Septic tank charges

Galwayguy35

creedp wrote: »

I do think there is an expectation that people who need to upgrade their tanks should get significant public funds to achieve this. The Q is why. If I NCT my car and if fails and would cost thousands to get right can I look for a grant to fund this cost? No I have to repair the car myself of replace the car or get the bus? It dosn't matter if I am wealthy or poor young or old. Why then should a different approach apply to septic tanks. If a person built a house a number of years ago and spent very little on a tank which is now considered sub standard why should he get a grant to substantially upgrade the tank when his neighbour who build recently and was forced to spend €4 to €5k on a filtration system and received no grant/assistance for this work?

The person who has to upgrade may well be in a better financial position that the new build person but expects the neighbours tax to subvent his upgrade work. Would the person think it was appropriate for a subvention to fix his roof if it deteriorated over time?

I think the issue of grants need to be carefully considered and if they are given out they should be subject to a means assessment. It might also be worth considering providing loans to householders through county councils which could be paid back over an extended period of time. This kind of approach was followed by the ESB when it came to funding the insulating of houses. At least then people wouln't have to pay up front and also would have access to funds for the work.

Well I would be the second example as I had to fund the cost of my tank myself as it is only 5 years old and fingers crossed it will be ok. The guy next door has a 20 year old tank and if he needs the grant then I would not begrudge him it.

Comparing a septic tank upgrade with a car due the NCT is a bad example as if the car costs too much to fix it can be scrapped and people can do without a car if they really can't afford it but obviously that isn't an option with a septic tank.

I agree with you about means testing though.

MadsL

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well I would be the second example as I had to fund the cost of my tank myself as it is only 5 years old and fingers crossed it will be ok. The guy next door has a 20 year old tank and if he needs the grant then I would not begrudge him it.

Comparing a septic tank upgrade with a car due the NCT is a bad example as if the car costs too much to fix it can be scrapped and people can do without a car if they really can't afford it but obviously that isn't an option with a septic tank.

I agree with you about means testing though.

When you say "would not begrudge him it." do you mean we should pay for the fact that his tank is now so old that it needs replacing. I just replaced some 30 year old windows, should I have gotten a grant for that? I can't do without windows.

Galwayguy35

MadsL wrote: »

But if the grant is assessed based on the work, what percentage should the householder pay? 50%? 10%? 0%?

Should it be means-tested?

Yes it should be means tested and the householders financial circumstances taken into consideration when deciding that they should contribute.

Obviously the farmer with 100 acres can afford it more than the man/woman living on a half acre site that they bought to build on.

Galwayguy35

MadsL wrote: »

When you say "would not begrudge him it." do you mean we should pay for the fact that his tank is now so old that it needs replacing. I just replaced some 30 year old windows, should I have gotten a grant for that? I can't do without windows.

Silly arguement really, about the windows:rolleyes:

MadsL

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Yes it should be means tested and the householders financial circumstances taken into consideration when deciding that they should contribute.

Obviously the farmer with 100 acres can afford it more than the man/woman living on a half acre site that they bought to build on.

Huh? This isn't the 18th Century. The half-acre could be a retired barrister with a couple of million in the bank.

Galwayguy35

MadsL wrote: »

Huh? This isn't the 18th Century. The half-acre could be a retired barrister with a couple of million in the bank.

Jesus Christ did you not see where I said it should be means tested!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MadsL

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Silly arguement really, about the windows:rolleyes:

Why. It's as much part of the house as is the septic tank. Why should I have to pay for maintenance of my house and then the neighbour gets a grant and pays nothing?

Galwayguy35

MadsL wrote: »

Why. It's as much part of the house as is the septic tank. Why should I have to pay for maintenance of my house and then the neighbour gets a grant and pays nothing?

There is no question the the neighbour would be paying for nothing, you are just making these thing up to suit your arguement, anyway I have to be up for work in four hours so slán.

MadsL

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

There is no question the the neighbour would be paying for nothing, you are just making these thing up to suit your arguement, anyway I have to be up for work in four hours so slán.

Huh? You want more grant money for him...

Galwayguy35

MadsL wrote: »

Huh? You want more grant money for him...

Never said that, so don't put words in my mouth.

A question for you, are you living in Ireland?

solas111

This is not a town versus country issue because the arseholes who thought up the septic tank charge are just as happy to screw urban dwellers with household and water charges along with the extra charge that they levy on rural people.

However, one of the most unfair aspects of the septic tank charge is that it is penalising people who live in rural areas by making them pay for upgrading their systems (which were already checked and passed by the local authority) while a sewerage service is provided free of charge in urban areas. General taxation has paid for the many sewerage schemes that have been built in towns and cities across the country and as a rural dweller who has paid PAYE for over forty years I have made a fair contribution to paying for those schemes. I cannot therefore see the logic of having one law for areas where there is a sewerage scheme and another law for people who have septic tanks.

I agree that many of the tanks need to have work done on them but cannot see the logic of people who would be happy enough to see €50 million spent on an urban sewerage scheme but who blow a gasket at the thought of adequate grants being given to people who have to upgrade their septic tanks.

Many of those urban sewerage schemes are also faulty and contribute as much to water pollution as the septic tanks. Some have inadequate treatment plants and some have none at all and discharge raw sewerage into the sea. Yet those schemes are operated by local authorities, i.e. an arm of the state. Money will be found to upgrade the urban sewerage schemes but I don’t see the users having to pay any part the cost through extra charges.

All that people are looking for here is a fair system which treats people the same, regardless of where they live. Sadly, we have elected a calibre of people to high office, past and present, who are not capable of seeing past their well-paid noses. Even sadder, judging by some of the posts here, many are either too stupid to see or they don’t care about the injustice of it all. It could only happen in Ireland.

MadsL

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Never said that, so don't put words in my mouth.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

€4000 wouldn't last long if a lot of work has to be done.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with their fellow citizens getting some help to get work done.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I said a person wouldn't feel going through that amount.

That would look a lot like you saying €4000k is not enough money, I asked serveral times what amount you think should be given and you are taking offence. What should be the amount of this grant if €4k is not enough and "wouldn't last long"

A question for you, are you living in Ireland?

What's the relevance of that? I've paid 15 years worth of taxes in Ireland and have a daughter attending secondary school in Ireland.

You want to play "if you don't live there" you don't get to comment, is that it?

MadsL

solas111 wrote: »

However, one of the most unfair aspects of the septic tank charge is that it is penalising people who live in rural areas by making them pay for upgrading their systems (which were already checked and passed by the local authority) while a sewerage service is provided free of charge in urban areas.

By that logic every village in Ireland should have a LUAS.

General taxation has paid for the many sewerage schemes that have been built in towns and cities across the country and as a rural dweller who has paid PAYE for over forty years I have made a fair contribution to paying for those schemes. I cannot therefore see the logic of having one law for areas where there is a sewerage scheme and another law for people who have septic tanks.

Rates paid for them, not general taxation.

Again by that logic, I should not have to contribute to the single farm payment because I live in a city.

I agree that many of the tanks need to have work done on them but cannot see the logic of people who would be happy enough to see €50 million spent on an urban sewerage scheme but who blow a gasket at the thought of adequate grants being given to people who have to upgrade their septic tanks.

I think it is more that gasket being blown at people not being prepared to pay a penny towards basic maintainace of their septic systems. If my toilet blocks in the city, should I get a grant to fix it?

Many of those urban sewerage schemes are also faulty and contribute as much to water pollution as the septic tanks. Some have inadequate treatment plants and some have none at all and discharge raw sewerage into the sea. Yet those schemes are operated by local authorities, i.e. an arm of the state. Money will be found to upgrade the urban sewerage schemes but I don’t see the users having to pay any part the cost through extra charges.

So those that do not drive should not contribute to the cost of road maintenance?

All that people are looking for here is a fair system which treats people the same, regardless of where they live.

No-one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. If you want people to be treated the same then you will need to fix house prices so that urban dwellers (who pay more stamp duty) are treated the same as rural dwellers (lower prices less stamp duty)

Even sadder, judging by some of the posts here, many are either too stupid to see or they don’t care about the injustice of it all. It could only happen in Ireland.

You know, calling people who disagree with you stupid is generally frowned on here.

Backfire

MadsL wrote: »

Why. It's as much part of the house as is the septic tank. Why should I have to pay for maintenance of my house and then the neighbour gets a grant and pays nothing?

Because the maintenance of the septic tank is being enforced by law whereas the replacement of windows isn't.

You have the choice of having broken windows or windows that are 'not up to standard' and leaving them that way.

Your NCT comparison is more relevant though as its enforced by law and choice is significantly reduced.

solas111

Madsl, you are obviously carrying a heavy chip on your shoulder about something and nothing that I or anyone else says is going to make any difference so I won’t be wasting my time trying.

Seriously though, lighten up my friend or you will be damaging your health and making life hell for the people you live with.

MadsL

solas111 wrote: »

Madsl, you are obviously carrying a heavy chip on your shoulder about something and nothing that I or anyone else says is going to make any difference so I won’t be wasting my time trying.

Seriously though, lighten up my friend or you will be damaging your health and making life hell for the people you live with.

Wow thanks for the advice, :rolleyes: Great to know you know so much about me, and that someone cares <sniff>

I'm not the only one saying what I'm saying you know.

kormak

I haven't read through 70 pages of 'septic tank talk', but I will give you my 2 cents.

I have a septic out the back which is decades old. I believe it still works as designed but I cannot be sure it passes a test to Phil Hogan's standards. My house is surrounded by agricultural land of which in times passed has had regular slurry spread across it. Some years back my well became contaminated by animal feces and now has dangerous levels of e-coli in my drinking water.

The council did very little to aid my cause bar speaking to the farmer and requesting further distance from my sight.
In the meantime, I've had to spend years warning my kids against drinking the water, until I could afford to have a proper treatment system put in place.
There is no option for mains or group schemes available in my area, so I'm forced to use a well and Yes, there is a grant available which covers part of the payment but not all.

I've been paying tax for well over 10 years which helps fund town/city sewage systems and yet on the back of all of this, I'm now been asked to pay €50 to regsiter my spetic and potentially pay 1000s in repair fees if it fails.
I've no problem having my tank inspected and repaired if needs be, but why do I have to pay €50 for the privilege and why can't the same "tax payers money" be applied to resolve faulty tanks in this instance.

For now, I will continue to not register and not pay.

oscarBravo

kormak wrote: »

I believe it still works as designed but I cannot be sure it passes a test to Phil Hogan's standards.

I used to work in a factory that was built in the 1970s. In the 1990s, the system for scrubbing the chemical fumes that were emitted from the factory's chimneys still worked as designed, but didn't meet the emissions standards of the day.

Do you think the factory should have been exempt from upgrading its pollution control measures to current standards?

MadsL

kormak wrote: »

Yes, there is a grant available which covers part of the payment but not all.

I've been paying tax for well over 10 years which helps fund town/city sewage systems and yet on the back of all of this, I'm now been asked to pay €50 to regsiter my spetic and potentially pay 1000s in repair fees if it fails.
I've no problem having my tank inspected and repaired if needs be, but why do I have to pay €50 for the privilege and why can't the same "tax payers money" be applied to resolve faulty tanks in this instance.

For now, I will continue to not register and not pay.

And by so doing disqualify yourself for a grant and possibly incur fines. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Have you considered taking the farmer to court for the cost of remediation on your well?

kormak

MadsL wrote: »

And by so doing disqualify yourself for a grant and possibly incur fines. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Have you considered taking the farmer to court for the cost of remediation on your well?

Christ, you're an argumentative little so & so! a quick look at the last 3 pages is pretty proof.
Don't think I can be bothered getting involved in cranky tone and "quote war" :rolleyes:

Thargor

Thats about the third one in a row who hasnt been able to come up with an argument for continuing to dump their sewage into the water supply resorting to just calling people cranky or questioning their nationality or level of wealth.

Whats the council not paying repairs for a neighbouring farmer damaging your well got to do with it anyway? Its a completely seperate issue, its like me saying I dont have to pay to bring my car up to NCT standards because our house was burgled a few years ago and the Guards didnt do anything about it.

MadsL

kormak wrote: »

Christ, you're an argumentative little so & so! a quick look at the last 3 pages is pretty proof.
Don't think I can be bothered getting involved in cranky tone and "quote war" :rolleyes:

I love people who claim that because someone takes an opposite viewpoint on a discussion board that they are argumentative. Perhaps there is a facebook page somewhere better suited to you where someone won't point out that your principled "won't pay" actually means you will end up paying more.

As to your farmer neighbour - why have you not bothered to take him to court?

Big C

Feb 1 coming up fast, Thinking of reg septic tank. Like previous posts my septic was their for 20 yrs, it works but thats all I know about it, I live in very rural area, old council cottage third acre of land, septic tank is about 100yds from house. Reason I presume it works is because I havent been near it in years, problem is I am confined to a wheelchair (MS). I think if it is inspected it will not pass and will be the max cost to put right, maybe €15000, ok I will get €4000 grant but I dont have the balance. I have paid my taxes up to the MS takin over when I left work. I am not looking for sympathy but where do they think I will get €10,000 out of my disabilty pension The only reason I might register my tank is what they could do next ie if I ever tried to sell my house cud I have to pay an extra (what ever amount they come up with for registering after Feb 1st). So between new prop tax and septic tank sh*t I hope bertie and brian and the rest of the *********. I'l stopp here before I get really annoyed.

creedp

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Comparing a septic tank upgrade with a car due the NCT is a bad example as if the car costs too much to fix it can be scrapped and people can do without a car if they really can't afford it but obviously that isn't an option with a septic tank.

Very few people in rural locations survive without a car these days .. not that easy to survive if you work and have kids. My real issue here is that a grant scheme will be abused just like many other previous schemes that is why I would prefer a loan scheme with a low/zero interest rate and a long payback period. Having said that farmers got up to 60% grants to upgrade their slurry tanks and that wasn't means tested so why should domestic tanks be treated any different?

flutered

n97 mini wrote: »

And again, a bit of perspective needed. Someone posting on an internet forum claiming they burnt rubbish in an open fire in a house. Eh, prolly not really high priority for our law enforcement agencies.

a nice big buissnes near me burns industrial waste each wedensday and saturday, the council does not in msdls words give a flying flutered, so people think that they will have a go at some one using an old fireplace are i think delusioned.

flutered

Big C wrote: »

Feb 1 coming up fast, Thinking of reg septic tank. Like previous posts my septic was their for 20 yrs, it works but thats all I know about it, I live in very rural area, old council cottage third acre of land, septic tank is about 100yds from house. Reason I presume it works is because I havent been near it in years, problem is I am confined to a wheelchair (MS). I think if it is inspected it will not pass and will be the max cost to put right, maybe €15000, ok I will get €4000 grant but I dont have the balance. I have paid my taxes up to the MS takin over when I left work. I am not looking for sympathy but where do they think I will get €10,000 out of my disabilty pension The only reason I might register my tank is what they could do next ie if I ever tried to sell my house cud I have to pay an extra (what ever amount they come up with for registering after Feb 1st). So between new prop tax and septic tank sh*t I hope bertie and brian and the rest of the *********. I'l stopp here before I get really annoyed.

i am in the same boat as you, instead of ms i have cancer, NO way will i regester anything, or for anything as a matter of fact i have got a small engined car which i have great difficulty with, my auto 4x4 is now idle as i have not got a notion or the money to tax a 2.0ltr vehicle.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

And by so doing disqualify yourself for a grant and possibly incur fines. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.



why have you not taken the principle of the thing into account.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

Have you considered taking the farmer to court for the cost of remediation on your well?

probably he cannot afford the high powered experts required to get a conviction, if the council recon it is a lost cause what hope has the op.

flutered

MadsL wrote: »

When you say "would not begrudge him it." do you mean we should pay for the fact that his tank is now so old that it needs replacing. I just replaced some 30 year old windows, should I have gotten a grant for that? I can't do without windows.

i recon you would/could get a grant

MadsL

flutered wrote: »

i recon you would/could get a grant

From where????