price or cheaper.So in most peoples books looking to spend hard cash today the H/S and some other high end rifles are cheaper than the offerings in custom forms !
In the u.s these H/S rifles sell well and yet there are hundreds of gunsmith over there building rifles.
The prices stated in the H/S link are RRP prices and by the time a dealer buys direct from their factory (trade price)+shipping and taxes ...the prices over here would around 3000 euro .(contacted a dealer on this ).
Im not knocking custom built rifles .....ive had quite a few by now .But i have also shot H/S rifles and for the money they offer ....good value ,good accuracy and good resale value ...... oh yea ,nearly forgot AN ACCURACY GUARANTEE
This thread started off about H/S rifles ,of which by your words have never seen or shot one ........
Have you even a full custom built rifle to compare ?

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

One of your posts your stating an accuracy guarantee would cost notthing extra ....then later you agree it would extra cost time and money

Are you embarrassed, cause i'm not.

I agree that the gunsmith's time costing money is something i did not consider. You made your point, i conceded. As a discussion forum is it not about talking and informing people or is there some unwritten rule that all mods must know everything?

At worst a couple of hours on the range would cost a gunsmith a couple of hundred Euro in "time away from the shop". In this time he could test, and guarantee a few rifles so break that "loss in earnings" over those rifles, and it would cost less than €50 per rifle.

As there are no offers of accuracy guarantees here in ireland (to date) on custom rifles that is a big down side to some guys buying one over a high end factory custom rifle at the same price or cheaper.So in most peoples books looking to spend hard cash today the H/S and some other high end rifles are cheaper than the offerings in custom forms

Once again you are holding on tight to this 0.5MOA guarnatee at 100 yards. I have already told you that, that accuracy can be obtained from a standard factory rifle costing less than half the price of the H&S. So whats so impressive? What you claim to be able to shoot wih the one you done, which i have only your word you shot, is not a guarantee that H&S provide.

In the u.s these H/S rifles sell well and yet there are hundreds of gunsmith over there building rifles.

They must sell well somewhere otherwise they would be out of business. However ina country where they complain about buying a rifle for $450, that we pay €850 for i wonder how much llonger they would sell well?

The prices stated in the H/S link are RRP prices and by the time a dealer buys direct from their factory (trade price)+shipping and taxes ...the prices over here would around 3000 euro .(contacted a dealer on this ).

Whats your point? We already know its €3,000. We've been saying it all throughout the thread.

Im not knocking custom built rifles .....ive had quite a few by now .But i have also shot H/S rifles and for the money they offer ....good value ,good accuracy and good resale value ...... oh yea ,nearly forgot AN ACCURACY GUARANTEE

So your custom rifles. They do not shoot aswell as a H&S? I also find it odd that for someone that thinks so very highly of H&S, that you do not own one, and still went the custom route when getting your next rifle.

This thread started off about H/S rifles ,of which by your words have never seen or shot one ........
Have you even a full custom built rifle to compare ?

Would you not class my rifle as full custom becuase the action the rifle is built of is a Savage action?

Also maybe you could answer some of the questions i asked in my last post about H&S rifles.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Are you embarrassed, cause i'm not.

I agree that the gunsmith's time costing money is something i did not consider. You made your point, i conceded. As a discussion forum is it not about talking and informing people or is there some unwritten rule that all mods must know everything?

At worst a couple of hours on the range would cost a gunsmith a couple of hundred Euro in "time away from the shop". In this time he could test, and guarantee a few rifles so break that "loss in earnings" over those rifles, and it would cost less than €50 per rifle.

Once again you are holding on tight to this 0.5MOA guarnatee at 100 yards. I have already told you that, that accuracy can be obtained from a standard factory rifle costing less than half the price of the H&S. So whats so impressive? What you claim to be able to shoot wih the one you done, which i have only your word you shot, is not a guarantee that H&S provide.

They must sell well somewhere otherwise they would be out of business. However ina country where they complain about buying a rifle for $450, that we pay €850 for i wonder how much llonger they would sell well?

Whats your point? We already know its €3,000. We've been saying it all throughout the thread.

So your custom rifles. They do not shoot aswell as a H&S? I also find it odd that for someone that thinks so very highly of H&S, that you do not own one, and still went the custom route when getting your next rifle.

Would you not class my rifle as full custom becuase the action the rifle is built of is a Savage action?

Also maybe you could answer some of the questions i asked in my last post about H&S rifles.

You neither own a full custom rifle nor have you seen or shot a H/S so repying to any of the above is like flogging a dead horse ,sorry !Ive said what ive said on this ...let the readers decide what to spend their money on .

dCorbus

My 2c worth: I don't own nor have I ever seen or shot a HS Precision rifle, but I have say that I wouldn't be overly impressed with a "guarantee" such as HS advertise.

They "guarantee" that their rifles will shoot 0.5MOA at 100 yards. Whoop de do! Big Swing. If I was them I wouldn't be bragging too much about that sort of "achievement" out of what is purportedly a €3000 rifle.

Nor do they mention if that's with factory-ammo and in what kind of conditions. Seems to be a bit of marketing-spin to lure in folks.

Now, if they guaranteed 0.5MOA at 600 - 1000 yards, THAT I'd be impressed with. But FFS half an inch THREE shot group at a 100 yards? Come on, I know of a couple of .22's which could match that on a good day.

Also, what does this "guarantee" entail? If you don't shoot a 3-shot 0.5MOA group at 100 yards, what then? They'll replace the gun, give you your money back, recompense you for all the hassle? What? I don't really think so TBH.

Or maybe, just maybe, they know - as well as we should do - that a 3-shot group should really be a 5-shot group if you want to see what the grouping is REALLY like, and that half-inch three-shot group at 100yards is pretty achievable and thus their oh-so-impressive guarantee is safe and secure.

BTW HS Precision are also the self-same company who are now marketing an F-OPEN rifle in 6.5x284 which has a drop-mag and a 26in barrel. As they say themselves: "The FCR™ is designed to compete straight out of the box." It may well "compete" but it sure as f**k wouldn't be "competitive".

If that's the level of "expertise" and research they carry out, I'd be spending my money closer to home if I was you.

dCorbus

You neither own a full custom rifle

Eh? I think you'll find he does!
Or what would you define as a "custom rifle"? Please enlighten us. Thanks.

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

You neither own a full custom rifle ..... .

Just so we are clear.

• Savage action - Blueprinted.
• Tru-Flite/Bartlein barrel - Fitted
• Bespoke stock - Custom made/fitted
• Action glass and pillar bedded
• Custom rail

This is not a custom rifle?

patsat

I wouldn't be overly impressed with the accuracy guarantee,

I bought a brand new T3 lite for 795 euro and that comes with an accuracy guarantee of shooting 3 shots at 100m in under an inch!

I'm sure them H S rifles are well able to shoot but don't get too hung up on the accuracy guarantee, what would turn me off one of them is not being able to feel it first, with the custom rifle you can track its progress the whole way through and change every little thing that doesn't suit you.

But with the H S what happens if you buy one in and there is something you want to change about it? You will end up heading to your nearest custom rifle builder!

kakashka

Well i've seen several "custom rifles"from a well known "gun smith" that were a disaster and it was just tough sh1t with every excuse used,a guarantee has to be worth something..i prob would go the custon route myself but i'd be doing serious research re "gun smith's" before i spent
IMO Always cheaper to get a SH custom gun and more chance of checking before spend

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Just so we are clear.

• Savage action - Blueprinted.
• Tru-Flite/Bartlein barrel - Fitted
• Bespoke stock - Custom made/fitted
• Action glass and pillar bedded
• Custom rail

This is not a custom rifle?

Is that what you quoted me saying ...custom rifle or FULL custom rifle .
There is a big difference and you and i both know that !
The title of the thread is( HS Precision ) Not ( H/S Vs Custom build ).
Your the one squeezing inaccurate info. to feed your hidden agenda and derail the thread ,imo!
For a man who has not shot a H/S nor seen one and been this forum Mod ...how can you have 13 replys on this .

dCorbus

custom rifle or FULL custom rifle

Now, that's just pedantry!
What's a full custom rifle?

Is it one where you have the action custom-made specifically for you?
I'm not sure what the difference is?

So, are you saying that if someone was to advertise and sell a .204 based on a remington short-action as a CUSTOM rifle, they should really have clarified that it wasn't really a FULL custom rifle, but merely just a non-full plain ol' custom rifle?;) What you're saying is that would be maybe just a little bit dishonest to mislead a purchaser by omission of the facts?

Now, I'm not saying there's such a distinction between custom and custom and custom - but you are and I'm not 100% clear on what that distinction is?

tomcat220t wrote: »

The title of the thread is( HS Precision ) Not ( H/S Vs Custom build )

Yeah, but the OP does specifically mention going down the custom route in their first post on the subject. So, it seems to be perfectly on topic to give them some pointers in that direction - plus the HS "guarantee" was mentioned a couple of times as a selling-point, so it's really only fair to give the OP some advice on that particular bit of marketing nonsense.

tomcat220t wrote: »

custom rifle or FULL custom rifle .

There is a big difference and you and i both know that !

But, sorry I for one don't - Maybe I'm just slow or something, but could you be a little bit less obtuse and actually TELL us how you make the distinction? Thanks.

silverfox1

If the rifle was for just hunting i wouldn't bother going near a custom build especially if the op is looking for a lightweight rifle where a 0.5 moa is more than good enough. i went with a custom build a few years ago for just hunting and as well as it being brutal heavy it didn't shoot any better than a factory tikka or blaser or whatever. thats a story for another day though.

tomcat220t

dCorbus wrote: »

Now, that's just pedantry!
What's a full custom rifle?

Is it one where you have the action custom-made specifically for you?
I'm not sure what the difference is?

So, are you saying that if someone was to advertise and sell a .204 based on a remington short-action as a CUSTOM rifle, they should really have clarified that it wasn't really a FULL custom rifle, but merely just a non-full plain ol' custom rifle?;) What you're saying is that would be maybe just a little bit dishonest to mislead a purchaser by omission of the facts?

Now, I'm not saying there's such a distinction between custom and custom and custom - but you are and I'm not 100% clear on what that distinction is?

Since you tooked the time to check my .204 ad ....;)It was a CUSTOM BUILT rifle based on a remmy action ! Thats accurate in every sense of that description .
In the above statement of description have a guess what a FULL custom build is ?

dCorbus

silverfox1 wrote: »

If the rifle was for just hunting i wouldn't bother going near a custom build especially if the op is looking for a lightweight rifle where a 0.5 moa is more than good enough. i went with a custom build a few years ago for just hunting and as well as it being brutal heavy it didn't shoot any better than a factory tikka or blaser or whatever. thats a story for another day though.

Custom-builds (FULL or otherwise:rolleyes:) have come on a long long way recently in Ireland. There's now at least 3 decent gun-smiths who know their stuff, along with home-grown stock makers who'll set you up right. A custom hunting rifle? Well, only just last Saturday I was admiring one or two in .243 Next time, shop around - there's some great craftsmen and precision smiths working around the country these days!

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

Is that what you quoted me saying ...custom rifle or FULL custom rifle .

The quote i gave you was for someone to buy everything as a componant and have the rifle assembled from those parts.

There is a big difference and you and i both know that !

How so?

The title of the thread is( HS Precision ) Not ( H/S Vs Custom build ).

I read the thread, and responded with what i think would be a suitable compromise. I am allowed to do that. Also you responded defending H&S which allowed the thread to develope.

Your the one squeezing inaccurate info. to feed your hidden agenda and derail the thread ,imo!

Thats a serious allegation, and one i take personal offense to. I never mentioned any rifle builder, never said the OP should go custom. I only said if it were me i would take that route.

By your allegation that means that It wasn't me has a hidden agenda also as he said for the money he would also go custom. That accussation will not go unanswered, bu thats for another time and another forum.

For a man who has not shot a H/S nor seen one and been this forum Mod ...how can you have 13 replys on this .

Again you are telling me to shut up?

I am as entitled to reply as any and unless you see This font i am speaking as a user not a mod.

I have never commented on H&S rifles performance from personal experience as i have none, but i am entitled to question some things, and provide my opinion as i see it. Such as price.

Also i have answered every question as honestly as i can, yet you have not answered one of mine. Why?

dCorbus

tomcat220t wrote: »

Since you tooked the time to check my .204 ad ....;)It was a CUSTOM BUILT rifle based on a remmy action ! Thats accurate in every sense of that description .
In the above statement of description have a guess what a FULL custom build is ?

Yes, it was: Now I'm not in the guessing-game business and i have neither the time nor inclination to play games with you: So, as you're the one who makes the distinction between the two, i.e. CUSTOM v's FULL CUSTOM, do me (and probably the rest of the readers) the favour of stop being pedantic, obtuse, and disseminating away from the point, and ACTUALLY tell me the f**kin' difference, but dumb and thick as I am, I cannot figure out what it is you are talking about?

So, please now explain/define the following:
1. Custom Rifle
2. Custom Built Rifle
3. Full Custom Built Rifle
4. Full Custom Rifle

Coz, f**k me, I'm confused!

Hibrion

Just to let you know, I am taking everyone's opinions on board. The appealing thing, to me at least, about the H&S is that it is a 'factory custom' rifle. The rifle has to come with certain guarantees that custom builders often can't give.

I'm not knocking custom builds, it's just that for me, at present, I wouldn't go that route.
I am open to customizing a rifle. Perhaps buying something and having it bedded or a detachable mag system put in; small things to help with usability or accuracy.

I'm not aiming for a super high-end rifle either. I'm just considering everything left handed. Because there are a limited amount of manufacturers supplying left handed rifles, I've had to consider Remington to HS precision and everything in between.

One rifle I am not a fan of is the Tikka. It is not a big complaint, but the amount of plastic fittings really puts me off them. That being said, I know they are shooters. But then, a tikka with all metal fittings is basically a Sako, and they can be heavy old rifles. It is hard to get it right sometimes.

At the moment I'm waiting on prices for new savages in all the left handed models with a sporter barrels, while also giving very serious thought to this 7mm-08 Blaser R93 that I've been offered.

Out of curiosity, are there any other manufacturers who guarantee .5 MOA from the box? As I said, I don't want to argue about cost. Let's say we are looking at all rifles on an equal par, regardless of expense.

Hibrion

I think I can follow Tomcat. Now I'm not agreeing with one side or the other, but are you saying that there are customized rifles built on factory actions, taken from complete factory rifles, and custom rifles, built on custom actions like Mc Millan, etc.??

I'm not well up on custom builds, so forgive my ignorance in the matters. I'm a hunter rather than a target shooter (except for the pistol, but that's just pure fun to me) and have seen few custom/customized rifles.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

The quote i gave you was for someone to buy everything as a componant and have the rifle assembled from those parts.

How so?

I read the thread, and responded with what i think would be a suitable compromise. I am allowed to do that. Also you responded defending H&S which allowed the thread to develope.

Thats a serious allegation, and one i take personal offense to. I never mentioned any rifle builder, never said the OP should go custom. I only said if it were me i would take that route.

By your allegation that means that It wasn't me has a hidden agenda also as he said for the money he would also go custom. That accussation will not go unanswered, bu thats for another time and another forum.

Again you are telling me to shut up?

I am as entitled to reply as any and unless you see This font i am speaking as a user not a mod.

I have never commented on H&S rifles performance from personal experience as i have none, but i am entitled to question some things, and provide my opinion as i see it. Such as price.

Also i have answered every question as honestly as i can, yet you have not answered one of mine. Why?

For a guy who wants a so called accussation not to go unanswered the norm would be to PM me !Im far from telling ya to shut up !

tomcat220t

Hibrion wrote: »

Just to let you know, I am taking everyone's opinions on board. The appealing thing, to me at least, about the H&S is that it is a 'factory custom' rifle. The rifle has to come with certain guarantees that custom builders often can't give.

I'm not knocking custom builds, it's just that for me, at present, I wouldn't go that route.
I am open to customizing a rifle. Perhaps buying something and having it bedded or a detachable mag system put in; small things to help with usability or accuracy.

I'm not aiming for a super high-end rifle either. I'm just considering everything left handed. Because there are a limited amount of manufacturers supplying left handed rifles, I've had to consider Remington to HS precision and everything in between.

One rifle I am not a fan of is the Tikka. It is not a big complaint, but the amount of plastic fittings really puts me off them. That being said, I know they are shooters. But then, a tikka with all metal fittings is basically a Sako, and they can be heavy old rifles. It is hard to get it right sometimes.

At the moment I'm waiting on prices for new savages in all the left handed models with a sporter barrels, while also giving very serious thought to this 7mm-08 Blaser R93 that I've been offered.

Out of curiosity, are there any other manufacturers who guarantee .5 MOA from the box? As I said, I don't want to argue about cost. Let's say we are looking at all rifles on an equal par, regardless of expense.

RPA and Cooper just to metion a few .

Hibrion

tomcat220t wrote: »

RPA and Cooper just to metion a few .

A few what? Can you elaborate?

dCorbus

Hibrion wrote: »

The appealing thing, to me at least, about the H&S is that it is a 'factory custom' rifle.

TBH that's more "marketing speak". Doesn't really mean anything: It's a factory-built rifle, perhaps built to higher tolerance and quality control.

Hibrion wrote: »

The rifle has to come with certain guarantees that custom builders often can't give.

Again, if you want my un-biased opinion: That bit about the guarantee is meaningless - it's another marketing ploy. And frankly it's a pretty mediocre accuracy standard to be guaranteeing anyway.

Hibrion wrote: »

I'm not aiming for a super high-end rifle either

At €3000+, I'd call that a pretty super high-end rifle! Plus, what's their technical back-up in Ireland?

Hibrion wrote: »

Out of curiosity, are there any other manufacturers who guarantee .5 MOA from the box?

Can't think of any off-hand. Probably because most of the top-end and reputable dealers wouldn't insult their clientele by a) giving such a bullsh1t guarantee, and b) even if they did, it would want to be a tad better that 0.5MOA at 100yards.

EDIT: There's a couple (as tomcat points out), but frankly I wouldn't pay too much heed to that: RPA are great, and I'm surprised that they'd bother with such a sh1te arse marketing ploy. In fact, their guns are usually much better than a poxy 0.5MOA at 100yards - more like one-hole stuff TBH.

Hibrion wrote: »

I think I can follow Tomcat. Now I'm not agreeing with one side or the other, but are you saying that there are customized rifles built on factory actions, taken from complete factory rifles, and custom rifles, built on custom actions like Mc Millan, etc.??



I'm not well up on custom builds, so forgive my ignorance in the matters. I'm a hunter rather than a target shooter (except for the pistol, but that's just pure fun to me) and have seen few custom/customized rifles.

The only difference I can see between what tomcat is trying to differentiate is between a custom rifle with a blue-printed action and a custom rifle with a higher-end action, such as a stolle, barnard, etc - Now, personally a gun built around a decent solid action blueprinted, whilst possibly not as high-end as a precision action, is still a custom built rifle. Afterall, stolles, barnards, rpa's, etc are all still factory-made actions, just made to higher standards. Taking tomcats logic to the end, does that mean that for a rifle to be truly and fully custom the action must be a one-off custom part too? I don't really think so.

There are many different levels of customisation, you just need to pick the level and components and configuration that suits your needs and your budget.

But my advice to you (if you're looking at a €3000+ rifle), is to do some more research - and trust me, there's a lot of a rifles (factory and custom) out there that will cost in or around that amount, but have much better reputations, track-record, and don't rely on nonsensical guarantees.