Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower

zerks wrote: »

It's not mentioned anywhere there.Did you read it?

Yes.

zerks wrote: »

Ah,your original post said page 34.A lot of that stuff is from proposals put forward by the government and not actually from the IMF.

The property tax is agreed with the EU/IMF. like any other item, it could be renegotiated, but, as it stands, it is part of the agreement.

MOU wrote:

The government will provide a draft budget for 2012 aiming to further reduce the general government deficit in line with the National Recovery Plan and the programme and including the detailed presentation of consolidation measures amounting to at least €3.6bn.
- Revenue measures to yield €1,500m2 in a full year will be introduced, including:
- A lowering of personal income tax bands and credits.
- A reduction in private pension tax reliefs.
- A reduction in general tax expenditures.
- A property tax.
- A reform of capital gains tax and acquisitions tax.
- An increase in the carbon tax

For people who think it will increase in future years, the MOU has it increasing next year

Actions for the eighth review (actions to be completed by end Q4-2012)
i. Fiscal consolidation
The government will provide a draft budget for 2013 aiming at a further reduction of the general government deficit in line with the 4-year plan and the programme and including the detailed presentation of consolidation measures amounting to at least €3,100m.
- Revenue measures to raise at least €1,100m3 in the full year will be introduced, including:
- A lowering of personal income tax bands and credits.
- A reduction in private pension tax relief.
- A reduction in general tax expenditures.
- An increase in property tax.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

Yes.


The property tax is agreed with the EU/IMF. like any other item, it could be renegotiated, but, as it stands, it is part of the agreement.



For people who think it will increase in future years, the MOU has it increasing next year

I, personally, don't remember agreeing anything with the EU/IMF!

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

For people who think it will increase in future years, the MOU has it increasing next year

It will be over 300 euro next year.
You'll see plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth from those registered by the next budget.

THE PROPOSED PROPERTY tax will raise around €500 million in annual revenue, three times more than the new household charge will bring in, the Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said.


Although the household charge has yet to come into effect plans are already in the works for the new property tax to replace the flat payment of €100 annually which will fall due in the New Year and is expected to raise €160 million for the Exchequer.


The rates of the new property tax will be determined by an expert group to begin work in January and expected to make recommendations within three to four months. Although it will be a graduated tax, the Irish Indepdendent reports that it will cost households €312.50 each on average.

http://www.thejournal.ie/property-tax-will-raise-around-e500m-taoiseach-312372-Dec2011/

dxhound2005

I predict that over 50% will pay by the deadline. I'm including most of the 340,000 people who already pay the NPPR and who are also liable for the Household Charge. It would be totally illogical for them to pay the €200 charge and then defy the law for the €100. My experience of human nature when it comes to handing over money is that we do it with great reluctance and refrain from doing so until the last moment possible in most cases. The most astonishing thing to me is that tens of thousands have already parted with their money weeks ahead of the deadline. Just because we are half way to the deadline doesn't mean half of people should have paid already.

BTW SIPTU came out in favour of a property tax to replace the Household Charge. And if the campaign was to suceed and the Government was to fall the Socialist Party have a wealth tax lined up if they get into power. At their next protest meeting maybe someone could raise that issue. Forget about Sinn Fein, not 20 miles from me their councillors are operating a property tax.

Cantona's Collars

The household charge site wants anyone who is exempt to register aswell in order for them to qualify for the exemption.:rolleyes:
Creating a database for future use as far as I can see.

BTW,the list of exemptions has categories 1-4 but we can only see category 3 & 4 on that list,who falls into numbers 1 & 2?

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

At 40% that would require 536,000 to pay between now and the first week in March.
That's 28,000 a day.
Not gonna happen

I wouldn't put too much store in the low numbers who have paid so far. It just doesn't make much sense for anyone to be paying a bill months before it falls due. I would say that if the numbers are at anything below 20% by the end of March, then the tax could be dead in the water.

I'm not sure what doing the per day calculation adds to the arguement - unless you think the payment system couldn't handle the volume?

Slick50

Allround Predator wrote: »

I don't want to pay it, but I guess I'll have to when I'm the only person In Ireland left who hasn't payed it!

I'll pay your's before I pay mine, and that's not gona happen, so you can rest assured you won't be the last to pay.

Of the 96k that have paid, 20k plus "have" to, ie. gardai and members of the defence forces are obliged by their terms of employment. Plus the friends and family of government who all ran out to register a.s.a.p. to give the impression of enthusiastic public support.

If you take these into account, about four percent of the general public have registered. The more media coverage this fact gets, the less likely it is that people will panic and give in.

This turkey looks done for.

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

It will be over 300 euro next year.
You'll see plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth from those registered by the next budget.

It probably won't go that high until they have the property tax in place. After that, I can see it going way past €300.

I also don't think any Government could sustain large increases in a tax that has low compliance rates.

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not sure what doing the per day calculation adds to the arguement - unless you think the payment system couldn't handle the volume?

It paints an unbelievable picture of 28,000 people a day logging on, filling out the online form, then processing a payment of 100 Euro from their pocket.
Broken down in that way........ it seems highly improbable.

This is not U2 tickets we are talking about here.

Ogham

zerks wrote: »

The household charge site wants anyone who is exempt to register aswell in order for them to qualify for the exemption.:rolleyes:
Creating a database for future use as far as I can see.

BTW,the list of exemptions has categories 1-4 but we can only see category 3 & 4 on that list,who falls into numbers 1 & 2?

If it is the unfinished estates "waiver" you are talking about - only those on the lists provided are to be given a waiver. The lists are only the category 3 & 4 estates. The 1 &2 estates are to pay the same as everyone - there is no lists of those.
See a better explanation here http://www.moneyguideireland.com/list-of-unfinished-estates-exempt-from-household-charge.html

dvpower

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I predict that over 50% will pay by the deadline. I'm including most of the 340,000 people who already pay the NPPR and who are also liable for the Household Charge. It would be totally illogical for them to pay the €200 charge and then defy the law for the €100.

I agree with this to a point. But if people sense that the tax is going to fall, they might be willing to hold off payment for a few months to see how the land lies.

Ogham

dvpower wrote: »

It probably won't go that high until they have the property tax in place. After that, I can see it going way past €300.

I also don't think any Government could sustain large increases in a tax that has low compliance rates.

Could be as high as €675 for houses worth 150K to 300k - more here ,...

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-how-much-will-it-be.html

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

It paints an unbelievable picture of 28,000 people a day logging on, filling out the online form, then processing a payment of 100 Euro from their pocket.
Broken down in that way........ it seems highly improbable.

I can see massive numbers of people doing just that in the last couple of weeks of March, after payday and before the deadline.

squod

dxhound2005 wrote: »

BTW SIPTU came out in favour of a property tax to replace the Household Charge. And if the campaign was to suceed and the Government was to fall the Socialist Party have a wealth tax lined up if they get into power. At their next protest meeting maybe someone could raise that issue. Forget about Sinn Fein, not 20 miles from me their councillors are operating a property tax.

Wrong.

THE country's largest trade union has called on the Government to drop the €100 household charge until a fully fledged and fair property tax is imposed.

Fair. He said fair. This charge is far from fair and they way people are being treated generally is not fair IMO. People will be paying hundreds if not thousands in property taxes and receiving less for their money than they have been before the tax was introduced.

Feck all countries in the world pay a property tax. Northern Ireland is one of the very few who do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

I can see massive numbers of people doing just that in the last couple of weeks of March, after payday and before the deadline.

Time will tell.
Remember, those figures are just to get to 40% compliance.

Posts will be stored in the bank marked "humble pie/I told you so" until then.

dvpower wrote: »

But if people sense that the tax is going to fall, they might be willing to hold off payment for a few months to see how the land lies.

Hold off for a year and see what the next budget brings is what many are doing.

squod

It is expected 1.6 million homes will have to pay the tax with around a 250,000 households exempted – the Government believes it will raise €160m annually.

Those who registered so far are probably mostly those who are ''exempt''.
250,000 is an awful lot of households. The working poor are probably worse of than most of them.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I predict that over 50% will pay by the deadline. I'm including most of the 340,000 people who already pay the NPPR and who are also liable for the Household Charge. It would be totally illogical for them to pay the €200 charge and then defy the law for the €100. My experience of human nature when it comes to handing over money is that we do it with great reluctance and refrain from doing so until the last moment possible in most cases. The most astonishing thing to me is that tens of thousands have already parted with their money weeks ahead of the deadline. Just because we are half way to the deadline doesn't mean half of people should have paid already.

BTW SIPTU came out in favour of a property tax to replace the Household Charge. And if the campaign was to suceed and the Government was to fall the Socialist Party have a wealth tax lined up if they get into power. At their next protest meeting maybe someone could raise that issue. Forget about Sinn Fein, not 20 miles from me their councillors are operating a property tax.

Wrong here also.

Your getting confused with rates, not a property tax.
Don't say its the same thing. Its not.

My parents don't pay for bin collections, they don't pay fifty to sixty quid to see a doctor, an average prescription (of any course) is roughly three pounds give or take, if they were unlucky enough to have to call for a fire engine or ambulance, they wouldn't face a charge for doing so.

Take the greyhound row in Dublin at the minute as a classic example.
Grey hound are threatening not to collect householders rubbish in Dublin unless they sign up, and pay a one hundred euro service charge. Anyone paying greyhound, and paying the household charge have paid twice for the same service.

It simply doesn't make sense, and the pro payment people simply have no argument!

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Posts will be stored in the bank marked "humble pie/I told you so" until then.

I'll go easy on you:)

mikom wrote: »

Hold off for a year and see what the next budget brings is what many are doing.

Probably true. If people haven't paid by the deadline, they've already opened themselves to late fees, so they're probably reasonably committed to non payment.
But unless the level of non compliance is very low, I just can't see the Government folding - if they fold on this, its the beginning of the end for them imo.

Denis and Eileen Kingston

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

Ghandee

Denis and Eileen Kingston wrote: »

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

:pac:

Phill Ewinn

Denis and Eileen Kingston wrote: »

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

D'oh. Don't pay now and the tax will fail as it always has done.

dvpower

Denis and Eileen Kingston wrote: »

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

You'd have to wait 'till much later to be paying twice. If I wanted to hedge my bets and hold off for a year, it'll cost me only €32 in interest and late fees. Put that bet against the chance of the Government refunding people who do pay if they eventually scrap the tax.

It's not much of an incentive tbh.

Late payment penalties
Late payment interest and fees will apply if you do not pay the charge in time. Interest will be calculated at 1% per month or part of a month. Late payment fees will be charged as follows:

Up to 6 months after due date: 10% of the amount outstanding
Between 6 and 12 months after due date: 20% of the amount outstanding
Over 12 months after due date: 30% of the amount outstanding

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

Wrong here also.

Your getting confused with rates, not a property tax.
Don't say its the same thing. Its not.

My parents don't pay for bin collections, they don't post fifty to sixty wood to see a doctor, an average prescription (of any course) is roughly three pounds give or take, if they were unlucky enough to have to call for a fire engine or ambulance, they wouldn't face a charge for doing so.

Take the greyhound row in Dublin at the minute as a classic example.
Grey hound are threatening not to collect householders rubbish in Dublin unless they sign up, and pay a one hundred euro service charge. Anyone paying greyhound, and paying the household charge have paid twice for the same service.

It simply doesn't make sense, and the pro payment people simply have no argument!

Yes but the rate is set by reference to the property. I pay about €270 per year at the moment for refuse collection, I pay nothing else. A friend I know in Co Armagh pays £2100 (he has a nice big house) to the Sinn Fein dominated Newry and Mourne District Council. All the anti bin campaigns have failed in the long run and we are all now paying for a privatised service. This is the outworking of the decision in the 1970's to abolish rates here and try to pay for everything from income tax.

mikom

Denis and Eileen Kingston wrote: »

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

Yes, Daddy Denis.

Who the hell posts with their family name ( if true)?

gerryo777

Denis and Eileen Kingston wrote: »

Pay now or you'll pay twice as much later

First post and it sounds like a threat!
Someone have a word...

gerryo777

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Yes but the rate is set by reference to the property. I pay about €270 per year at the moment for refuse collection, I pay nothing else. A friend I know in Co Armagh pays £2100 (he has a nice big house) to the Sinn Fein dominated Newry and Mourne District Council. All the anti bin campaigns have failed in the long run and we are all now paying for a privatised service. This is the outworking of the decision in the 1970's to abolish rates here and try to pay for everything from income tax.

Bin rates in North County Dublin; 1 black bin a week + registration =€552.00 per year.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Yes but the rate is set by reference to the property. I pay about €270 per year at the moment for refuse collection, I pay nothing else. A friend I know in Co Armagh pays £2100 (he has a nice big house) to the Sinn Fein dominated Newry and Mourne District Council. All the anti bin campaigns have failed in the long run and we are all now paying for a privatised service. This is the outworking of the decision in the 1970's to abolish rates here and try to pay for everything from income tax.

Well, you pay much higher road tax, you pay to see a doctor, you pay to go to A&E etc, you have tolled roads to contend with, prescription charges from the chemist are extortionate, ambulance/fire service charges, it goes on and on.

I reckon I pay about two grand a year on tolls here, never mind my car tax (€580) I know its my fault, but my job sees me commute to Dublin airport from Naas and back again, and usually in and out of the port tunnel once a day. (no choice due to the nature of my job)

We pay twice for a lot of services here imo.

Ogham

squod wrote: »

Those who registered so far are probably mostly those who are ''exempt''.
250,000 is an awful lot of households. The working poor are probably worse of than most of them.

Exemptions or Waivers (250000 approx)
18000 on Mortgage Interest Supplement (have to register)
108000 Local AUthority houses (don't have to register)
25000 non profit Housing Body Properties (don't have to register)
34000 on unfinished estates (have to register)
Estimated 100k vacant houses exempt because part of the stock of a business and never been lived in since built. (don't have to register)

From http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

gerryo777

Ogham wrote: »

Exemptions or Waivers (250000 approx)
18000 on Mortgage Interest Supplement (have to register)
108000 Local AUthority houses (don't have to register)
25000 non profit Housing Body Properties (don't have to register)
34000 on unfinished estates (have to register)
Estimated 100k vacant houses exempt because part of the stock of a business and never been lived in since built. (don't have to register)

From http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

I still can't understand how people in rental accommodation are exempt.
That's discriminating against homeowners.
This tax is supposed to pay for local services that everyone uses.

Am Chile

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I predict that over 50% will pay by the deadline. I'm including most of the 340,000 people who already pay the NPPR and who are also liable for the Household Charge. It would be totally illogical for them to pay the €200 charge and then defy the law for the €100. My experience of human nature when it comes to handing over money is that we do it with great reluctance and refrain from doing so until the last moment possible in most cases. The most astonishing thing to me is that tens of thousands have already parted with their money weeks ahead of the deadline. Just because we are half way to the deadline doesn't mean half of people should have paid already.

BTW SIPTU came out in favour of a property tax to replace the Household Charge. And if the campaign was to suceed and the Government was to fall the Socialist Party have a wealth tax lined up if they get into power. At their next protest meeting maybe someone could raise that issue. Forget about Sinn Fein, not 20 miles from me their councillors are operating a property tax.

For anyone who thinks its gonna be easy for the goverment to Implement this, remember its not just this one tax, its three they re trying to Implement, household tax/property tax, water tax, septic tank tax, they have already backtracked on the registration fee for septic tanks from €50 to just €5, if there was no campaign of opposition to these new taxes we would not of seen a climbdown for septic tank fee,in the past week alone there has been big protests in carlow,wexford and a big protest outside waterford city council when a motion waterford city council is against the household tax was passed by 9/6.I hope everyone here remembers the last anti water charges campaign, good luck to the goverment to try and Implement all three new taxes without public oppostion from ordinary people.