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HS Precision

  • 29-01-2012 10:43PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

    I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!


«13

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Never had or even seen a full H&S rifle.

    Few questions though.
    1. Are you in the States?
    2. Whats it for?
    3. Any ideas what you want - design wise?
    The first question is probably the most important. If you're outside then prices will be higher bu the time you import, tax, VAT, duty, etc you could be looking at the dollar price in Euro for the rifle.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Hibrion


    Was speaking with an RFD yesterday (PM for name if you're interested) who is starting to get them in. I was given three grand as a rough price guide.

    I'd be looking at one of their light weight hunting rifles. Perhaps in a 308 with a 20 inch barrel.

    From what I gather, they have a great name, but I'd like to know specific feedback before forking this much cash out.

    I'm fed up with right handed rifles so i'm considering everything left handed:

    Blaser, I'm not a fan of the limited capacity and the removable trigger/ mag on the R8

    Savage, a model 111 or 116 wouldn't be a bad choice

    Remington cdl, basic, attractive rifle, but not the best shooter out of the box

    Winchester model 70, would love one but I don't think they make them anymore

    Finally I'm considering a Ruger scout, but I'm afraid it might be a bit of a gimmick

    tikka and Sako don't appeal to me all that much, if I found one of the other second hand at a good price I'd make do, but I'm not buying one new.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    For €3,000 i'd be going custom. No question.

    You could get a left handed action, barrel of your choice, left handed stock of your choice, glass/pillar bedding, threaded, blueprinted action, rail, and in any caliber you wanted all for about the €3,000 - €3,200 price mark.

    So as said if i were considering spending that much money on a rifle i would be looking at the custom route rather than trying to find a rifle that suited. rrespective of make, reputation, etc.

    As to the H&S, i would imagine they are a great rifle, but i think you may find it hard to get someone with any experience with the rifle. I would be happy to be wrong, but never even heard of someone talking about these rifles let lone using/owning one.

    Just my opinion.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Much like Ezri, for the money, no question I'd faff about with a factory rifle. I'd be putting it together from scratch. I'd bet it winds up cheaper too, for that matter! I'd start with a stock you like, personally. Stock fit matters more than most things. You can make a decent barrelled action with most things, but if it doesn't fit, you won't shoot to its potential. After that, it's personal choice really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Hibrion


    The thing is, I'm not really bothered with the hassle of a custom build. I'd prefer to buy something off the shelf, if I can. Damn my wrong eye dominance!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Join the club! I know it's a bit of grief, but it'd be worth it. Nice to get stuff off the shelf, and there's enough of a selection out there to leave you in good stead, but once you're not looking for a fairly affordable gun, and talking HS Precision money, no question but I'd go custom.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    ........ but once you're not looking for a fairly affordable gun, and talking HS Precision money, no question but I'd go custom.
    Precisely, and the only i reason i mentioned the custom route at all.

    I mean if you were lookig for a rifle or rifle and scope for €1,500 to €2,000 mark then by all means buy "off the shelf", but when you get into the €3,000+ mark for rifle ONLY then custom would be my choice.

    At the end of the day an off the shelf gun is still a "premade gun". By that i mean its made the same as every other make of its line, and if something doesn't suit or fit you've no option (other than paying to have it altered). With custom you decide from the first to the last screw.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Hibrion wrote: »
    Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

    I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!
    As for a custom build on a standard remmy action Vs H/S accruacy wise ....it would be close but my money would be on H/S.
    I think they give a .5moa guarantee !
    I shot one .....H/S rifles shoot ;).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Hibrion


    I think I'm going off the idea of the HS precision now. They seem to be shooters alright, but the price is just too high for factory.

    I'm now looking at a Blaser R93 in 7mm-08. Any thoughts on that? Seems a cracking bit of kit. The 3 round blind mag is the only downside I can see.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79 ✭✭Cupid__Stunt


    Hibrion wrote: »
    Does anyone have first hand experience with HS precision rifles?

    I'm considering buying one, but given the price I'd like some feedback first. It might be cheaper to go full custom!

    HS are a great rifle, have used one in .270 on several occasions and I had my heart set on one.... But then I built a custom and wouldn't swap it. Problem your gonna have with them is a 9-12 month wait getting the rifle. They promise 3 month delivery but it doesn't happen. Give Dominic Byrne a shout, he is also a lefty and is building himself a .270, left hand stiller action with a walther fluted barrel. You would have change out of your 3grand. Have another look at the R8 tho.. seriously good job. I'd have one already but I think they are a bit heavy.. I shoot with a lad that has one tho and it is a very good rifle.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I had a good browse of the H&S website. The €3,000 figure being used on this thread seems high, but consider this. Thats for the entry model/lowest priced one.

    They go as far as $5,600. Allowing for import, duties & VAT thats as close to €5,500 as i'd care to get. For €5,500 i could have two custom rifles built and each a unique design. Or of course one seriously good rifle if the mood took.:D

    Thing with H&S is the parts are all the same so bar a slight difference in colour, contour, etc there would be feck all between your "custom H&S", and "Paddy's" from down the road. Thats rather simplified, but you get the idea.

    I'm not knocking the H&S rifles. I'm sure they are a truely good rifle. However when you are talking about that much money i'm afraid in my book custom wins everytime.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Not saying i would pay 3000 for any factory rifle but in the case of H/S your getting a lot of rifle for the money ...even for an entry level .
    Break down the parts on a H/S and compare that with a custom build !
    Now after a year or so put the 2 up for sale and see what happens .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭Hondata92


    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/01/hs-precision-offers-factory-made-ppc-and-f-class-comp-rifles/

    Havent heard anyone mention it previously but do any of the Irish gunsmiths give an accuracy guarentee with their rifles??


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Not saying i would pay 3000 for any factory rifle but in the case of H/S your getting a lot of rifle for the money
    Not enough to warrant €3,000. But again only my opinion. Each to their own.
    ...even for an entry level .
    There is the kicker. "Entry" level or that money. Everything else is more expensive, hell even certain accessories on the "Entry" level one cost more. Meanign you could end up paying over €3,500 for it. Then there is the small matter of scope, rings, mounts, bipod, etc.
    Break down the parts on a H/S and compare that with a custom build !
    Now after a year or so put the 2 up for sale and see what happens
    Are you suggesting that a custom rifle costing the same to build as a H&S would be worth less than a H&S after 2 years?
    I think they give a .5moa guarantee
    At 100 yards. :rolleyes: Not overly impressive from such a rifle. Sub 0.5 moa would be better, but even 0.5 MOA guarantee at say 300 mtrs would impress me a bit more.

    My Savage hunter (fully equipped with scope, etc) does that already, and it cost half the price of the H&S rifle (with nothing added). Could not guarantee the same performance at 600 as i have never shot mine at that nor have i shot a H&S at all, but i assure you there are cheaper factory rifles (let alone custom builds) that shoot those groups all day long.
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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Hondata92 wrote: »
    Havent heard anyone mention it previously but do any of the Irish gunsmiths give an accuracy guarentee with their rifles??
    Couldn't tell ya.

    After saying that no Irish gunsmith is of the same size of H&S nor do they do continuous models. IOW they do not have a catalogue of models to choose from as each gun seems to be unique.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79 ✭✭Cupid__Stunt


    The only prob I see with custom rifles is the resale value.. I have 2 custom builds on tikka actions but they are still only worth what a second hand tikka is worth. The likes of HS or blasers will hold their money far better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Custom action +cut rifle barrel +match trigger + top stock + mag fed+ tested for accuracy +accuracy guarantee .How much would that cost in a custom form ?
    And there is no doubt in my mind what would sell quicker and hold more value between the two .


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The only prob I see with custom rifles is the resale value..
    While always an important factor it should not be the deciding factor when buying a firearm.
    I have 2 custom builds on tikka actions but they are still only worth what a second hand tikka is worth.
    Just out of interest. A new Tikka would run an average (taking into account all models) of €1,100. Add on custom barrel, bedding, stock, trigger, and you reckon you would still only get €700 for it?
    The likes of HS or blasers will hold their money far better.
    Possibly. I couldn't answer that having never owned one, and i see very little in Blasers for sale second hand. Oners not willing to part with them i reckon.:)
    tomcat220t wrote: »
    Custom action +cut rifle barrel +match trigger + top stock + mag fed+ tested for accuracy +accuracy guarantee .How much would that cost in a custom form ?
    Roughly about between €2,900 to €3,200. As for the accuracy guarantee that costs nothing in terms of money, but if the rifle is built well then its a guarantee any rifle smith can/could provide after testing the rifle.
    And there is no doubt in my mind what would sell quicker and hold more value between the two .
    Again i have to take your word on the resale value of the H&S rifle. I have never seen one for sale here so cannot comment, but i assume you have given your certainty on the matter.

    Just to be clear i am not knocking H&S. I have said this multiple times. I have never owned one and its a rifle that if i had the cash, and licensing it were not such an issue i probably wouldn't mind having, but my only concern is the price of the rifle when there are imilar or better options at the same or even less money.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Not enough to warrant €3,000. But again only my opinion. Each to their own.

    There is the kicker. "Entry" level or that money. Everything else is more expensive, hell even certain accessories on the "Entry" level one cost more. Meanign you could end up paying over €3,500 for it. Then there is the small matter of scope, rings, mounts, bipod, etc.

    Are you suggesting that a custom rifle costing the same to build as a H&S would be worth less than a H&S after 2 years?

    At 100 yards. :rolleyes: Not overly impressive from such a rifle. Sub 0.5 moa would be better, but even 0.5 MOA guarantee at say 300 mtrs would impress me a bit more.

    My Savage hunter (fully equipped with scope, etc) does that already, and it cost half the price of the H&S rifle (with nothing added). Could not guarantee the same performance at 600 as i have never shot mine at that nor have i shot a H&S at all, but i assure you there are cheaper factory rifles (let alone custom builds) that shoot those groups all day long.
    The H/S hunting rifle i shot held .35 moa @330 yards off a sand bag ......THEY SHOOT :cool:.That was with hunting ammo :eek:.0.5 moa is the guarantee ...does not mean that it not capable of better !First function of any rifle of interest is it must shoot ,end of !Looks ,once offs.... ect all comes a distance second to a rifle thats shoots ,imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Ezridax wrote: »
    While always an important factor it should not be the deciding factor when buying a firearm.

    Just out of interest. A new Tikka would run an average (taking into account all models) of €1,100. Add on custom barrel, bedding, stock, trigger, and you reckon you would still only get €700 for it?

    Possibly. I couldn't answer that having never owned one, and i see very little in Blasers for sale second hand. Oners not willing to part with them i reckon.:)

    Roughly about between €2,900 to €3,200. As for the accuracy guarantee that costs nothing in terms of money, but if the rifle is built well then its a guarantee any rifle smith can/could provide after testing the rifle.

    Again i have to take your word on the resale value of the H&S rifle. I have never seen one for sale here so cannot comment, but i assume you have given your certainty on the matter.

    Just to be clear i am not knocking H&S. I have said this multiple times. I have never owned one and its a rifle that if i had the cash, and licensing it were not such an issue i probably wouldn't mind having, but my only concern is the price of the rifle when there are imilar or better options at the same or even less money.
    I know your not knocking the H/S but they are mass produced, hand built (all in house top parts )custom rifles .
    Haven said that i still like the idea of getting a built rifle over a factory one .
    The final product between the two id have to say the H/S would be better finished off and hold its resale value better .Nether or which would mean a lot to me if it shot .


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    tomcat220t wrote: »
    The H/S hunting rifle i shot held .35 moa @330 yards off a sand bag ......THEY SHOOT :cool:.That was with hunting ammo :eek:.0.5 moa is the guarantee ...does not mean that it not capable of better .
    Thats good shooting by all accounts, but thats you, and not a guarantee from the manufacturer.

    Also I never said they couldn't shoot. How could i having never shot one. I am merely responding to the claims on the website.

    I'm sure in the right hands the rifle could do alot better, but H&S cannot guarantee better groups because no matter the quality of the rifle its the "nut behind the butt" that counts.

    Look at the recent shoot in the midlands. There were lads shooting at 600 yards with less expensive, and by no means custom rifles, and some were shooting some pretty tight groups in the string. One shooter, i believe, had a 4 consecutive shot group of about 2"-2.5". Thats unconfirmed, but my point being even without the big expensive custom rifle the man pulling the trigger is key.

    Anyway i'm going slightly off topic. Forget the custom thing for the minute. A Sako 85, decent S&B/Leupold scope, rings, mounts, etc would stand you what.......... €3,500. (?) Thats a fantastic setup for pretty much the same money.
    ............ id have to say the H/S would be better finished off
    This seems to be the "basis" of our different opinions. I look at the H&S and quite frankly i see a Remmy in a H&S stock. I know looks count for nothin if it shoots like crap, but really i would still place some "stock" in the looks of a rifle. I mean we are all that little bit vain about our guns, and the better looking the better. For the show-off factor. :D;)

    All i'm saying, is all i have been saying. There are other options, but hey if someone wants to go and splash out by all means knock yourself out. I suppose the true measure of their success will be in the sales figures, and performance/comps, etc by their owners.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Thats good shooting by all accounts, but thats you, and not a guarantee from the manufacturer.

    Also I never said they couldn't shoot. How could i having never shot one. I am merely responding to the claims on the website.

    I'm sure in the right hands the rifle could do alot better, but H&S cannot guarantee better groups because no matter the quality of the rifle its the "nut behind the butt" that counts.

    Look at the recent shoot in the midlands. There were lads shooting at 600 yards with less expensive, and by no means custom rifles, and some were shooting some pretty tight groups in the string. One shooter, i believe, had a 4 consecutive shot group of about 2"-2.5". Thats unconfirmed, but my point being even without the big expensive custom rifle the man pulling the trigger is key.

    Anyway i'm going slightly off topic. Forget the custom thing for the minute. A Sako 85, decent S&B/Leupold scope, rings, mounts, etc would stand you what.......... €3,500. (?) Thats a fantastic setup for pretty much the same money.

    This seems to be the "basis" of our different opinions. I look at the H&S and quite frankly i see a Remmy in a H&S stock. I know looks count for nothin if it shoots like crap, but really i would still place some "stock" in the looks of a rifle. I mean we are all that little bit vain about our guns, and the better looking the better. For the show-off factor. :D;)

    All i'm saying, is all i have been saying. There are other options, but hey if someone wants to go and splash out by all means knock yourself out. I suppose the true measure of their success will be in the sales figures, and performance/comps, etc by their owners.
    Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.
    Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
    It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !
    As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock :confused:.
    Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
    You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    tomcat220t wrote: »
    Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.
    Way to insult all Sako owners.

    Plus i'm not comparing them i am offering another alternative to a €3,000 rifle. Lets face it if its for hunting a fox, deer, etc will not be stnding there waiting for you to group three shots.
    Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
    It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !
    Do explain.
    As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock :confused:.
    What? Putting a "confused" emoticon is not a statement.
    Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
    You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P
    I thought you had a fully custom 6XC? Or am i confusing you with someone else? Also a 7mmWSM. Again fully custom. How much were they? Also they are not the worse looking rifles i've ever seen.

    Would you prefer a H&S over them?
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Way to insult all Sako owners.

    Plus i'm not comparing them i am offering another alternative to a €3,000 rifle. Lets face it if its for hunting a fox, deer, etc will not be stnding there waiting for you to group three shots.

    Do explain.

    What? Putting a "confused" emoticon is not a statement.

    I thought you had a fully custom 6XC? Or am i confusing you with someone else? Also a 7mmWSM. Again fully custom. How much were they? Also they are not the worse looking rifles i've ever seen.

    Would you prefer a H&S over them?
    You think that a .5moa accuracy guarantee on every built rifle just happens ?
    They would have to be tested ..each and every one = time and money ,simple !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭Hondata92


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Couldn't tell ya.

    After saying that no Irish gunsmith is of the same size of H&S nor do they do continuous models. IOW they do not have a catalogue of models to choose from as each gun seems to be unique.

    So when you got your rifle rebarreled with a custom barrel you were given no guarantee that it would shoot accurately?? Did you get any guarantee at all besides that once loaded it make a bang and send a round out when you pull the trigger?

    Comparing HS Precision to a custom rifle builder is like comparing Mc Donalds to the local chipper but 9/10 times they both guarantee that what ever i order is going to be cooked properly.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    tomcat220t wrote: »
    You think that a .5moa accuracy guarantee on every built rifle just happens ?
    They would have to be tested ..each and every one = time and money ,simple !
    True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

    No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".
    Hondata92 wrote: »
    So when you got your rifle rebarreled with a custom barrel you were given no guarantee that it would shoot accurately??
    I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.
    Did you get any guarantee at all besides that once loaded it make a bang and send a round out when you pull the trigger?
    See above for answer.
    Comparing HS Precision to a custom rifle builder is like comparing Mc Donalds to the local chipper but 9/10 times they both guarantee that what ever i order is going to be cooked properly.
    I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

    Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

    If not you might explain it please.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭Hondata92


    Ezridax wrote: »
    True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

    No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".

    I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.

    See above for answer.

    I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

    Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

    If not you might explain it please.

    So what guarantee were you given if you did your part?

    Did your rifle builder range test your rifle and give you a target to show how it performs?

    My metaphor is basically, i pay for a service i expect to get what i pay for.

    If i buy a burger i expect it to be cooked properly, if i buy a cstom rifle then i expect it to shoot to a certain degree of accuracy (beyond the accuracy of a factory rifle)


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Hondata92 wrote: »
    So what guarantee were you given if you did your part?
    You mean was i given a 0.5MOA guarantee? Or some other figure at some distance?

    No. No figure given. I was told she will one hole at 100 yards. Probably not technical enough for some, but good enough for me.
    Did your rifle builder range test your rifle and give you a target to show how it performs?
    Yes.
    My metaphor is basically, i pay for a service i expect to get what i pay for.

    If i buy a burger i expect it to be cooked properly, if i buy a cstom rifle then i expect it to shoot to a certain degree of accuracy (beyond the accuracy of a factory rifle)
    So far as i've heard/seen, and i use this loosely as obviously i have not heard of every rifle from every builder around the world or even just in Ireland for that matter, every custom rifle shoots as a custom rifle should with the expectant level of accuracy attained.

    So now that i have answered all yer question maybe you could answer some of mine.
    1. Does H&S accompany you to a range and watch as you fire your rifle?
    2. Do they provide test cards of all their rifles performances?
    3. What happens when something goes wrong with your rifle?
    4. What is the back up service like?
    5. What is the time frame for any backup service?
    6. What is the time frame to get one built?
    7. Can i choose a different barrel with H&S or are they preconfigured parts?
    8. Can i choose any different part in the build or are they all preconfigured?
    9. Do they allow for a longer barrel than merely 26"?
    10. As you hold custom rifles to a higher standard does this apply to H&S?
    11. You say H&S (McDonalds) is far superior to Custom rifle builders (Chippers). Does this extend to all rifle builders? Alan Warner, Callum Ferguson, etc.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭zeissman


    tomcat220t wrote: »
    Not been smart but to compare a sako 85 (beretta) hammer forged to a H/S custom cut rifle is like compairing supped up starlet turbo to a bmw M5 :rolleyes:.
    Just like to say ,there is a very good reason why gunsmiths here dont put accuracy guarantees on the builds .
    It would cost extra money and time ,FACT !
    As for the H/S looking like a remmy in a H/S stock :confused:.
    Most custom actions are based on a remmy foot print action .
    You should know best ,owning a savage .....it not all about looks :P
    Well my sako 85 6.5x55 hunting rifle will shoot 3/4 in groups at 200 yards with target ammo.
    Thats good enough for me from a light barrel hunting rifle.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭tomcat220t


    Ezridax wrote: »
    True. Each rifle would need to be tested, and that test would act as a guarantee of performance.

    No reason why they couldn't. It wouldn't be that expensive to bring a few rifles per week/month to a range, test fire them, and issue test cards as a "guarantee".

    I was given a "guarantee" by the builder that if i done my part the rifle would perform. So far that has been the case.

    See above for answer.

    I'm not sure if its the late hour or your metaphor, but i'm not fully following.

    Are you saying that while one is a large, well established manufacturer, and the other a smaller, less established manufacturer that both can/could/should provide a guarantee?

    If not you might explain it please.
    One of your posts your stating an accuracy guarantee would cost notthing extra ....then later you agree it would extra cost time and money :o
    As there are no offers of accuracy guarantees here in ireland (to date) on custom rifles that is a big down side to some guys buying one over a high end factory custom rifle at the same price or cheaper.So in most peoples books looking to spend hard cash today the H/S and some other high end rifles are cheaper than the offerings in custom forms !
    In the u.s these H/S rifles sell well and yet there are hundreds of gunsmith over there building rifles.
    The prices stated in the H/S link are RRP prices and by the time a dealer buys direct from their factory (trade price)+shipping and taxes ...the prices over here would around 3000 euro .(contacted a dealer on this ).
    Im not knocking custom built rifles .....ive had quite a few by now .But i have also shot H/S rifles and for the money they offer ....good value ,good accuracy and good resale value ...... oh yea ,nearly forgot AN ACCURACY GUARANTEE ;)
    This thread started off about H/S rifles ,of which by your words have never seen or shot one ........
    Have you even a full custom built rifle to compare ?


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