Tralee to Fenit Greenway

JonathonS

Quackster wrote: »

BT Ireland operate a fibre optic cable along the length of the Tralee-Limerick line for which they pay yearly rent to CIE. This in itself is CIE asserting ownership of the line.

That will not be sufficient. If the squatter has used the land without hiding his intentions, eg he has fenced it off, or concreted over it, and this has not been challenged by the landowner, then the squatter has a strong case.

JonathonS

Quackster wrote: »

And mere possession of the property is not sufficient either. Possession must be "adverse" and therefore demonstrate an intention to exclude the true owner and all others from use and enjoyment of the property.

That is not a correct. Adverse simply means that the property is used without the permission of the owner. This prevents someone who uses a property with permission trying to assert ownership.

The most recent notable recent case was Pat Kenny's a few years ago, but he settled out of court.

Quackster

JonathonS wrote: »

That is not a correct. Adverse simply means that the property is used without the permission of the owner. This prevents someone who uses a property with permission trying to assert ownership.

The most recent notable recent case was Pat Kenny's a few years ago, but he settled out of court.

It is entirely correct. Use of property without the permission of the owner in itself is not sufficient to claim adverse possession. It must also be demonstrated that there has been an intention to exclude the true owner and all others from use and enjoyment of the property. The fencing off of said property may be a sufficient proof of this (a plausible factor in the Pat Kenny case).

The presence of the fibre optic cable provides arguable grounds that CIE have not been entirely excluded from use and enjoyment of their property. It doesn't secure CIE's case (I didn't claim it did) but is a strong factor in CIE's favour.

serfboard

Quackster wrote: »

BT Ireland operate a fibre optic cable along the length of the Tralee-Limerick line for which they pay yearly rent to CIE. This in itself is CIE asserting ownership of the line.

I was told as part of this process that JCBs removed fencing that had been put up by the squatters at certain points of the line.

Anyone else heard this, or be able to confirm?

If so, then that would definitely be a case of asserting ownership IMO.

Quackster

From what I understand, the claims in the Kilmorna area mainly centre on sections of the line that individuals have been using for access purposes and there's a relatively poor chance of these individuals being able to assert adverse possession. Right-of-way most likely (if none existed already) but not squatters' rights.

However, there is at least one much more worrying instance. In this case, in the townland of Parkboy just outside Tralee, shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split, an individual has extended their back garden over the line. One can actually see it on Google Maps if you search for "Parkboy Tralee", switch to satellite view and zoom in on the property labelled "Mulberry Creek".

And it's quite likely this is not the only such instance along the Limerick line in Kerry either.

serfboard

Quackster wrote: »

And it's quite likely this is not the only such instance along the Limerick line in Kerry either.

This is going on all over the country. Check out the Western Rail Corridor thread to see examples of where this has happened, on a line that some people want to re-open as railway!

The most outrageous example of it is here.

kingdumb

Sorry my point was that the title remains with the landowner until proven otherwise.

JonathonS wrote: »

Not true. A key part of the law is that the landowner must have asserted their ownership. If they have not done so their position is seriously weakened.

GearoidP

Hi, we've a facebook page now to push for the extension of the Great Southern Trail extension to Listowel. All "likes" greatly appreciated: www.facebook.com/Listowelrailwalk

I attended the Urban council meeting in Listowel last Monday 11th Feb. All councillors present (except 1 - Denis Stack) spoke in favour of the trail being extended to Listowel, with only 3 of then "qualifying" their support by saying that it would need to be achieved through consensus.

Hopefully at the next sitting of Listowel Urban Council, they will actually pass a motion in support.

After the meeting, a team of us distributed 1000 brochures (with map of the trail etc) to houses in Listowel. Everyone we spoke to in Listowel was in support of this. There are a lot of closed shops in Listowel and anything like this that can bring in tourists will be welcome, as well being a great amenity for the people of Listowel.

pooka on wheels

Quackster wrote: »

From what I understand, the claims in the Kilmorna area mainly centre on sections of the line that individuals have been using for access purposes and there's a relatively poor chance of these individuals being able to assert adverse possession. Right-of-way most likely (if none existed already) but not squatters' rights.

However, there is at least one much more worrying instance. In this case, in the townland of Parkboy just outside Tralee, shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split, an individual has extended their back garden over the line. One can actually see it on Google Maps if you search for "Parkboy Tralee", switch to satellite view and zoom in on the property labelled "Mulberry Creek".

And it's quite likely this is not the only such instance along the Limerick line in Kerry either.

The extension of the back garden only happened two years ago. Not enough time to claim squatters rights

amadain

Quackster wrote: »

........there is at least one much more worrying instance. In this case, in the townland of Parkboy just outside Tralee, shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split..........

Just noticed in the nearby townland of Ballynahoulort (again shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split BUT on the Fenit line) the first house called "Shinawill" seems to have BUILT ON THE LINE, with what looks like a concrete yard and store ???

An appropriately named house :eek:

They might yet open a coffee/gift shop to passing tourists !

(Search "Ballynahoulort Tralee" on Google maps)

pooka on wheels

amadain wrote: »

Just noticed in the nearby townland of Ballynahoulort (again shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split BUT on the Fenit line) the first house called "Shinawill" seems to have BUILT ON THE LINE, with what looks like a concrete yard and store ???

An appropriately named house :eek:

They might yet open a coffee/gift shop to passing tourists !

(Search "Ballynahoulort Tralee" on Google maps)

That building is built on CIE ground beside the rails. The occupant carries on a buisness there repairing pallets. In recent times he concreted over the line and uses the area for parking. It is only since the move to establish the greenway that he erected gates enclosing and blocking the route. I will try and get a photo over the weekend. To be fair to the occupants of Shinwill, which is an old railway cottage, I dont think they are connected to the pallet business

delthedriver

amadain wrote: »

Just noticed in the nearby townland of Ballynahoulort (again shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split BUT on the Fenit line) the first house called "Shinawill" seems to have BUILT ON THE LINE, with what looks like a concrete yard and store ???

An appropriately named house :eek:

They might yet open a coffee/gift shop to passing tourists !

(Search "Ballynahoulort Tralee" on Google maps)

They can start digging up the concrete yard.

What is it about Kerry?

Probably the most scenic county in Ireland, yet gob****es push it beyond the limit in terms of planning.

Even pre Celtic Tiger, houses were built without planning permission, garages outbuildings erected without any consideration for the environment let alone thought to planning regs.

I have no sympathy for these gombeens who are holding up the Trailway.

It is not their land,the contractor for the project should be given permission to simply drive the machinery through and continue on .

delthedriver

delthedriver wrote: »

They can start digging up the concrete yard.

What is it about Kerry?

Probably the most scenic county in Ireland, yet gob****es push it beyond the limit in terms of planning.

Even pre Celtic Tiger, houses were built without planning permission, garages outbuildings erected without any consideration for the environment let alone thought to planning regs.

I have no sympathy for these gombeens who are holding up the Trailway.

It is not their land,the contractor for the project should be given permission to simply drive the machinery through and continue on .

Absolutely. Ah shur, build it anyway and apply for retention.

My parents moved near Listowel in 1996. Their solicitor missed it, but it turned out that the two extensions to the house were built without planning permission. We had to apply for retention, which luckily we got.

delthedriver

pooka on wheels wrote: »

That building is built on CIE ground beside the rails. The occupant carries on a buisness there repairing pallets. In recent times he concreted over the line and uses the area for parking. It is only since the move to establish the greenway that he erected gates enclosing and blocking the route. I will try and get a photo over the weekend. To be fair to the occupants of Shinwill, which is an old railway cottage, I dont think they are connected to the pallet business

Whoever gave this guy permission to carry on a commercial business activity at that location?
He has built on land not belonging to him..mmmmmmmmmm!
Send in the crane and wrecking ball.!!!!!

Sponge Bob

Squatters Rights take much longer to establish where the land is state owned, it requires 30 years rather than 10-12 as would be the case with privately owned lands.

None of Tralee - Fenit or Tralee - Limerick or Athenry - Colooney have been continually squatted for that long. CIE can send a bulldozer in a straight line through their own property at any time. They might see a bush a few 100 yards down the line that they think needs clearing.

Single these squatters out for a septic tank inspection every 2 months and they will get the message soon enough, make sure that Listowel councillor is treated as equitably as the squatters.

pooka on wheels

delthedriver wrote: »

Whoever gave this guy permission to carry on a commercial business activity at that location?
He has built on land not belonging to him..mmmmmmmmmm!
Send in the crane and wrecking ball.!!!!!

"Permission" - What's that.

delthedriver

Karsini wrote: »

Absolutely. Ah shur, build it anyway and apply for retention.

My parents moved near Listowel in 1996. Their solicitor missed it, but it turned out that the two extensions to the house were built without planning permission. We had to apply for retention, which luckily we got.

You were lucky.

Nothing would surprise me, it is like the wild west!

Their solicitor missed it! Kerry based?;)

Sponge Bob

pooka on wheels wrote: »

"Permission" - What's that.

A little known fact about the Achill greenway is that it is still owned by the farmers who bought it 60 or more years ago.

The Achill Greenway went ahead after these farmers gave permission for it ....all 160 of them. The same principle would apply were a greenway proposed on the Tralee - Dingle line....or at least on the usable section west of Camp...the rest of it is destroyed be bungalows. Same on the railway towards Caherciveen of course although that is pretty much intact.

Look up "Permissive Access" at some stage, Permissive Access can be withdrawn...one must normally give notice of perhaps one year first and the greenway must reroute by the end of it.

The first stage of reopening would be for a local community based campaign to go to all the landowners along those routes, explain permissive access properly, and see if they would support the IDEA in principle....not the same as giving permission. Then present Tourism Minister The Bull Deenihan
Varadkar with the results of this survey.

None of the 160 landowners along the Achill Greenway have withdrawn permission that I know of. I am aware of others who have been asked for and granted permissive access on their lands and where these are not old railway alignments in Mayo since the Greenway opened.

I think the same will be true in Kerry after one successful Greenway is finally completed down there. Best of luck to ye.

delthedriver

pooka on wheels wrote: »

"Permission" - What's that.

Permission is doing the exact opposite to planning regulations.

Shur twill be grand out lads!:rolleyes:

delthedriver

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Squatters Rights take much longer to establish where the land is state owned, it requires 30 years rather than 10-12 as would be the case with privately owned lands.

None of Tralee - Fenit or Tralee - Limerick or Athenry - Colooney have been continually squatted for that long. CIE can send a bulldozer in a straight line through their own property at any time. They might see a bush a few 100 yards down the line that they think needs clearing.

Single these squatters out for a septic tank inspection every 2 months and they will get the message soon enough, make sure that Listowel councillor is treated as equitably as the squatters.

Many thanks,glad to hear that CIE can send in a bulldozerand clear the line. I can,t fathom why they don't just get on and do it.

Sponge Bob

delthedriver wrote: »

Many thanks,glad to hear that CIE can send in a bulldozerand clear the line. I can,t fathom why they don't just get on and do it.

They are a tad overly sensitive to the fact that Deenihan would be stuck in meetings with misc.gobdaws that he might have hurled against in a 1961 County Junior semi final, or something like that, is why.

The best thing for CIE to do is to first explain fthe law to Deenihan and then announce their 2013 line junk clearance program.

Do let Deenihan have his inevitable meetiings....and finally, a few weeks later, just clear the shagging things.

After they reassert state ownership by clearing the lines the 30 year clock will start again and the gobdaws won't have the heart to continue their crap.

I'm sure CIE will be glad to be shot of the lot for the price of hiring a bulldozer for a week and ringing the guards to tell them when they are driving it.

delthedriver

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They are a tad overly sensitive to the fact that Deenihan would be stuck in meetings with misc.gobdaws that he might have hurled against in a 1961 County Junior semi final, or something like that, is why.

The best thing for CIE to do is to first explain fthe law to Deenihan and then announce their 2013 line junk clearance program.

Do let Deenihan have his inevitable meetiings....and finally, a few weeks later, just clear the shagging things.

After they reassert state ownership by clearing the lines the 30 year clock will start again and the gobdaws won't have the heart to continue their crap.

I'm sure CIE will be glad to be shot of the lot for the price of hiring a bulldozer for a week and ringing the guards to tell them when they are driving it.

Thank you, I am all in favour of getting this project moved on for the greater good of the County and Tourism.
Minister Deenihan has my sympathies, it is an awful waste of his time having to listen to and placate gombeens,,but that is how Politics works in this country, parish pump mentality, never see the bigger picture and The Field!:D

delthedriver

Hopefully when the Tralee Fenit line project is completed, we can persuade the joggers and cyclists and walkers to use the facility as opposed to the roadway.
It is amazing there has not been a serious accident on the road involving a motor vehicle and joggers or cyclists.
The road from Tralee to Spa and Fenit is too narrow, with blind bends, often obstructing drivers views to be faced with with joggers running 3 &4 abreast running towards them.
The sooner the project is completed the better.:)

RikkFlair

amadain wrote: »

Just noticed in the nearby townland of Ballynahoulort (again shortly after the Fenit and Limerick lines split BUT on the Fenit line) the first house called "Shinawill" seems to have BUILT ON THE LINE, with what looks like a concrete yard and store ???

An appropriately named house :eek:

They might yet open a coffee/gift shop to passing tourists !

(Search "Ballynahoulort Tralee" on Google maps)

Another example here http://goo.gl/maps/qP2p1

Although, looking how that building is so close to the line I'm guessing it was a railway level crossing cottage at one point. Either way, bulldozer or slight diversion and everyones happy.

And thats one sad looking donkey across the road

gobnaitolunacy

RikkFlair wrote: »

Another example here http://goo.gl/maps/qP2p1

Although, looking how that building is so close to the line I'm guessing it was a railway level crossing cottage at one point. Either way, bulldozer or slight diversion and everyones happy.

And thats one sad looking donkey across the road

Looks like an LC cottage to me, the different sized windows and the colours of the slate indicate it was extended, those cottages were quite poky.

And the donkey does look a bit sad...

kingdumb

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/local-business/cie-vows-to-fight-all-claims-on-old-limerick-tralee-railway-line-1-4789734

gobnaitolunacy

kingdumb wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/local-business/cie-vows-to-fight-all-claims-on-old-limerick-tralee-railway-line-1-4789734

They could have chosen a less cumbersome moniker than NKARLAG.:D

amadain

CIE HAS insisted that it will fight any attempt by North Kerry farmers to claim ownership of the old Limerick-Tralee railway line.

A row over the property erupted two weeks ago when protesting farmers erected a barricade on the Kerry border outside Abbeyfeale to block 150 leisure walkers from accessing the disused line.
The farmers, who have formed a protest body called the North Kerry Abandoned Rail Line Action Group, are currently in dispute with CIE over the ownership of the old line, which could be worth up to €1 million.

However a spokesperson for CIE told the Limerick Leader that the rail line is its property, and will remain so.
“It is a legal issue at the moment. But the land registry clearly states that the land is in our ownership, and we will continue to assert that”.

The controversy has been sparked by plans to extend the Great Southern Trail, a walking and cycling route which runs along the old rail line from Rathkeale to the Kerry border, into county Kerry.
A tense stand-off took place for over three hours between farmers and walkers on February 2, after a barricade was erected on the border at Kilmorna to coincide with an organised leisure walk.

The incremental development of the Great Southern Trail in West Limerick has been carried out with funding from various statutory bodies, as part of a licensing agreement with CIE. The old railway line, which had its last scheduled passenger train in 1963, retains a public right-of-way.
The CIE spokesperson said that it is “very keen” for the trail to be extended into Kerry under the existing terms in force in Limerick. “We aren’t using the line and aren’t likely to again for the foreseeable future”.
However, the spokesperson said that it is important that the line remains in public ownership as it remains part of the national infrastructure grid, and is home to underground fibre optic cabling.

The stand-off between farmers and walkers on the border drew national media attention. Abbeyfeale-based Fine Gael councillor, Liam Galvin, urged all parties involved to engage in dialogue and seek a compromise solution.
“What happened the last day shouldn’t have happened. That’s not going to solve anything. I think all parties need to sit down and discuss the issues, so that they could all come to a proper agreement.
“There are a lot of farmers back there, and in fairness to them some of them do have genuine concerns. Dairy farmers need to bring their cattle in twice a day, and some of them have to cross that line to get there”.

Cllr Francis Foley said that the success of the Great Southern Trail in Limerick should reassure Kerry farmers that the development is nothing to fear.
“Negotiation and dialogue is the way forward. The trail is an ideal way to promote local tourism, and I would hope that the people on the Kerry side can embrace this going forward.”

delthedriver

amadain wrote: »

CIE HAS insisted that it will fight any attempt by North Kerry farmers to claim ownership of the old Limerick-Tralee railway line.

A row over the property erupted two weeks ago when protesting farmers erected a barricade on the Kerry border outside Abbeyfeale to block 150 leisure walkers from accessing the disused line.
The farmers, who have formed a protest body called the North Kerry Abandoned Rail Line Action Group, are currently in dispute with CIE over the ownership of the old line, which could be worth up to €1 million.

However a spokesperson for CIE told the Limerick Leader that the rail line is its property, and will remain so.
“It is a legal issue at the moment. But the land registry clearly states that the land is in our ownership, and we will continue to assert that”.


The controversy has been sparked by plans to extend the Great Southern Trail, a walking and cycling route which runs along the old rail line from Rathkeale to the Kerry border, into county Kerry.
A tense stand-off took place for over three hours between farmers and walkers on February 2, after a barricade was erected on the border at Kilmorna to coincide with an organised leisure walk.



The incremental development of the Great Southern Trail in West Limerick has been carried out with funding from various statutory bodies, as part of a licensing agreement with CIE. The old railway line, which had its last scheduled passenger train in 1963, retains a public right-of-way.
The CIE spokesperson said that it is “very keen” for the trail to be extended into Kerry under the existing terms in force in Limerick. “We aren’t using the line and aren’t likely to again for the foreseeable future”.
However, the spokesperson said that it is important that the line remains in public ownership as it remains part of the national infrastructure grid, and is home to underground fibre optic cabling.

The stand-off between farmers and walkers on the border drew national media attention. Abbeyfeale-based Fine Gael councillor, Liam Galvin, urged all parties involved to engage in dialogue and seek a compromise solution.
“What happened the last day shouldn’t have happened. That’s not going to solve anything. I think all parties need to sit down and discuss the issues, so that they could all come to a proper agreement.
“There are a lot of farmers back there, and in fairness to them some of them do have genuine concerns. Dairy farmers need to bring their cattle in twice a day, and some of them have to cross that line to get there”.

Cllr Francis Foley said that the success of the Great Southern Trail in Limerick should reassure Kerry farmers that the development is nothing to fear.
“Negotiation and dialogue is the way forward. The trail is an ideal way to promote local tourism, and I would hope that the people on the Kerry side can embrace this going forward.”

Thank you very interesting.

serfboard

amadain wrote: »

Abbeyfeale-based Fine Gael councillor, Liam Galvin, urged all parties involved to engage in dialogue and seek a compromise solution.
“What happened the last day shouldn’t have happened. That’s not going to solve anything. I think all parties need to sit down and discuss the issues, so that they could all come to a proper agreement.
“There are a lot of farmers back there, and in fairness to them some of them do have genuine concerns. Dairy farmers need to bring their cattle in twice a day, and some of them have to cross that line to get there”.

Liam, that's a crock of sh1t. Getting cattle back and forth across the line is not the concern of these people - it's having to surrender illegally-occupied land that's the problem.