Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

golfwallah

plasmaguy wrote: »

I feel sorry for some people genuinely on the breadline.

But the vast majority can afford 100 euro, don't be kidding yourself. Perhaps a few hundred thousand will struggle.

But when I see people with plenty of money, can splash it out saturday night in the pub, can go on 2 or 3 holidays a year, skiing, summer holiday, EuroDisney, match at Old Trafford, rugby matches at the Avivia, and so on and so forth, and these same people say they aren't paying it or can't afford it, it's hard to take them seriously. And we all know such people, if I know them, which I do, then everyone knows them. These people won't pay because it might mean having to missing a game at the Aviva between Leinster and someone. Oh the horror.

Couldn't agree more with you.

Was in Kildare Street (where Leinster House is) on Wednesday, 29th Feb last, at the same time as the "protest march" to the Dail against the household charge. You couldn't get into Buswell's Hotel across the street from the Dail, for all the protesters inside drinking pints, cups of tea / coffee and eating sandwiches and the like.

Sure, it was all a great bit of gas!

Where would these poor folk find the few bob to pay household charges?

dxhound2005

Am Chile wrote: »

Just a moments reflection, a few months ago it was reported in the Irish Independent hundreds haven,t paid nor registered for the second home tax and not tracked down, if the goverment can track people via esb bills/records one would of thought they would of done so long ago and tracked those not paying nor registered for the second home tax via esb bills/records.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-escape-secondhome-tax-2913935.html

The article says that 340,000 have registered and paid so as I said earlier in the thread it would seem illogical that those same people would now refuse to pay €100 after paying €200. The ones that haven't registered and paid now owe something like €1700 rising by €60 per month for each property (instead of paying €600 over the last three years). The NPPR as with the Household Charge will not allow any of these houses to change hands without all charges being paid. So if these are not caught when the Property Tax database is compiled they will be caught whenever the properties are sold or bequeathed.

plasmaguy

Here are the figures on the current account for January - February 2012.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/excheqstatfeb.pdf

2.2 billion of a deficit for the first two months on the current account, similar to last year. So probably about 15 billion deficit for the year. Still a significant amount that needs to be reduced asap.

vixdname

pjmn wrote: »

... don't think that personal abuse is called for - whether a person decides to pay this tax (and/or any other tax) is a matter for them to decide - having decided to pay, I didn't abuse anyone who chose not to... all I did was answer the thread question, no more, no less... :rolleyes:

It isnt personal abuse, its simply and analogy on the action you have done in registering and paying for this charge.
By doing so, you have gone against the vast majority of people in the country who are not registering for this sham tax and shown yourself to be one of those people that are only too willing to do everything and believe everything the powers that be tell them to do.
There has always been and will always be people like you who wont stand up to the government when they are CLEARLY WRONG in what they are doing to the citizens of this country.
If everyone took your approach, imagine where this country would be today ?

smash

plasmaguy wrote: »

Please try to keep this discussion reasonable as opposed to scare mongering and using phrases like big bad bondholders or the like.

I believe you're the one saying that, not me.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Bondholders kept this country from going to the wall in recent years and will do long into the future. It's not their fault as a nation we can't live within our means and are forced to borrow.

Unsecured bond holders also funded Anglo, which no longer exists and that's who we're paying back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCHu1kRT6hU

plasmaguy wrote: »

Banning borrowing would solve nothing to be honest. Or is it just free money you want from everyone else?

are you making up conversations now? Because I didn't say that either...

I've said before and I'll say it again, this tax will make nothing for the government, they'll recoup a minority of what they lost thought the silly co2 motor tax, which they plan on reversing in the next budget anyway to screw us again. And then they'll up the household tax.

hiram

plasmaguy wrote: »

Logic or emotion?

Logically you don't have a leg to stand on, if you understood the situation this country is in.

The Greeks tried to give the IMF two fingers and it got them precisely nowhere.

The IMF have never ever given nothing for free or without conditions.

The property tax is one condition.

Actually, Its Logical...you have paid havent you? Pity, we need people with backbones to deal with the situation the Country is in.

barrackali

golfwallah wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with you.

Was in Kildare Street (where Leinster House is) on Wednesday, 29th Feb last, at the same time as the "protest march" to the Dail against the household charge. You couldn't get into Buswell's Hotel across the street from the Dail, for all the protesters inside drinking pints, cups of tea / coffee and eating sandwiches and the like.

Sure, it was all a great bit of gas!

Where would these poor folk find the few bob to pay household charges?

But they will be paying, the country is billions in debt and the gov are obliged to introduce this charge under the EU/IMF deal. The sooner people realise this the better. The property boom is the biggest reason we are in this hole, annual property taxes are a great disincentive to property speculation.

TreesAreCrowd

hiram wrote: »

Welcome to Boards, but I think you are a wee bit late jumping on the bandwagon..... 2% have just paid.....thats a lot of harsh examples to be set!!:D:D:cool:

It certainly is a lot of harsh examples to be set and I hope the government have the fortitude to do it.

They're going to get the money one way or another, the country is broke and it's about time that people realised that and got on board, or f*cked off somewhere else. Let the charge collapse, I don't particularly care, but you've only yourselves to blame when more drastic measures are taken to get the money in, in another way.

plasmaguy

smash wrote: »

I believe you're the one saying that, not me.


Unsecured bond holders also funded Anglo, which no longer exists and that's who we're paying back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCHu1kRT6hU

are you making up conversations now? Because I didn't say that either...

I've said before and I'll say it again, this tax will make nothing for the government, they'll recoup a minority of what they lost thought the silly co2 motor tax, which they plan on reversing in the next budget anyway to screw us again. And then they'll up the household tax.

Would you agree at least there are good and bad bondholders, the good ones being those who help us bridge our current account gap, the bad ones those who lent to Anglo and the sort.

Do you object to us paying back the good bondholders? We owe them a lot of money as well you know.

zumi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXIIieaQf-w

Pass it around folks, share on Facebook.

smash

plasmaguy wrote: »

Would you agree at least there are good and bad bondholders, the good ones being those who help us bridge our current account gap, the bad ones those who lent to Anglo and the sort.

If people didn't realise this they'd have to have a seriously low IQ.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Do you object to us paying back the good bondholders? We owe them a lot of money as well you know.

Why would anyone object to that? What people object to is the fact that we have to borrow to pay the unsecured bond holders who entered into an agreement with a private company and lost their bet.

However, in saying all that. For all we know, all these bond holders are probably the same people. As a result, taxes are brig imposed on our personal belongings now. Belongings that most of us already paid an extortionate amount of tax on.

plasmaguy

zumi wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXIIieaQf-w

Pass it around folks, share on Facebook.

God knows what it is, I won't be watching, probably more of the anti tax tripe.

As has been said repeatedly and ad nausiam, there is a huge difference in what we spend and take in, which can only be filled by more borrowing which will be paid back with interest, which is stupid in my opinion, or by raising taxes until we finally get out of the mess, which we will, if everyone keeps a cool head and not be hot headed like the greeks and refuse to pay this tax and that tax.

Borrowing is in no way a long term solution.

But trying to get sense into the heads of the anti property tax brigade is probably a waste of time at the end of the day. They only think of themselves for the most part, it's always "I'm not paying it, I won't pay, I this, I that". Me first, country second. But what do we expect, that's the majority view in this country which got us into the mess in the first place. As long as I don't pay, that's the important thing.

The very same people who voted FF and PDs no doubt make up a large number of those who refuse to pay, probably saying things like I didnt cause this mess, I was a socialist all along.

No wonder we're a basket case.

dvpower

hiram wrote: »

Welcome to Boards, but I think you are a wee bit late jumping on the bandwagon..... 2% have just paid.....thats a lot of harsh examples to be set!!:D:D:cool:

What figure is that?

plasmaguy

smash wrote: »

If people didn't realise this they'd have to have a seriously low IQ.


Why would anyone object to that? What people object to is the fact that we have to borrow to pay the unsecured bond holders who entered into an agreement with a private company and lost their bet.

However, in saying all that. For all we know, all these bond holders are probably the same people. As a result, taxes are brig imposed on our personal belongings now. Belongings that most of us already paid an extortionate amount of tax on.

Yeh will there are some good bondholders who have been reliable supporters for Ireland for decades, and really we want to keep those on side and pay them back.

Mr CJ

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

It's irrelevant if it's not paid, the money will be taken out in another form. This is all budgeted out and the money has to be found, so it will be and simply not paying one charge isn't going to stop that.

I hope the non-payers are dealt with accordingly and quite frankly, harshly. An example needs to be set.

Another example of closed mindedness and lacking a huge amount of cop on!!

I am sick of this conversation... it is not the €100 that is the problem here I can pay that like many of the NO people no problem, the major problem is we are being screwed again to pay of debts caused by people who are walking around scot free without a care in the world while we are being threatened with fines etc and the fact that the government are changing the laws so they can legally rob us from our bit of money that we make.

It would answer them better to change the law to sort out our ridiculous justice system for example but no, they will only act when it suits them!!

The ones who support this get all offended when called morons, fools, cowards etc what else would you call someone who gives a blank cheque to someone or signs an open ended contract without asking questions to people laughing all the way and given themselves pay rises and claiming crazy expenses?? Under other circumstances it would be funny... I just cant fathom what is going on inside some of the supporters brains or even what frame of mind there in.

They have to get money agreed well fck off away from us and put your thinking caps on! For christ sake we need to increase expenditure to support our economy can you not see this??????????????????

For starters the 2 black holes in the state are prisons and social welfare, tackle these things first properly and billions can be saved! Get rid of incentives not to work and for unmarried mothers having more and more babies.

I mean am I the only one that sees this as being bonkers??

What options seem good?????

Option 1
You do things thats suppose to be proper, seek employment, get married have children and be hounded the rest of your life from revenue.

Option 2
Dont bother your hole working be a waster, happy days recieve a pay cheque from the state, then dont bother getting married have a few babies here and there great more money from the state, and wait we are not finished... yes the state will give you a house or they will pay for your rent what more can you ask for??

INSANE!!! These are the things that needs to be nipped in the bud, the waste of money here is beyond believe.

With these kind of systems in place they have the nerve to come looking to get money of us??? Clean up the mess first and sort out these things, if the government need money after the clean up I will gladly pay a property charge!!

hiram

dvpower wrote: »

What figure is that?

A figure from my brother, who works for the collection body. only 2% have paid, more have registered, but thats for non compliance,...He reckons its a non runner.

squod

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

I hope the non-payers are dealt with accordingly and quite frankly, harshly. An example needs to be set.

Bailing out Anglo is economic treason says An Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore

Example?

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

It certainly is a lot of harsh examples to be set and I hope the government have the fortitude to do it.

They should take a look at this.

Ms Burton says all those who sat around the Cabinet table of the last government need to come before a Dáil inquiry to answer questions about what happened.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0425/economy.html

smash

zumi wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXIIieaQf-w

Pass it around folks, share on Facebook.

I don't like the household tax, but I won't be passing that nonsense around. It's one of the worst put together productions I've watched in a long time.

golfwallah

You can’t expect elected representatives to solve the country’s problems and, at the same time, keep putting barriers in their way at every turn while they are working to achieve that very objective.

Our elected representatives come from amongst us – they have no magic wands or ability to wish away problems. And it’s unrealistic to expect them to look for permission from the electorate on every method they choose to raise taxes (even though I, too, wish these taxes would just go away).

Household Charges have been debated in the Dail and passed into law by the representatives we put into office barely a year ago. The next step is to pay up - that's how democracy works!

I lived in England for a few years and had to pay substantial local charges, for water and other council services. Don’t understand how so many in Ireland expect these services for free.

The reality is that Ireland has gotten itself up to its eyes in debt. And we have to re-pay this debt somehow – the alternative, of default, will eliminate our ability to borrow. And we will have ongoing needs for borrowing for years to come, before we can get our spending more in line with our income – that’s if people want to continue to get Government Services, Social Welfare, etc.

People need to get real!

Who among the people saying they won’t pay household charge, would lend to someone who defaulted on debts?

Not many, I think. So why should external lenders continue to lend us their money with no hope of re-payment?

TreesAreCrowd

Mr CJ wrote: »

Another example of closed mindedness and lacking a huge amount of cop on!!

Sorry but I've no interest in entering conversation with someone who believes the following:

lately they are really showing there true colours, I actually thought id never say this but I think these guys are worse than FF!!

What a crock of ****. Don't bother addressing me in future.

plasmaguy

Mr CJ wrote: »

Another example of closed mindedness and lacking a huge amount of cop on!!

I am sick of this conversation... it is not the €100 that is the problem here I can pay that like many of the NO people no problem, the major problem is we are being screwed again to pay of debts caused by people who are walking around scot free without a care in the world while we are being threatened with fines etc and the fact that the government are changing the laws so they can legally rob us from our bit of money that we make.

It would answer them better to change the law to sort out our ridiculous justice system for example but no, they will only act when it suits them!!

The ones who support this get all offended when called morons, fools, cowards etc what else would you call someone who gives a blank cheque to someone or signs an open ended contract without asking questions to people laughing all the way and given themselves pay rises and claiming crazy expenses?? Under other circumstances it would be funny... I just cant fathom what is going on inside some of the supporters brains or even what frame of mind there in.

They have to get money agreed well fck off away from us and put your thinking caps on! For christ sake we need to increase expenditure to support our economy can you not see this??????????????????

For starters the 2 black holes in the state are prisons and social welfare, tackle these things first properly and billions can be saved! Get rid of incentives not to work and for unmarried mothers having more and more babies.

I mean am I the only one that sees this as being bonkers??

What options seem good?????

Option 1
You do things thats suppose to be proper, seek employment, get married have children and be hounded the rest of your life from revenue.

Option 2
Dont bother your hole working be a waster, happy days recieve a pay cheque from the state, then dont bother getting married have a few babies here and there great more money from the state, and wait we are not finished... yes the state will give you a house or they will pay for your rent what more can you ask for??

INSANE!!! These are the things that needs to be nipped in the bud, the waste of money here beyond believe.

With these kind of systems in place and they come looking to get money of us??? Clean up the mess first and sort out these things, if the government need money after these ideas I will gladly pay a property charge!!

I seriously think you need to look at the bigger picture and take the blinkers off and stop thinking about yourself.

Yes we were all screwed but again it's a seperate issue. The main issue is we are running an annual deficit. I know it's monotonous and repetitive and people prefer to get excited and focus on rogue developers and Bertie and all that and then say that's why I'm not paying.

The principle of replacing the unreliable stamp duty tax with a more reliable property tax is a sound principle and has to be welcomed. It should have been brought in decades ago, that's the real mistake to be honest. Every other European country for the most part brought it in years ago, we should have done the same, it would have been a major step in the right direction then.

The timing of this property tax is terrible and the sad thing is it was forced on us, when in reality we should have brought in voluntarily decades ago. Ah but we were the wild west, no-one could tell us what to do.

smash

Mr CJ wrote: »

Option 1
You do things thats suppose to be proper, seek employment, get married have children and be hounded the rest of your life from revenue.

Option 2
Dont bother your hole working be a waster, happy days recieve a pay cheque from the state, then dont bother getting married have a few babies here and there great more money from the state, and wait we are not finished... yes the state will give you a house or they will pay for your rent what more can you ask for??

If you want to be taken seriously then stay on topic and keep your old fashioned catholic beliefs out of the debate ffs.

dvpower

hiram wrote: »

A figure from my brother, who works for the collection body. only 2% have paid, more have registered, but thats for non compliance,...He reckons its a non runner.

Lie.

Eire.

Am I Fcuk!

TreesAreCrowd

dvpower wrote: »

Lie.

According to news sources 200k of the 1.6m eligible households have paid the charge, so 12.5%.

Mr CJ

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

Sorry but I've no interest in entering conversation with someone who believes the following:



What a crock of ****. Don't bother addressing me in future.

Hang on a sec... over the last year with respect to our conditions I have seen absolutely nothing different with these guys compared to FF. They are giving themselves unjustified pay rises already (would FF do this under current conditions??) They are also being smug and showing the arrogance of FF.

Before you make any other comments, I always seen FF's corrupt behaviour way before the boom yet the majority continued voting them in. Now I see the exact same again if not worse!

squod

golfwallah wrote: »

You can’t expect elected representatives to solve the country’s problems and, at the same time, keep putting barriers in their way at every turn while they are working to achieve that very objective.

The property tax will raise inflation.

golfwallah wrote: »

Our elected representatives come from amongst us

In fact a lot of them are career civil servants and well used to the cushy number of being in opposition for so long.

golfwallah wrote: »

I lived in England for a few years and had to pay substantial local charges, for water and other council services. Don’t understand how so many in Ireland expect these services for free.

That's a council tax. A tax I'm willing to pay if it's done correctly and I can afford to pay it. The government want money for nothing. Difference?

golfwallah wrote: »

The reality is that Ireland has gotten itself up to its eyes in debt.

The reality is the country was sold out by the previous administration.

golfwallah wrote: »

Not many, I think. So why should external lenders continue to lend us their money with no hope of re-payment?

Without a stable economy no-one will lend to us. Would you lend money to some country that owes ~ €160bn to bankers and who can't even pay back it's own central bank?

golfwallah wrote: »

.

People need to get real!

I think you need to take your own advice.

Mr CJ

smash wrote: »

If you want to be taken seriously then stay on topic and keep your old fashioned catholic beliefs out of the debate ffs.

This is funny... stay on topic?? This is exactly the reason why we are fukd today.
Old fashioned catholic beliefs???? Did I mention anything about catholicism or beliefs?? I could not care less how people decide to live.

The point I am making is the incredible waste of money, if this was sorted years ago we would not be as bad as we are today and may not be a need for massive tax hikes. How you think this is irrelevant is confusing to me...

plasmaguy

I reckon there will be a last minute rush to pay as people panic.

I hope the government impose the fines and enforce them.

It's a cornerstone of democracy, that a democratic government can impose any tax it sees fit for the overall good of the country and its future, as opposed to the personal good of some people who refuse to pay.

Refusal to pay any tax to revenue is a serious matter and fundamentally undermines the state.

We lost our soverignty in the last few years precisely becaue we weren't able to raise enough taxes or run ourselves properly.

The only way we can regain the soverignty is by showing the rest of the world, we can pay our way, no matter the cost or the sacrifice.

The issues around Anglo and the other banks is seperate and will eventually be sorted out, much of it with debt swaps and writedowns.

But the issue of our current overspend cannot be easily ignored. We cannot keep borrowing as ultimately that will mean higher interest rates, forcing us to borrow even more to keep pace, and we get into a vicious cycle of borrowing to fund previous borrowings and higher interest rates.

Ultimately some form of property tax, harsh though it is, makes up part of the solution.

And for those idiots who go to Man Utd games in England every week, or the Aviva every time Ireland players, or Leinster, or go on expensive stags abroad, and so on, and then claim they can't afford to pay, they are the lowest form in my opinion, if I may be permitted to say that.

They'd rather spend their money in the merchandise shop of old trafford or a strip club in amsterdam, than pay a property tax. Says it all really, me first, country second is their motto. I hope they are pursured to the bitter end, like all tax avoiders who can afford to pay, but choose not to.

squod

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's a cornerstone of democracy, that a democratic government can impose any tax it sees fit for the overall good of the country.....

It's a cornerstone of democracy that the government are accountable to it's people. This is simply not the case in this state.