Septic tank charges

MadsL

flutered wrote: »

you may be correct up to a point, who are in a position to buy a house, will a letter from the council saying ones tank is ok make it more valueable, i doubt it, as it will need another piece of paper the following year, this is like christmas it will cost money each year, because the rules will be changed each year, nothing stays the same where goverments, money, quangos and contractors, are all involved in the mix, just look at the water meters, the country will recieve flyers/booklets as regards water but no mention of costs and /or a start up date, so a waste of money.

Sorry, what have water charges got to do with it?

You are being inspected A. To show that the system works correctly, and B. That you are desludging the tank regularly.

I expect there are people for who it is news that they are supposed to desludge the tank.

If you can't afford it, sell your house and move.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, what have water charges got to do with it?

You are being inspected A. To show that the system works correctly, and B. That you are desludging the tank regularly.

I expect there are people for who it is news that they are supposed to desludge the tank.

If you can't afford it, sell your house and move.

i made the point about water charges to point out how things are done here

sell my house and move, who are buying them, move to where

things are not easily done, like selling and moving on.

did not you make a point about not being able to sell without all the paper work being correct.

MadsL

flutered wrote: »

i made the point about water charges to point out how things are done here

Water charges are nothing to do with septic charges. Completely separate topic.

sell my house and move, who are buying them, move to where

things are not easily done, like selling and moving on.

If you can't afford to maintain your house why would you live in it?

did not you make a point about not being able to sell without all the paper work being correct.

No, I made the point that work being done to a house through grants paid for by the taxpayer ultimately adds value to the house to the financial benefit of the homeowner.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

Water charges are nothing to do with septic charges. Completely separate topic.


If you can't afford to maintain your house why would you live in it?



No, I made the point that work being done to a house through grants paid for by the taxpayer ultimately adds value to the house to the financial benefit of the homeowner.

point 1, i am still making the point about the way this goverment works

point 2 i never said that i could not afford to mantain my house, even if i left it go to wreck and ruin, i could live away in it, then like some types of spongers the corpo will do it up for me, (good thinking 99)

point 3, i prefer to do my own work to my house, in my own time in my own way.

MadsL

flutered wrote: »

point 1, i am still making the point about the way this goverment works

The Government is the one elected by the people is it not? If you don't like it - run for office.

point 2 i never said that i could not afford to mantain my house, even if i left it go to wreck and ruin, i could live away in it, then like some types of spongers the corpo will do it up for me, (good thinking 99)

Except some here want a grant for that, and for the taxpayers to foot the bill. I see you think those people are scoungers.

point 3, i prefer to do my own work to my house, in my own time in my own way.

So you won't be applying for a grant if your septic tank fails inspection then?

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

The Government is the one elected by the people is it not? If you don't like it - run for office.


Except some here want a grant for that, and for the taxpayers to foot the bill. I see you think those people are scoungers.


So you won't be applying for a grant if your septic tank fails inspection then?

no 1 there are a lot of people very unimpressed with the gov, i cannot run, mores the pity, docs orders
no2 you have the wrong end of the stick on this one, trying to twist words are we, political speak so to say
no3 it wont

MadsL

flutered wrote: »

no 1 there are a lot of people very unimpressed with the gov, i cannot run, mores the pity, docs orders

Your doctor specifically told you not to run for public office. As opposed to running for, say, a bus.

no2 you have the wrong end of the stick on this one, trying to twist words are we, political speak so to say

But you did say people who let taxpayers fix their house are scroungers?

no3 it wont

Then €5 is all it cost you. Why the complaining?

Sam Kade

Last time I checked it was €50 to register

MadsL

Sam Kade wrote: »

Last time I checked it was €50 to register

You had plenty of time to register at the €5 rate.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

Your doctor specifically told you not to run for public office. As opposed to running for, say, a bus.

yeah i am unable to walk is one, cancer being another, i would say two good reasons, op your answers are rather funny i see you like to think, actually i agree as i am lol


But you did say people who let taxpayers fix their house are scroungers?

oh no, you are again trying to twist words, that sentence gives the impression that it has been invented by a pr person, a politician or a failed comedian, possible even a mix mash of all three.




Then €5 is all it cost you. Why the complaining?

it would have been a waste of a fiver,

Sam Kade

MadsL wrote: »

You had plenty of time to register at the €5 rate.

Don't worry I have it sorted

Sponge Bob

I agree with you Flutered.

Anyway If everyone was suddenly fully compliant (grey water and all) there is nowhere near enough capacity to desludge and process that sludge in Ireland. Most sewage schemes are at capacity to deal with urban sewage in the main. How can they 'process' another 400-500k households when they are at capacity already??? The last government did nothing to prepare for augmented processing as the last government only really wanted to clear the countryside anyway.

This should always have been a nationally integrated system incorporating the full processing ecosytem and with urban dwellers paying too as that is where the sludge is and will continue to be proessed. Instead it is a farce and in many cases simply a way to harass certain people when many are paying nothing at all towards this system.

Sponge Bob

The system is riddled with anomalies, people in the Dublin Corporation area use septic tanks (2000 households) and they will get the proposed grant to connect to the public sewage system of course.

If the works involved cost more than the grant ( as the will) then the taxpayer (IE= ME ) will step in to top up the cost seeing as private individuals are not allowed to build public sewers.

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I agree with you Flutered.

Anyway If everyone was suddenly fully compliant (grey water and all) there is nowhere near enough capacity to desludge and process that sludge in Ireland. Most sewage schemes are at capacity to deal with urban sewage in the main. How can they 'process' another 400-500k households when they are at capacity already???

Firstly, have you a source that confirms sewage schemes are at capacity?Secondly, adding sludge to existing sewage is kind of pointless. There are numerous ways to dispose of it, not the least of which is to actually commercially sell it as fertiliser. It can be land spread, or dumped in landfill, incinerated or used an anerobic system to generate CHP at factories. Sludge potentially could be profitable for private contractors in much the same way recycling was once seen as 'mad' is now turning a profit for the waste companies.

The last government did nothing to prepare for augmented processing as the last government only really wanted to clear the countryside anyway.

Clear the countryside? What on earth are you on about?

This should always have been a nationally integrated system incorporating the full processing ecosytem and with urban dwellers paying too as that is where the sludge is and will continue to be proessed. Instead it is a farce and in many cases simply a way to harass certain people when many are paying nothing at all towards this system.

What do you mean "where the sludge is"?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The system is riddled with anomalies, people in the Dublin Corporation area use septic tanks (2000 households) and they will get the proposed grant to connect to the public sewage system of course.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be connected to the mains sewage system if that is at all possible?

If the works involved cost more than the grant ( as the will) then the taxpayer (IE= ME ) will step in to top up the cost seeing as private individuals are not allowed to build public sewers.

But you want taxpayers to pay the full cost of bring substandard septic tanks up to scratch. Including some tanks that the homeowners have spent not a penny on since installation over 40 years ago.

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The system is riddled with anomalies, people in the Dublin Corporation area use septic tanks (2000 households) and they will get the proposed grant to connect to the public sewage system of course.

DCC are pretty convinced that that figure is bollox, though. Its a CSO figure from the census and its believed that the figure is about the margin of error when someone who doesn't know is asked.

They had 91 tanks registered with only days to go.

Sponge Bob

MadsL wrote: »

Firstly, have you a source that confirms sewage schemes are at capacity?Secondly, adding sludge to existing sewage is kind of pointless.

I counted them up. We DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to process every septic tank and grey water install as well as urban areas where the Sewage treatment facilities are.

One is legally entitled to go to a coastal town and dump it straight in the sewers there where it will legally go out to sea unprocessed on an outfall ( until 2015 that is when the Urban Waste Water Directive kyboshes that one. )

There are numerous ways to dispose of it, not the least of which is to actually commercially sell it as fertiliser. It can be land spread, or dumped in landfill, incinerated or used an anerobic system to generate CHP at factories. Sludge potentially could be profitable for private contractors in much the same way recycling was once seen as 'mad' is now turning a profit for the waste companies.

After it is processed, which is impossible seeing as there is nowhere to process it liek I said. You are describing 'deactivated' sludge.

Any idea why the urban and PROCESSED sludge from Galway was being dumped in Eyrecourt if it was so 'valuable' so ???

> http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82138 and why a Green Minister for the Environment tolerated this carry on for 2 years and then > http://www.photos.galwaynews.ie/7267-council-finally-orders-closure-sludge-farm

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I counted them up.

I see. Reliable sources as ever, Bob.

We DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to process every septic tank and grey water install as well as urban areas where the Sewage treatment facilities are.

Evidence?

One is legally entitled to go to a coastal town and dump it straight in the sewers there where it will legally go out to sea unprocessed on an outfall ( until 2015 that is when the Urban Waste Water Directive kyboshes that one. )

Errrm. Nope.

Up to 1999 some sludge was disposed of to sea mainly from the Ringsend Treatment Plant (figures from the EPA's report on Urban Waste Water Discharges in Ireland 2002 and 2003). Disposal of sewage sludge at sea has been terminated.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/SludgeManagement/

After it is processed, which is impossible seeing as there is nowhere to process it liek I said. You are describing 'deactivated' sludge.

In 2003 42,298 Tonnes Dry Solids were produced at agglomerates with a population equivalent in excess of 500. Some 63% of this sludge was re-used on agricultural land and 35% is disposed to landfill.

Source as above.

Any idea why the urban and PROCESSED sludge from Galway was being dumped in Eyrecourt if it was so 'valuable' so ???

Because we are at the early stages of copping on. We used to bury valuable electronics and plastics.

Sponge Bob

Stop conflating processed (deactivated ) and unprocessed (active) sludge for starters. Septic tanks prodiuce the latter once you drown the tank in Grey water and there is no capacity to process that in Ireland. End Of.

The Galway city system is maxed out, you find me where the capacity is to process 500k odd houses added to the current plant nationally.

I'll keep it really simple for your counting exercise lest I be accused of being unkind.

Other than Galway find the next 4 largest systems in Ireland and their design capacities and sum up the aggregate headroom. The most recent large plant opened last week to save you more bother and would have spare capacity less than all the septic tanks within 20 miles I reckon

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0131/breaking66.html

Farmer Pudsey

MadsL wrote: »

Firstly, have you a source that confirms sewage schemes are at capacity?Secondly, adding sludge to existing sewage is kind of pointless. There are numerous ways to dispose of it, not the least of which is to actually commercially sell it as fertiliser. It can be land spread, or dumped in landfill, incinerated or used an anerobic system to generate CHP at factories. Sludge potentially could be profitable for private contractors in much the same way recycling was once seen as 'mad' is now turning a profit for the waste companies.


Clear the countryside? What on earth are you on about?


What do you mean "where the sludge is"?


Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be connected to the mains sewage system if that is at all possible?



But you want taxpayers to pay the full cost of bring substandard septic tanks up to scratch. Including some tanks that the homeowners have spent not a penny on since installation over 40 years ago.

It is illegal to spread untreated sewage on land and as far as I am aware treated sludge cannot be use as fertlizer on land that is food producing. The only place that it can be spread is on biomass crops such as Elephant Grass and there is not nearly enough of that to take much of it.

The homeowner that have not spend a penny on there septic tanks in the last 40 years have spend as much as unban dwellers have spend in the last forty years on there sewage systems.

If these septic tanks were build to the planning regulations then the are not substandard. You fail to mention all the substandard treatment plant in urban area's that send untreated sewage into rivers.

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Stop conflating processed (deactivated ) and unprocessed (active) sludge for starters. Septic tanks prodiuce the latter once you drown the tank in Grey water and there is no capacity to process that in Ireland. End Of.

Compost it. End of.
Sustainable strategies for biomass use in the European context, 2010, indicates likely availability of 350,000 tonnes straw, 61,150,000 tonnes excrements & litter, 620,000 tonnes other harvest residues and 10,000 tonnes sewage sludge.
Market Report on Irish Organic Waste Management and Compost Use
There are already facilities for composting sludges in Ireland and expansion is not as expensive as plant treatment. It may even be self-generating as the market expands.

The Galway city system is maxed out, you find me where the capacity is to process 500k odd houses added to the current plant nationally.

Then, as I have said above, we find alternative disposal methods. Is Galway maxed out after the 2012 upgrade? Really? Source for that?

I'll keep it really simple for your counting exercise lest I be accused of being unkind.

Your rather patronising assumption is misdirection as WWTP may not be where the sludge is dealt with.

Other than Galway find the next 4 largest systems in Ireland and their design capacities and sum up the aggregate headroom. The most recent large plant opened last week to save you more bother and would have spare capacity less than all the septic tanks within 20 miles I reckon

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0131/breaking66.html

[/QUOTE]

What is your estimation of the sludge tonnage involved in 440,000 septic tanks? Say 80l per person per year? source
Assume (wildly optimistic) every tank sludged every year, and an average two person household. 160kg x 440,000 tanks = 70 400 metric tonnes. Just seven times the current estimated biomass requirement. except that 70k tonnes will not appear overnight and we are yet to scratch the surface of composting and methane production for CHP.

Arguing that we should do nothing because we have not yet developed facilities to deal with a problem that doesn't yet exist is nonsensical.

Sponge Bob

I'm sure I am not alone in failing to grasp what that last post was about.

Therefore I will invite you again to show where the active sludge generated by this inspection regime can be processed to a point where it is INACTIVE and in IRELAND.

And then we might try a civilised discussion on what to do with all of this inactive sludge.

Farmer Pudsey

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I'm sure I am not alone in failing to grasp what that last post was about.

Therefore I will invite you again to show where the active sludge generated by this inspection regime can be processed to a point where it is INACTIVE and in IRELAND.

And then we might try a civilised discussion on what to do with all of this inactive sludge.

Look Bob it saturday night now and again we have to forgive and forget you know what saturday nights are like especially running into sunday morning some people have not got yours and mine staying poooooooweeeeeeeeeeeeeer

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I'm sure I am not alone in failing to grasp what that last post was about.

Therefore I will invite you again to show where the active sludge generated by this inspection regime can be processed to a point where it is INACTIVE and in IRELAND.

And then we might try a civilised discussion on what to do with all of this inactive sludge.

You first need to demonstrate that there is a problem with the existing methods of disposal, do you have any proof that there is insufficient capacity other than your own assertion that there isn't?

Currently we have (restricted, not illegal Pudsey) agricultural disposal, WWTP disposal and composting. What evidence are you presenting to say that these methods will be unable to process additional sludge.

You are one asserting there is a problem Bob, not me, and so far you have presented NO evidence to support such claims.

recedite

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Therefore I will invite you again to show where the active sludge generated by this inspection regime can be processed to a point where it is INACTIVE and in IRELAND.

Septic tanks need to be desludged every few years anyway, regardless of any new legislation. 80l /person/annum seems a reasonable estimate. Why do you think an inspection regime will generate additional sludge?

Sponge Bob

recedite wrote: »

Septic tanks need to be desludged every few years anyway, regardless of any new legislation. 80l /person/annum seems a reasonable estimate. Why do you think an inspection regime will generate additional sludge?

Septic tanks should be desludged every few years as you said, many are not so that catchup factor will cause a demand spike when the inspections start. I'd advise anyone who hasn't done so to desludge quickly....I suspect prices will rocket fairly soon....starting around April I should think. Currently a desludge costs around €150-180.

I would think the result of the inspection regime will be a greatly enhanced frequency of desludging and that enhanced frequency is where the 'additional' sludge will come form to overwhelm the processing capacity nationwide.

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Septic tanks should be desludged every few years as you said, many are not so that catchup factor will cause a demand spike when the inspections start. I'd advise anyone who hasn't done so to desludge quickly....I suspect prices will rocket fairly soon....starting around April I should think. Currently a desludge costs around €150-180.

I would think the result of the inspection regime will be a greatly enhanced frequency of desludging and that enhanced frequency is where the 'additional' sludge will come form to overwhelm the processing capacity nationwide.

And you say this will be a problem. Do you have any evidence for that? Increased volumes may make commercial processing and composting facilities more economically viable. And "overwhelm"? The link that you posted about the Bray WWTP specifically mentions a capacity potential increase of 33% in future.

Poolbeg incinerator will add an incineration option in future as well, and with 26,000 net emigration, population numbers look to stabilise in the medium term.

You are making an argument that we should not fix a current problem in case we run into a future problem that you have so far failed to show is even a problem with existing capacity, never mind future capacity. It makes no sense to not inspect tanks from that viewpoint.

If inspections will cause capacity problems, then explain to me how Cavan County Council who have been conducting septic tank inspections since 2007 do not appear to be "overwhelmed" by sludge.

Sponge Bob

MadsL wrote: »

explain to me how Cavan County Council who have been conducting septic tank inspections since 2007 do not appear to be "overwhelmed" by sludge.

Because it shows up in other counties than Cavan is why.

Again you refuse to address the fact that owing to the cack handed design of the entire scheme there no headroom in the system to process a sudden surge of sludge and your Bray 33% extra goodness that I pointed you at originally will take years to provision, it aint even built. I also assume you counted up the headroom factors I asked you to, found out I was right and decided to ignore the issue. Nothing I can do about that I suppose.

I suspect that those who did not register will be ignored for years, the 80% who did will overwhelm the system anyway.

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Because it shows up in other counties than Cavan is why.

Again you refuse to address the fact that owing to the cack handed design of the entire scheme there no headroom in the system to process a sudden surge of sludge and your Bray 33% extra goodness that I pointed you at originally will take years to provision, it aint even built. I also assume you counted up the headroom factors I asked you to, found out I was right and decided to ignore the issue. Nothing I can do about that I suppose.

I suspect that those who did not register will be ignored for years, the 80% who did will overwhelm the system anyway.

You haven't shown any evidence of that though.

You are asking me to prove your point for you. Figures please, and sources.

Sponge Bob

Ringsend was at capacity years ago which is why they propose to build that tunnel etc. Do you accept that ( it is by far the largest WWTP)

In order to desludge regularly we need a National Surplus WWTP capacity of around 1,100,000 P/E. Do you accept that too.

If no to either or both a one liner explaining why will suffice.

recedite

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I would think the result of the inspection regime will be a greatly enhanced frequency of desludging and that enhanced frequency is where the 'additional' sludge will come form to overwhelm the processing capacity nationwide.

I don't think the maths works here. Enhanced frequency does not mean more volume. Even if we assume more frequent desludging, it would mean less sludge per desludging event.