General Star Trek thread

Indricotherium

Chakotay is kind of a non event alright.

The good story there would seem to have been some sort of simmering resentment toward Janeway for marooning them.

You see touches of how the crew might have split in some early episodes but it all goes away very quickly

Greyjoy

IvySlayer wrote: »

Jellico had a different style, he was a war time captain.

He pushed Geordi, yes taking away a third of his staff and making all sorts of changes, but Geordi got on with it (albeit with a little moan to Riker)

He pushed Troi, forcing her to the same standards as everyone else. Eventually as we know she starts taking pride in her uniform and seeks an extra pip on her collar.

Riker was acting like a spoiled brat and he ended up being rightly relieved. Riker failed in his duties whereas everyone else conformed to Jellicos new standards.

I think Jellico was written as a typical TNG admiral dick and we were supposed to hate him but Ronny Cox just owned that character.

Agree completely. Jellico wasn't a very likeable captain but everything he did was justified given the situation. The show expects you to side with Riker but that would only have worked if Jellico was proven to be the cliched incompetent Star Fleet Admiral. Don't forget it's Jellico's plan to scan the Cardassian ship and then mine the nebula which secures Picard's release.

Jellico had experience negotiating with Cardassians and his actions during the meetings are deliberately designed to keep them off balance. There's a moment where the Cardassians reveal knowledge of the secret mission and Jellico is placed in an impossible situation. There's no way an officer of his rank (captain) could reveal Star Fleet secrets but Riker castigates him for not handing the Cardassians an easy justification for declaring war on the Federation.

Look at how Riker acts when Jellico comes to his quarters to request him to pilot the shuttlecraft. Riker comes across as petulant and having a chip on his shoulder and I say this as someone who typically liked Riker throughout the series.

nyarlothothep

Myrddin wrote: »

Ha. I think he'd have come around in time tbh. Once the crises had passed, he'd have let things happen a bit more naturally, after all, he did rise to the rank of Captain, so there must be something in him that's able to inspire and lead people other than shouting orders. The damage to Riker & his relationship though would have been done, & I reckon Riker would have left the ship, likely taking up his own command.

Interesting. Sisko was an exceptional war time commander, but he wasn't a micro manager, that was the impression I got off Jellico. Sisko was tough and took no bs from his crew but wasn't petty either, he didn't have a small mind and was fairly deep/introspective, which allowed him to negotiate with unusually difficult situations that would have crumbled less imaginative/rule obsessed commanders. Imo he would be a good captain to serve under, Jellico would be like a male version of Janeway, although I'd say Janeway would be the worst captain of all. At least with Jellico if you just agree with everything he says like Data, you will become his valued unofficial second in command yes-man.

nyarlothothep

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Interesting. Sisko was an exceptional war time commander, but he wasn't a micro manager, that was the impression I got off Jellico. Sisko was tough and took no bs from his crew but wasn't petty either, he didn't have a small mind and was fairly deep/introspective, which allowed him to negotiate with unusually difficult situations that would have crumbled less imaginative/rule obsessed commanders. Imo he would be a good captain to serve under, Jellico would be like a male version of Janeway, although I'd say Janeway would be the worst captain of all. At least with Jellico if you just agree with everything he says like Data, you will become his valued unofficial second in command yes-man.

Sisko vs Eddington come to mind. Sisko went far far past the line there

nyarlothothep

Deleted User wrote: »

Sisko vs Eddington come to mind. Sisko went far far past the line there

Ah it wasn't a big deal though, none of the Maquis were killed, they were just made refugees and weren't they enemy combatants anyway? If he wanted to be truly evil or totally cross the line he would have killed them all. (PS destroying entire worlds was a highlight of the show, I really enjoyed the fact that Sisko went that far, much more realistic/gritty and really expanded the trek universe, it's why I'm starting to think DS9 is as good as TNG). I lack a detailed knowledge of the show though. Wasn't Eddington/the Maquis just a thorn in Starfleet's side at that point in terms of distracting them from the Dominion? Did Sisko break them through his ruthlessness and therefore solve the problem efficiently? I can't remember.

He targeted children and civilians and made it that they would die, if they did not leave their homes. All for a personal vendetta

degrassinoel

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Did Sisko break them through his ruthlessness and therefore solve the problem efficiently? I can't remember.

Not really he just took Edington prisoner and the Jem Hadar systematically wiped the maquis out a while after that. Cruel even by dominion standards.

Even more so that i just watched the bloodlines episode of TNG last night where the cardassian/federation treaty was signed, handing over worlds to cardassia and the Indian people who'd settled on one of them left the federation, which was partially the ground for the maquis insurgency

nyarlothothep

degrassinoel wrote: »

Not really he just took Edington prisoner and the Jem Hadar systematically wiped the maquis out a while after that. Cruel even by dominion standards.

Even more so that i just watched the bloodlines episode of TNG last night where the cardassian/federation treaty was signed, handing over worlds to cardassia and the Indian people who'd settled on one of them left the federation, which was partially the ground for the maquis insurgency

Yikes, that's pretty hard hitting. The Indians still getting screwed in the 24th century. That would be grounds for any rebellion.

degrassinoel

Yeah it came up a few times in the episode too, one of Picard's ancestors was apparently part of a slaughter of the same tribe 700 years beforehand. Plus this tribe had settled on the new world before the federation was formed, and yet the federation handed it over to Cardassia relatively easily.

It gives some more credence to Chakotay's character in voyager too, not that i think they did it the right way or anything, it's just cannon to the lore in that episode

nyarlothothep

Deleted User wrote: »

He targeted children and civilians and made it that they would die, if they did not leave their homes. All for a personal vendetta

I was reading through the ep summary. Eddington was poisoning Cardassian worlds so Sisko just did the same thing in response. No one was actually killed, he said this in his log at the end of the episode, they were just relocated. It may have been personally motivated but he got the result he was looking for. As much as the Cardassians are dicks, what could Eddington expect running around destroying entire biospheres? That kind of action necessitated a swift and severe response imo, although what followed after the relocation was less than ideal. Which episode mentions that the Maquis are finished off by the Jem Hadar? Did Starfleet casually let it happen?

ForstalDave

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I was reading through the ep summary. Eddington was poisoning Cardassian worlds so Sisko just did the same thing in response. No one was actually killed, he said this in his log at the end of the episode, they were just relocated. It may have been personally motivated but he got the result he was looking for. As much as the Cardassians are dicks, what could Eddington expect running around destroying entire biospheres? That kind of action necessitated a swift and severe response imo. Which episode mentions that the Maquis are finished off by the Jem Hadar? Did Starfleet casually let it happen?

I vaguly remember it being mentioned when the jem'hadar joined the cardassians, Duket made reference to every world being cleared by the week or some such.

Myrddin

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Which episode mentions that the Maquis are finished off by the Jem Hadar? Did Starfleet casually let it happen?

It happened when Cardassia allied itself with the Dominion. The Dominion done the job for the Cardassians, and by then, the war had already begun.

degrassinoel

there was a specific one, where Sisko takes Edington out of Prison to find a bunch of already launched cloaked maquis torpedos - he and Edington end up in a secret maquis base where the Jem Hadar have all but wiped out the maquis, Edington's wife and a few others survived and were taken back with Sisko, Edington himself had the death he'd always wanted, outgunned, outnumbered and to the bitter end with a phaser in each hand. His last words were his wife's name.

As Sisko would have said, a romantic to the bitter end.

aptly named: Blaze of Glory - Season 5 e23

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

It happened when Cardassia allied itself with the Dominion. The Dominion done the job for the Cardassians, and by then, the war had already begun.

Voyager also mentions it once Barkley makes contact

degrassinoel

that's right, there was an episode with be'lanna using the holodeck with the safeties off in an attempt to "feel" what she'd heard from home about the maquis

Myrddin

Watching Enterprise at the moment, season 1 is a real, proper, slog. Only for I know it improves, I'd have stopped watching by now. Awful stuff, the early stories are so basic in comparison to DS9 & Voyager. The got the Vulcans so badly wrong too, it's incredible. Can't wait to finish the first season.

degrassinoel

I've just started it too, didn't like the pilot episodes at all, Archer was a dick, T'Pol was alright, except the catsuit she wears is very ..un-vulcan, it is a bloody catsuit too..

the 'fight or flight' episode S1 E3 was creepy in a good way though, liked that one. Until Hoshi gets neurotic about everything, even "sluggo"

Am at the Terra Nova episode atm, some decent acting and all, but overall the entire show is like a star trek tutorial for younger people

The Black Oil

TOS BTS pics.

http://geektyrant.com/news/rare-behind-the-scenes-set-photo-from-the-original-star-trek-series

IvySlayer

Myrddin wrote: »

Watching Enterprise at the moment, season 1 is a real, proper, slog. Only for I know it improves, I'd have stopped watching by now. Awful stuff, the early stories are so basic in comparison to DS9 & Voyager. The got the Vulcans so badly wrong too, it's incredible. Can't wait to finish the first season.

Positives

Some of Season 4
Mirror Universe

Negatives

Boring, bland whiney characters
Archer
T'Pol
Hoshi
Nazi Aliens
Temporal Cold War/Xindi arc
The stupid song
The decontamination porn scenes
The stupid last episode

Voyager at least had interesting characters and was watchable.

degrassinoel

Hoshi sure does whine a lot in s1

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Negatives

Boring, bland whiney characters
Archer
T'Pol
Hoshi
Nazi Aliens
Temporal Cold War/Xindi arc
The stupid song
The decontamination porn scenes
The stupid last episode

Voyager at least had interesting characters and was watchable.

Mayweather is insufferable in S1, & Reed isn't at all likeable yet either. I'm tolerating T'Pol, and the others are fine. Hoshi gets a fair bit of development, & I've always liked Archer anyway...I think he does a good job of representing a rather 'green' explorer, and matures/improves in S3 & S4. I'm a an of Trineer too, so Trip is fine by me.

The Nazi alien thing I dread, really dread. Isn't that the S4 opener, after the excellent S3 cliffhanger ending? Awful, awful stuff.

The temporal cold way stuff is sort of interesting, but completely neutered given we know it plays no part in future Treks, which seems bizarre.

The intro song I'm perfectly fine with, always have been (up until they ruin it from S3 onwards with a more pronounced beat.)

The de-con scenes are dreadful too, you have to wonder what they were thinking there given how impractical it would be every time a crew member was going to be off the ship.

The last episode is a travesty, no other way to say it. Enterprise fully redeems itself by S4, & to go and do that...

S3 has held up well, for boxset watching. The writing let that show down, the dialogue was cringe at times

degrassinoel

The first season was cringeworthy, pretty much everything Archer says sounds condescending at the beginning. That being said, i still like the guy, and his attitude settles down towards the end of the season when he starts figuring out that human ethics attitudes and cultures aren't always the right tool for the right job.

In fairness, he's the first real starship captain, so he's supposed to be clueless and yet the position is one of authority so he has to at least try to maintain that illusion too, all the while, the suliban and TCWar are happening all around him, random encounters with hostile aliens and the the Klingons are pissed off at everyone..
Plus the obvious friction between officers, specifically his science officer, and his comms officer who's even more clueless and out of her depth than he is.
His best mate is the chief engineer. Trip is just a likeable character though, probably the most natural actor in all of the crew

Phlox was good though, apart from him separating himself as an alien constantly, "you humans this and that, optimism captain!" Could have done that a little more subtly, or even narrated in his personal log, but decent nonetheless.

Hoshi was awful in the first season, i mostly blanked out anytime she was onscreen, that pineapple cake for Reed episode, cant remember it's name, but the way she was speaking to some of Reed's friends was atrocious, i'd have told her to fcuk off if she spoke to me like that lol, luckily she grows into a semi-decent character in the later seasons.

Bring on the spacemarines mako's in season 2 or is it 3?

I'm not looking forward to the one where reed and trip are in the hawaiian shirts trying to score.. that was dreadful but i'm enjoying the show again, i've only voyager to watch after this to complete my marathon, and tbh i dont even want to watch it, enterprise is as low as i'm willing to go for now.

Have to say though, DS9 is by far my favorite of the lot. Sisko was a fantastic commander/captain

AMKC

Myrddin wrote: »

Mayweather is insufferable in S1, & Reed isn't at all likeable yet either. I'm tolerating T'Pol, and the others are fine. Hoshi gets a fair bit of development, & I've always liked Archer anyway...I think he does a good job of representing a rather 'green' explorer, and matures/improves in S3 & S4. I'm a an of Trineer too, so Trip is fine by me.

The Nazi alien thing I dread, really dread. Isn't that the S4 opener, after the excellent S3 cliffhanger ending? Awful, awful stuff.

The temporal cold way stuff is sort of interesting, but completely neutered given we know it plays no part in future Treks, which seems bizarre.

The intro song I'm perfectly fine with, always have been (up until they ruin it from S3 onwards with a more pronounced beat.)

The de-con scenes are dreadful too, you have to wonder what they were thinking there given how impractical it would be every time a crew member was going to be off the ship.

The last episode is a travesty, no other way to say it. Enterprise fully redeems itself by S4, & to go and do that...

I too am fine with the theme tune up until they ruin it. They thought doing that would give it more of a modern beat and make it better instead they ruined it.

The last episodes are good the These are the Voyages episode was a big big big disappointment. It is not even on Enterprise episode it is basically an extra Next Gen episode. Most people do not call it the last Enterprise episode and I agree. That was the 3 part episodes before that.

Kiith

I stopped with Enterprise after the Nazi aliens appeared. Just totally put me off it. I know it's supposed to get better in the later seasons, but anytime i've gone back to watch it again, i just don't get very far.

Might try do a full viewing though, from TOS up to Voyager, over the summer.

Indricotherium

Kiith wrote: »

I stopped with Enterprise after the Nazi aliens appeared. Just totally put me off it. I know it's supposed to get better in the later seasons, but anytime i've gone back to watch it again, i just don't get very far.

Might try do a full viewing though, from TOS up to Voyager, over the summer.

Jesus would you not save that sort of thing for the winter.

Get out and enjoy the bright evenings in the summer !!

Trek will still be there in the winter when it's too manky and dark to enjoy a walk or a run outside

helimachoptor

thought the mako's were a good addition, while still early days in Rods vision, having some space marines with kick ass guns i thought was different.


I have always been a big fan of Bakula, I really think he played the "pioneer" captain very well.

Too much cheek blowing enphasis on the dialogue from him though. It's as if he was trying to distance himself from Sam in quantum leap

_Kaiser_

ENT had a handful of decent episodes, the highlight being the 2-part Mirror Universe episodes and the Borg one (even though the writers/producers tried to spoof their way through it by not specifically calling them The Borg)

The rest are generally a slog. Even the Xindi season is only about average - certainly nowhere near the standard of say the later DS9 seasons.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

ENT had a handful of decent episodes, the highlight being the 2-part Mirror Universe episodes and the Borg one (even though the writers/producers tried to spoof their way through it by not specifically calling them The Borg)

The rest are generally a slog. Even the Xindi season is only about average - certainly nowhere near the standard of say the later DS9 seasons.

Enterprise has a better first 3 opening seasons than DS9, to me, honestly. It was JUST getting into its stride, with Romulan war on the horizon and birth of the Federation as the goal