Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

good girl.:rolleyes:

Isn't Naoise a blokes name?

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Smell the irony!

'Good girl' is an insult

Btw Francis, I don't think you ever told us what political party you are aligned with?

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

'Good girl' is an insult

Btw Francis, I don't think you ever told us what political party you are aligned with?

Jaysus, mind you don't get whiplash trying to change subject so quickly.


Good lad. :rolleyes:

Rabidlamb

You keyboard warriors will fall in when the first fine notices drop.
Oh the squirming will be fun to watch.
There'll be a few die hards who will get their day in court but the public will have lost interest by then.
Once you're on the grid only death will free you.

Yours
Phil

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Jaysus, mind you don't get whiplash trying to change subject so quickly.


Good lad. :rolleyes:

Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.

naoise80

Ghandee wrote: »

Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.

Why put the sarcastic :rolleyes: at the end?

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.

Don't know what's worse, the inherent sexism of your original comment or the subsequent pathetic backtracking and feeble attempt at justification.

If you're in a hole, stop digging.

plasmaguy

Ahem, if I may.

We elected the current government (or shower as governments routinely are called these days).

We had our chance to kick out the old one and put in a new one with Labour on board too.

And the result? They bring in new taxes.

What did people think would happen? That FG/Labour would not raise taxes?

There is an annual deficit of 18 billion - This has got nothing to do with paying back bondholders for the mistakes of FF developers.

This is an 18 billion current account deficit, money needed for day to day spending. So we either raise taxes or borrow more and pass the responsibility for paying it back to our children.

I am all for telling bondholders to clear off when it comes to covering the loans of failed property developers.

But telling them to clear off when it comes to paying back our day to day borrowings, that's different altogether.

It's basically economic illiteracy that discourages people from paying this tax.

ekans

hate = hat + e

M cebee

ekans wrote: »

hate = hat + e

hate=h+8

plasmaguy

Stinicker wrote: »

I'll enjoy watching them squirm when they see the €100 double, quadruple and quintiple to €2,000 a year over the next few years. Which is what is going to happen. I'm not paying it myself and if they try to use the ESB or other utilities against me I will just cut them off.

I live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road, I have no services at all and am totally self sufficent, bar the ESB.

There is no rubbish collection locally and I don't protest about it and I take my rubbish to the waste station once a month and recycle most of it for free and bin the rest into bags which go to landfill.

My water comes from a mountain stream clean, chemical free and unpolluted unlike the councils muck they supply.

The rural road resembles the surface of the moon, and I pay a thousand or two in Motor tax and fuel, vat etc.

There is no local guard or barracks, I rely on the shotgun and my own isolation for protection.

I get nothing from the Government and won't be paying the tax until I see around 50% of the public sector made redundant and the other 50% get 50% pay cuts.

Laissez faire living for the win!

You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.

eth0

plasmaguy wrote: »

You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.

What about all the other forms of tax we have, it doesn't pay for any of those? I dont believe you should have to pay tax if you're not earning anything and you're not spending anything. The fact that they're now going at your house is too much of a power grab by the government and I would rather freeze to death myself than to keep paying them for the privilege of owning something.

JimiTime

TBH, I'd be a lot more receptive to a 'Recession' tax. At least then it would be clear what its for in relation to paying back what the country has borrowed etc.

I absolutely HATE the idea that we are about to introduce this property tax, on the basis that its going to go up and up and be with us forever. The price of it now is very affordable, so thats not my issue. It will just become the norm and we will continue to get nothing for it. It will rise and rise, and we'll get nothing specific. Salary rises for councillors maybe.

plasmaguy

Yeh well there are a whole class of people in Ireland who have never worked a day in their life, never paid tax and never will, and they want handouts for everything.

I hope they put this tax on Traveller's Caravans as well, another class of people who are enaged in all kinds of tax avoidance. The loss of tax revenue to the state from Travellers is incalculable.

Frank Black

eth0 wrote: »

What about all the other forms of tax we have, it doesn't pay for any of those? I dont believe you should have to pay tax if you're not earning anything and you're not spending anything. The fact that they're now going at your house is too much of a power grab by the government and I would rather freeze to death myself than to keep paying them for the privilege of owning something.

So you don't own a car then?

Must be awkward for you considering you "live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road".

eth0

black francis wrote: »

So you don't own a car then?

Must be awkward for you considering you "live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road".

That was some other lad.

I own a few cars. Only one is taxed though, that would be another thing the govt could come up 'ah here you have an ould heap of rust in the shed, you can pay us in return for us allowing you to hold on to it'

SafeSurfer

plasmaguy wrote: »

You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.

Your recent posts have been contradictory.

Just a page ago you said

I wish we had a choice in this, but we don't.

The IMF owns Ireland now, where have you been the last 2 years? Our government, democratically elected they may have been, are just IMF puppets. That's the reality of the situation.

Now you are giving our sovereignty as a reason to pay the household charge.
Which is it?

You also say

It's basically economic illiteracy that discourages people from paying this tax.

I don't think this is the case.
Many people's objection to the household charge stems from the fact that it is a flat rate tax which are inherently unjust.

Michael O' Leary will pay the same amount on his country pile Gigginstown House as the couple trapped in a shoebox apartment on the outskirts of Naas.

This inequity is what people object to.

dvpower

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Michael O' Leary will pay the same amount on his country pile Gigginstown House as the couple trapped in a shoebox apartment on the outskirts of Naas.

This inequity is what people object to.

The household charge is a precursor to a value based property tax.
Thus inequality will be ironed out over the next couple of years (and replaced with what some people will perceive as other inequalities).

Michael O'Leary will soon be paying more than the couple in Naas (but they'll both be paying more than €100).

SafeSurfer

dvpower wrote: »

The household charge is a precursor to a value based property tax.
Thus inequality will be ironed out over the next couple of years (and replaced with what some people will perceive as other inequalities).

Michael O'Leary will soon be paying more than the couple in Naas (but they'll both be paying more than €100).

Well why not postpone the charge until it can be introduced on an equitable basis?

dvpower

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Well why not postpone the charge until it can be introduced on an equitable basis?

Its been agreed with the troika and they didn't get their act together to get it sorted in time.

SafeSurfer

dvpower wrote: »

Its been agreed with the troika and they didn't get their act together to get it sorted in time.

In my opinion it is a terrible mistake politically. The 100 euro household charge has been in the pipeline long enough for them to implement a valuation based property tax instead. It is political expediency, what did Alan Shatter say "its only 79 punts a year", that will come back to haunt them.

A valuation based tax could not be reasonably opposed by any politician, especially the socialists who are leading the charge against the household tax. When less than half of those liable for the charge have registered by the end of this month, what then? There is every likelihood that it will fail, making the introduction of any property tax, equitable or not impossible for the foreseeable future.

dvpower

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In my opinion it is a terrible mistake politically. The 100 euro household charge has been in the pipeline long enough for them to implement a valuation based property tax instead. It is political expediency, what did Alan Shatter say "its only 79 punts a year", that will come back to haunt them.

A valuation based tax could not be reasonably opposed by any politician, especially the socialists who are leading the charge against the household tax. When less than half of those liable for the charge have registered by the end of this month, what then? There is every likelihood that it will fail, making the introduction of any property tax, equitable or not impossible for the foreseeable future.

I agree with most of this, except for the last part.
They should have gotten their act together sooner and I don't see them getting their act together even now. I predict that we wont have a valuation based property tax until 2004 at least.

I can't see it failing for the simple reason that it has been agreed with the trioka and I think they are keen on a property tax because of the revenue stability it gives. Towards the middle of the year, when we haven't raised the 160m and the government are having to raise the money elsewhere, there will be political pressure to come down hard on the non payers.

Am Chile

From the waterford anti household tax facebook page, as they only knew a few days in advance a visit by richard bruton, there was a picket outside where he was visiting.

This picture and the second small poster in particular is a good one, as richard bruton himself said those words when in opposition, that no country has ever taxed itself out of recession.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=393301757364999&set=a.328178360544006.92184.327428877285621&type=1&theater

plasmaguy

dvpower wrote: »

I agree with most of this, except for the last part.
They should have gotten their act together sooner and I don't see them getting their act together even now. I predict that we wont have a valuation based property tax until 2004 at least.

I can't see it failing for the simple reason that it has been agreed with the trioka and I think they are keen on a property tax because of the revenue stability it gives. Towards the middle of the year, when we haven't raised the 160m and the government are having to raise the money elsewhere, there will be political pressure to come down hard on the non payers.

+1.

A rare example of measured proposals amid a torrent of "I'm not paying it" hysteria.

We should have had a property tax years ago, instead of a stamp duty/pay at the point of purchase tax.

The problem with the stamp duty tax was always going to be that revenues from it were related to the state of the property market.

So if there was lots of house sales, and expensive house sales at that, stamp duty boomed.

If there hardly any house sales, there was no stamp duty revenue.

The government budgeted in 2008 for example for a certain amount of stamp duty income. When that failed to materiliase because of the crash, they ended up with a massive deficit.

We need to get rid of stamp duty taxes. And replace them with a more reliable consistant revenue stream. Otherwise this country is completely screwed.

There are still people like me fighting to save this country, whereas others seem to have just given up and written it off.

Bruthal

plasmaguy wrote: »

There are still people like me fighting to save this country, whereas others seem to have just given up and written it off.

When in a fight though, many people can only take so many hits.

plasmaguy

robbie7730 wrote: »

When in a fight though, many people can only take so many hits.

I feel sorry for some people genuinely on the breadline.

But the vast majority can afford 100 euro, don't be kidding yourself. Perhaps a few hundred thousand will struggle.

But when I see people with plenty of money, can splash it out saturday night in the pub, can go on 2 or 3 holidays a year, skiing, summer holiday, EuroDisney, match at Old Trafford, rugby matches at the Avivia, and so on and so forth, and these same people say they aren't paying it or can't afford it, it's hard to take them seriously. And we all know such people, if I know them, which I do, then everyone knows them. These people won't pay because it might mean having to missing a game at the Aviva between Leinster and someone. Oh the horror.

Slick50

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Slick50 wrote: »

The problem is that this is not a tax on the family home our another route of residence. If out was then all households would pay irrespective of whether the residents owned the property or not.

The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

Is there something wrong with your keyboard?

plasmaguy

I think a lot of people are not paying, not because of the amount, but because of the principle.

Well the principle of paying is right, so pay up. And don't be costing the taxpayer even more money with court cases.

Bruthal

plasmaguy wrote: »

I feel sorry for some people genuinely on the breadline.

But the vast majority can afford 100 euro, don't be kidding yourself. Perhaps a few hundred thousand will struggle.

If its a few hundred thousand that will struggle with €100, how many will struggle when its €800?

Slick50

plasmaguy wrote: »

In my opinion, the Stamp Duty tax was a far more unfair tax on people than a measly 100 euro property tax. The Stamp Duty tax could often amount to as much as 50,000 on an average property in the boom years, and people didn't even complain.

The price of the average property reached about €340k, and stamp duty was 7% in that price range, plus the first €125k was exempt. So where do you get €50k from.

It has already been accepted by most people on here that this tax will not stay at a "measly" €100.