Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Biggins

plasmaguy wrote: »

If you're big enough to own a house, you're big enough to pay a property tax.

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

plasmaguy

Biggins wrote: »

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

We are facing an annual tax shortfall of roughly fifteen billion which has got nothing to do with corrupt developers and everything to do with Public Sector unions screwing the taxpayers for years with their benchmarking, big pensions and jobs for the boys and all that.

Yes of course paying back the debts of rogue bankers and developers is draining us. But leaving that aside, we still spend more than we take in, in tax revenues in this country by a long long way. The stamp duty income of the boom era has to be replaced with something else.

The last thing we need is to copy the Greeks and avoid paying taxes because that will show 'em (corrupt Greek golden circle).

There are two types of debts the Irish people owe, the debts of the property speculators, but also the annual deficit made up of a shortfall of daily taxes such as income and stamp duty tax. It's the second one that taxes like the property tax were brought in to address.

If people think that if they stop paying tax or one particular tax is going to make things better, they are sadly mistaken, it will just mean inevitably the government having to borrow more money to make up the shortfall, and then watch the national debt clock increase even faster.

If the people don't pay the property tax, the government will just simply borrow it anyways and have to pay it back with interest. So take your pick.

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

There is no suggestion at all that anyone igoing to lose the roof over their head. Why the scaremongering?

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

There is no suggestion at all that anyone igoing to lose the roof over their head. Why the scaremongering?

Thats indeed an extreme case, but the fact is that if one manages (near impossible due to the inventive number of ways they have introduced to get the money out of you either at direct source such as wages or dole, etc) to escape paying, the fine will accumulate in a non-ending spiral?


...But the above is NOT the point I was making, it was and still/is that unlike others taxes, levies, charges (or whatever new name FG/Labour can think of regularly), its it this...

If one wants to avoids to avoid other taxes, licence charges, etc, one can sell the TV, dump the car, scrap the motorbike and on and on...
However the home that you or your parents have been working for most of their lives, to pay off, just cannot be dumped so easily!
...So the government has you really by the balls!

Like it or not, your going to owe money to the government more so till the day you die - think about that - even if that means you will never even for a minutes notice ever get to relax and say "well I will never owe money to anyone ever more".
You will never be able to say that more so just because you have the cheek to go buy your own home!

Your home, a one sacrosanct place where once you could go and try escape the pressures of the world and take shelter from them.
Now the government has come down on those four walls and roof and said "Tough mate - now cough up forever more! Don't like it? Fcuk you! Pay up!"

mikom

Biggins wrote: »

Like it or not, your going to owe money to the government more so till the day you die - think about that - even if that means you will never even for a minutes notice ever get to relax and say "well I will never owe money to anyone ever more".
You will never be able to say that more so just because you have the cheek to go buy your own home!

That's a good point.
Forever indebted to the government............. unless you live in a caravan.
Strike one for the unsettled travellers.

plasmaguy

Unfortunately since the end of the property boom and the loss of the massive stamp duty revenues, successive governments have to find ways to make up that shortfall, or else cut more spending, more public jobs, or alternatively borrow.

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

I hate paying tax as much as the next person and know that most of my taxes go to pay the wages of idiots just like my licence fee pays the wages of idiot "stars" in RTE, but refusing to pay tax will solve nothing and make things worse for the country.

mikom

plasmaguy wrote: »

I hate paying tax as much as the next person and know that most of my taxes go to pay the wages of idiots just like my licence fee pays the wages of idiot "stars" in RTE, but refusing to pay tax will solve nothing and make things worse for the country.

So you will perpetuate it?

plasmaguy

mikom wrote: »

So you will perpetuate it?

Find me a person who likes paying any form of tax.

If income tax was voluntary, do you think anyone would pay it, or declare their real income?

You'd be viewed as a fool if you did, perpetuating a goldern circle blah blah blah would be the excuse of the majority, no question about it.

When the government made paying the property tax voluntary/up to the individual to decide when they would pay, they were asking for trouble.

mikom

plasmaguy wrote: »

If income tax was voluntary, do you think anyone would pay it, or declare their real income?

.

Lots of self employed do.

dvpower

plasmaguy wrote: »

When the government made paying the property tax voluntary/up to the individual to decide when they would pay, they were asking for trouble.

They didn't make it voluntary or up to individuals when they will pay.
It is mandatory - the deadline for payment is 31 March. Thereafter interest and penalties will apply.

MeerKat17

I am renting, and therefore as far as I know not liable for the household charge, and my landlord is not resident in the country so I don't believe he has paid it yet. But the utility bills are in my name so if they intend to track people down by utility bills does that mean that they will come after me for it?

plasmaguy

mikom wrote: »

Lots of self employed do.

That's true, although possibly don't declare everything, as most of the defaulters caught by revenue are self employed who underdeclare.

Since there's probably 10 times the amount of PAYE payers as self employed, you'd be talking of 10 times the number of defaulters, and in a recession far more.

The ordinary Joe Soap hates paying tax and if they can find a reason to avoid paying it they will.

They will cite Dev's something or other, or go back to the Civil War and this that and the other and then say, that's the reason I won't pay. Everyone will find a reason.

Like I said, corrupt shower or not, we still have a day to day shortfall of tax, and someone's gotta pay it.

I'd rather it would be me than passing it on to the next generation via the national debt, which seems to be exactly what we are doing at the moment.

dvpower

MeerKat17 wrote: »

I am renting, and therefore as far as I know not liable for the household charge, and my landlord is not resident in the country so I don't believe he has paid it yet. But the utility bills are in my name so if they intend to track people down by utility bills does that mean that they will come after me for it?

No. They won't.
Utility bills was just one of many data sources they are talking about using.

plasmaguy

dvpower wrote: »

They didn't make it voluntary or up to individuals when they will pay.
It is mandatory - the deadline for payment is 31 March. Thereafter interest and penalties will apply.

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

Merch

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone interested can let the Government know their ideas about the property tax. One thing which has been decided already is that the NPPR will be abolished so anyone with more than one house will not have to pay any extra over and above the property tax on each of their properties.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/Inter-DepartmentalGrouponPropertyTax/

Been reading through this thread, while there are differing opinions
I cannot see in that link where anything says the NPPR is being abolished? or anywhere else.

mikom

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

* Awaits next budget multiplication*

the groutch

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

you should be worried about the fact you've given them permission to take as much as they want off you in the following month's or years, it's the proverbial blank cheque.

Finneen

Yes, but only to piss off those lefty TDs!

massey168

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

If everyone took that cowardly lets bend over and collaborate with their corruption approach we'd all be paying €1000 a year next year to fund the golden circle's lifestyle. Perhaps you also have no money worries in paying at that level as well, but many people do.

tayto lover

Who else supplies electricity apart from the E.S.B. ?
Time to make contingency plans. If the E.S.B. give my details to Hogan and his cronies I will leave them and sign up with their competitor as should all the No camp. They will suffer the repercussions.

The_Thing

.....There is also a mass march on 31st March, the Fine Gael Árd Fheis is taking place on that Saturday the 31st of March in the Convention Centre, (NAMA Building) on the quays. Gather at the Garden of Remembrance at 1pm. It is time we got off our asses and took to the streets. The whole family should come. Buses are being arranged from around the country. Contact your local branch for details or check on Facebook. it’s time to take our country back.

^
Quoting from thejournal.ie article I linked to earlier for anyone who might be interested.

Personally speaking I'd love nothing more than to see the Irish Army shell the convention center with high explosive rounds when all the blue-shirts are inside.

Slick50

plasmaguy wrote: »

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

The tax will be coming from the same "pot" of cash anyway, so this statement makes no sense.

There is no need to levy this tax on the familiy home, other than to intimidate people into paying it. And a lack of imagination.

It is a morally wrong, unjust tax.

Lister1

Strange them going after utility companies to identify people who haven't paid. I would have assumed they would use geodirectory and address the communication 'to the owner' as I don't believe there would be any data protection issues in play if they were to do this....


http://www.geodirectory.ie/About-GeoDirectory.aspx

rasper

Definitely the best way to turn off any prospective buyers off. , a lot easier to go on housing list or rent

squod

Lister1 wrote: »

Strange them going after utility companies to identify people who haven't paid. I would have assumed they would use geodirectory and address the communication 'to the owner' as I don't believe there would be any data protection issues in play if they were to do this....


http://www.geodirectory.ie/About-GeoDirectory.aspx

Why would they do that? They just want to load the average tax payer, not the rich!

Many rich folk put their finances through companies for accounting/tax reasons. Even someone with a modest portfolio has a good chance of avoiding this tax IMO.

RandomName2

FOR THOSE ON THIS THREAD REPEATEDLY SAYING HOW €100 IS SUCH A TINY SUM:

Note the following (from MoneyGuide):

The temporary Household Charge of €100 per property came into force in Ireland from January 2012 – but this is only in place until a full Irish Property Tax system is set up

The Government has now established a “Property Tax Epert group ” to recommend an appropriate system of property tax.

The amounts of Property Tax suggested in the Commission on Taxation's report were as follows

• Valued Under €150,000 – Tax Amount in the range €188 to €225 a year
• Valued between €150k to €300k – Property Tax between€563 and €675 a year
• Valued between €300k and €450k – Property Tax between €938 and €1125 a year
• Valued between €450k and €600k – Property Tax between €1313 and €1575 a year
• Valued between €600k and €750k – Property Tax between €1688 and €2025 a year
• Valued between €750k and €1m – Property Tax between €2188 and €2625 a year
• Valued between €1m and €1.5m – Property Tax between €3125 and €3750 a year
• Valued Over €1.5m – tax based on between 0.25% and 0.3% of the value.

Ogham

tayto lover wrote: »

Who else supplies electricity apart from the E.S.B. ?
Time to make contingency plans. If the E.S.B. give my details to Hogan and his cronies I will leave them and sign up with their competitor as should all the No camp. They will suffer the repercussions.

ESB - is split into 2 parts. The supply part we deal with directly and pay our bills to . The other part of ESB has all the data on the property location (MPRN numbers) - (even if you are with Airtricity). This is where they will be gatting info on properties. I don't think they will be getting info on bill payers names.
(I could be wrong )

gerryo777

First time back on this thread for a few weeks and glad to see dvpower is still here, same comments but to a different group of posters!

So now big Phil is going to find out where we live, so f***ing what, I still won't be paying but at least he will know where to send the fine.

It's just more scare mongering from Phil & co, trying to frighten people into paying, even saying that local authority's might not have enough money to fund their fire service's, what a crock of ****e.

But it won't work, people aren't stupid, they know that this money is going to central funds and will be squandered by him and his mates.

Still around the 10% mark with 2 weeks to go before the fines kick in?, can't see 1.4 million people registering before the end of the month!!

Keep it up folks, DON'T REGISTER / DONT PAY.

Arnold Layne

Slick50 wrote: »

plasmaguy wrote: »

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

The tax will be coming from the same "pot" of cash anyway, so this statement makes no sense.

There is no need to levy this tax on the familiy home, other than to intimidate people into paying it. And a lack of imagination.

It is a morally wrong, unjust tax.

The problem is that this is not a tax on the family home our another route of residence. If out was then all households would pay irrespective of whether the residents owned the property or not.

The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

gerryo777

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Slick50 wrote: »

The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

The owners of houses on RAS schemes are not exempt from this tax.