Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

squod

dvpower wrote: »

Greece are a basket case. Even with debt writeoffs the yield on Greek debt isnt coming down.
The protests in Greece aren't helping the Greek people at all. Their new property tax is much much higher than ours and theirs is being collected via their electricity bills. Non payers will have their electricity cut off.

Protest has worked in Greece. Are you saying that getting €130bn for free didn't help them?

Greece was fuhked before they joined the euro. Now they're officially fuhked under EU rules. I don't need to preach here dvpower. Just want to say that paying this charge is shooting yourself in the foot.

Don't let bullying tactics overwhelm you. I've outlined why this tax is such bolloxollogy before. If the government can't do the job, let them leave.

psychward

plasmaguy wrote: »

So you'd pay perhaps 10,000 euro to install solar panels, just to avoid paying a 100 euro tax? Would it not be easier and cheaper to pay the tax?

It won't stay at 100 Euro for long bud . Think 1000 euro , 2000 Euro . Think upwards only adjustments with future inflation. Think how you are already being taxed on something you paid extortionate stamp duty on. Think how this is a tax even on those who are in negative equity and in a few decades the long suffering property owner will then have to pay capital gains tax.... if he is lucky. How is a property tax even a fair and proportionate wealth tax if the property owner only owns a millstone around his neck ?

dvpower

greenpilot wrote: »

As a matter of interest dvpower, where in this wonderful country of our do you live??

greenpilot wrote: »

Tell me, do you work for the ESB?? are you a sparks?? Do you work for a semi state?

greenpilot wrote: »

For someone in your 40's, you are fairly dishing out the personal abuse.

Well. This is starting to get a bit weird.:eek:

plasmaguy

galwayrush wrote: »

For a lot of people, 100 euro can be a lot, imagine what it will be like for them when it rises. So by them paying it, they have to cut back in other places, thus spending less, so not going to be much of a net gain for the government when the cost of running the tax is factored in.

It's a fair point, but you could argue that about lots of taxes.

There is no getting away from the reality that we have to pay more taxes.

When everyone on this thread acknowledge that we are running an 18 billion annual deficit in day to day spending, this debate will have made a gigantic leap forward, as opposed to the circles in going around in now.

I have still yet to see any of the anti property tax proponents acknowledge our annual deficit is 18 billion, and how they propose to close the gap in this short to medium term, without borrowing more money which yours and my children will be left with to pay back.

eth0

plasmaguy wrote: »

We need to fill an annual 18 billion deficit since the collapse of temporary boom related stamp duty revenues, and a property tax is a crucial first step in that.

In any case many people who can't afford to pay it or are on the dole, don't own property.

about 5bn of that is interest on the national debt so it is going to the bondholders. indeed there is more going to those lads than one could ever reasonably hope to extract from a property tax.

there are also way, way too many people still retaining their cushy numbers in the public service. fellas getting paid 150k a year and all that, these should have their wages cut long before ordinary folk have to cancel their skiing holiday. the government is still overspending, announcing the building of new schools and roads while it has feck all money.

pjmn

I've paid up...

galwayrush

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's a fair point, but you could argue that about lots of taxes.

There is no getting away from the reality that we have to pay more taxes.

When everyone on this thread acknowledge that we are running an 18 billion annual deficit in day to day spending, this debate will have made a gigantic leap forward, as opposed to the circles in going around in now.

I have still yet to see any of the anti property tax proponents acknowledge our annual deficit is 18 billion, and how they propose to close the gap in this short to medium term, without borrowing more money which yours and my children will be left with to pay back.

A lot of people won't mind paying the necessary taxes when the Government stops wasting the money on massive salaries/ pensions. So much waste . By tackling that first would set the proper example. We should be all in this together.....

hiram

dvpower wrote: »

Last time I checked FG weren't in power in Greece.

Do you have some kind of learning difficulty?

It seems, dvpower, that you have run your course in relation to the debate. Your arguments have become increasingly defensive and it has become apparent that, in your final days, you are resorting to sour grapes. You guys lost this one. Walk away now with dignity, or hang your head in shame after March for supporting this foolish charge.

hiram

pjmn wrote: »

I've paid up...

mmmm, If you were expecting a reaction, well here is mine.......oh dear.

smash

Possibly the most annoying bit is the fact they're lying about where the tax is going. It's going straight to the bond holders and ecb/imf loans, not local authority!

plasmaguy

psychward wrote: »

It won't stay at 100 Euro for long bud . Think 1000 euro , 2000 Euro . Think upwards only adjustments with future inflation. Think how you are already being taxed on something you paid extortionate stamp duty on. Think how this is a tax even on those who are in negative equity and in a few decades the long suffering property owner will then have to pay capital gains tax.... if he is lucky. How is a property tax even a fair and proportionate wealth tax if the property owner only owns a millstone around his neck ?

Stamp duty is/was a stupid tax. It's almost impossible to forecast what it will bring in. You can do up the budget at the start of the year and say there will be 100k houses sold next year bringing in x amount.

Then the market can crash, you find it's only 50k houses in reality, the budget is messed up and you're forced to borrow 15 billion or so to make up the difference.

That is exactly what happened Cowen when he was mof at the end of 2007 and done that budget.

Never ever again should we rely on stamp duty as one of our main tax revenues.

I don't think people fully realise the sh*t this country is in, and how close to the edge it is.

Sure we can keep borrowing and living like nothing is wrong. But eventually that mountain of debt will catch up with us and we will be forced into a situation the Greeks are in now.

From what I can see, it's mature people who are willing to pay this tax, and it's immature people unwilling to pay it. Just pay the damn tax.

pjmn

no... wasn't expecting a reaction {but thanks for yours anyway} - just answering the thread question...

dvpower

squod wrote: »

Protest has worked in Greece. Are you saying that getting €130bn for free didn't help them?

The writeoff will of course help them, but indications are that it isn't going to be enough to avoid another default and certainly nowhere near enough to get them back on the road to recovery. They remain in much, much worse shape than we are.

Nor do I think that the writeoff is a result of the protests.

dvpower

smash wrote: »

Possibly the most annoying bit is the fact they're lying about where the tax is going. It's going straight to the bond holders and ecb/imf loans, not local authority!

Link?

hiram

dvpower wrote: »

Well. This is starting to get a bit weird.:eek:

Man, this is funny....I just figured out what happened here....2+2= 1,20334499585:D

plasmaguy

smash wrote: »

Possibly the most annoying bit is the fact they're lying about where the tax is going. It's going straight to the bond holders and ecb/imf loans, not local authority!

That could be so, but what do you expect when we have an 18 billion current account deficit? We have to pay interest on our debts somehow. Anyways, we have always since the foundation of the state borrowed money on the bond markets or their equivalent and paid back bond holders. To say bond holders are somehow evil is just typical of the childish reaction of many to our national problems.

It's like how the greeks blame the germans for the mess they are in.

Paying interest on debts is only part of government spending anyways, maybe 4-5 billion annually. But if we don't keep our debts down eventually that interest mounts and mounts and that's when the trouble really begins.

smash

plasmaguy wrote: »

From what I can see, it's mature people who are willing to pay this tax, and it's immature people unwilling to pay it. Just pay the damn tax.

Don't be so arrogant, maturity has nothing to do with it, it's to do with being screwed, where our money is currently going, lies about what it will be used for and just not having the money to pay it that people have a problem with.

plasmaguy

dvpower wrote: »

The writeoff will of course help them, but indications are that it isn't going to be enough to avoid another default and certainly nowhere near enough to get them back on the road to recovery. They remain in much, much worse shape than we are.

Nor do I think that the writeoff is a result of the protests.

Agreed, largely because for generations, the Greeks refused to pay tax. There's a lesson there.

Paying tax is like anything, if you pay it up front, you avoid the kind of troubles the Greeks are now in.

I know we are bad in this country, but we still have it good compared to the Greeks.

fasttalkerchat

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Not bloody likely. Pay enough tax to prop up European banks already, would have no problem if this was going to local services but there's not a fiddler's chance in hell that this will filter down to local services.

Sure doesn't all wealth just "trickle down" eventually.

Or maybe people have stopped believing that the system will one day work for them.

dxhound2005

Mr CJ wrote: »

I am actually very suprised it is even at 1% if you consider the average per county who registered would be below 0.5% haha

All these new scare tactics they are trying to use and how they are trying to change the law to make us pay makes me even more determined to not pay!! How dare they carry on like this, lately they are really showing there true colours, I actually thought id never say this but I think these guys are worse than FF!! If they had of been in power the last several yrs they would of been a disaster! To top it all off they treat tax evasion to the equivelant of murder, this government makes me more sick every day!!

Dont Register Dont pay stick to your guns everyone let them FCK OFF

The article in the Sunday Times was a bit of a non-story. The data sharing and exchange aspects are laid out in the legislation, Section 14 pages 16/17, summarised in the Explanatory Notes pages 38/39 here.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2011/7411/b7411s.pdf

To me this is just sensible sharing of information among agencies to facilitate smoother operation of the law. So there is no change of the law here and far from being scare tactics it is just the normal type of provision you would get in tax legislation.

The only thing that was slightly new was the Data Protection Commissioner expressing concern about the procedure but he is always expressing concern about something. He knows this legislation is proper in relation to data sharing.

plasmaguy

eth0 wrote: »

about 5bn of that is interest on the national debt so it is going to the bondholders. indeed there is more going to those lads than one could ever reasonably hope to extract from a property tax.

there are also way, way too many people still retaining their cushy numbers in the public service. fellas getting paid 150k a year and all that, these should have their wages cut long before ordinary folk have to cancel their skiing holiday. the government is still overspending, announcing the building of new schools and roads while it has feck all money.

So right, we stop paying back the bondholders this year.

How exactly does that change the fact we need to borrow 18 billion or thereabouts to fund public sector salaries, PS pensions and state pensions, social welfare payments, hospitals, schools, gardai, fire brigade and all that, and the same again next year?

There is absolutely no viable way of bridging the gap between revenues and spending without either borrowing it or raising taxes, unless everyone in the public sector takes a 50% pay cut, and even that wouldn't come near to solving our problems.

vixdname

pjmn wrote: »

no... wasn't expecting a reaction {but thanks for yours anyway} - just answering the thread question...

Why not bend over there just another bit and see how much more of an ass raping you can take from the government :cool:

Am Chile

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The article in the Sunday Times was a bit of a non-story. The data sharing and exchange aspects are laid out in the legislation, Section 14 pages 16/17, summarised in the Explanatory Notes pages 38/39 here.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2011/7411/b7411s.pdf

To me this is just sensible sharing of information among agencies to facilitate smoother operation of the law. So there is no change of the law here and far from being scare tactics it is just the normal type of provision you would get in tax legislation.

The only thing that was slightly new was the Data Protection Commissioner expressing concern about the procedure but he is always expressing concern about something. He knows this legislation is proper in relation to data sharing.

Just a moments reflection, a few months ago it was reported in the Irish Independent hundreds haven,t paid nor registered for the second home tax and not tracked down, if the goverment can track people via esb bills/records one would of thought they would of done so long ago and tracked those not paying nor registered for the second home tax via esb bills/records.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-escape-secondhome-tax-2913935.html

hiram

hiram wrote: »

Man, this is funny....I just figured out what happened here....2+2= 1,20334499585:D

But.....upon long logical examination....Im not paying either....sorry..

plasmaguy

smash wrote: »

Don't be so arrogant, maturity has nothing to do with it, it's to do with being screwed, where our money is currently going, lies about what it will be used for and just not having the money to pay it that people have a problem with.

Some of the money will go to pay back the bondholders who lent us money in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 to bridge the day to day deficits we ran.

Is that ok?

Or should we have just tried to live within our means.

Please try to keep this discussion reasonable as opposed to scare mongering and using phrases like big bad bondholders or the like.

Bondholders kept this country from going to the wall in recent years and will do long into the future. It's not their fault as a nation we can't live within our means and are forced to borrow.

Banning borrowing would solve nothing to be honest. Or is it just free money you want from everyone else?

TreesAreCrowd

It's irrelevant if it's not paid, the money will be taken out in another form. This is all budgeted out and the money has to be found, so it will be and simply not paying one charge isn't going to stop that.

I hope the non-payers are dealt with accordingly and quite frankly, harshly. An example needs to be set.

pjmn

vixdname wrote: »

Why not bend over there just another bit and see how much more of an ass raping you can take from the government :cool:

... don't think that personal abuse is called for - whether a person decides to pay this tax (and/or any other tax) is a matter for them to decide - having decided to pay, I didn't abuse anyone who chose not to... all I did was answer the thread question, no more, no less... :rolleyes:

Mr CJ

pjmn wrote: »

I've paid up...

Pj if I give you my address will you send me a blank cheque please? It will go towards our local amenities, I will pm you my address thanks!

plasmaguy

hiram wrote: »

But.....upon long logical examination....Im not paying either....sorry..

Logic or emotion?

Logically you don't have a leg to stand on, if you understood the situation this country is in.

The Greeks tried to give the IMF two fingers and it got them precisely nowhere.

The IMF have never ever given nothing for free or without conditions.

The property tax is one condition.

hiram

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

It's irrelevant if it's not paid, the money will be taken out in another form. This is all budgeted out and the money has to be found, so it will be and simply not paying one charge isn't going to stop that.

I hope the non-payers are dealt with accordingly and quite frankly, harshly. An example needs to be set.

Welcome to Boards, but I think you are a wee bit late jumping on the bandwagon..... 2% have just paid.....thats a lot of harsh examples to be set!!:D:D:cool: