3:30 or bust!

menoscemo

belcarra wrote: »

I think as long as you're getting the extra miles in during GA runs and aren't adversely affecting any other hard sessions then you're probably doing it ok.
If you find the GA sessions impacting upon an LSR or an Interval session then cut back the effort on the GA run next time is what I would take from it.
Therefore, a hill session may be a bit high on the effort levels in this instance!!

Lads, I never really saw where P&D prescribed paces for the different runs, rather I just made sure the GA runs felt easy and fell within the prescribed HR limits. If you do them at a constant HR (+ or - a few BPM) then you are training to your current abilities not your goal ability. It is also important to make sure the HR doesn't creep too high towards the end of the GA runs. When you can maintain a constant pace at a constant HR for 10+ miles it is a good sign of aerobic development.

belcarra

Wednesday 11th Apr - Rest Day
I had a bit of a sore foot today and then was booked for most of the evening so I decided to call it a rest day. Slight rearrangement of the weekly schedule and everything is back on track!

Thursday 12th Apr - 20.0km (Mini) LSR
Met Phil after work in the Park this evening and we hit off for a 19km run @ 5:30 pace. First half of the run was fine but second half saw more and more small complaints of effort and achy joints and limbs. No doubt it's residual from Connemara. Will keep my next two runs slow before I do the 8km race on Sunday.
Even with all the old man sounds we were making we decided to tack on an extra kilometre to bring us up to the round 20km for the day.

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|5/12|110.3
Total|80/103|1,206.2

dev123

belcarra wrote: »

Update on Training Paces:

Session:|Pace/km:|Pace/mile:
VO2Max|4:07|6:38
LT|4:25|7:06
Marathon Pace|4:58|8:00
LSR|5:30|8:51
General Aerobic|5:45|9:15
Recovery Run|6:00|9:39

Hi belcarra,

I've been following your log for a while now as I would be a few months behind you in terms of progression. Well done on the training this far. 3.30 will be in the bag sooner rather that later.

With regards to your training paces, I'm following Daniel's at the moment and use his VDot calculator to caculate pace:

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

The calculator works by putting in your most recent race time. So, for example, plug in a 3:30 marathon and you get an easy pace of 9:27 min/mile, a threshold pace of 7:33min/mile and interval pace of in or around 7min/mile. These are the training paces for someone who has a 3:30 marathon not someone trying to achieve a 3:30 marathon.

These values would be at odds with your current training paces with you tempo pace down around Daniels interval pace.

When using the VDot I have always gone up a point or two on the scale just to push myself but according to Daniels a threshold pace of 7.06min/mile is for someone who has completed a 3:15 marathon.

Just wondering if you are training at the right intensities or is the 3.30 marathon a worst case scenario and you would be hoping to get closer to 3.20?

Best of luck with your training

belcarra

Hi Dev123,
I actually have JD's book at home but have only glanced at it in the past. At the moment I'm following P&D's Advanced Marathoning and that is where I have been getting my paces from. They have various plans outlined with specific runs for each session going by these pace definitions. Therefore I'm quite happy to use these target paces while I'm still using this plan. Plus, (apart from the GA pace as mentioned above) I find the target paces pretty accurate.

If I was to start matching JD's pace definitions to my P&D plan I think they would probably act against each other. Given that I will be finished with P&D after Cork I'll probably take a little bit of time to return to JD and see what he has to say now that I'm very familiar with P&D.
And, if ever in doubt about a plan all you really need to do is check the results...P&D brought me from being stuck around 4:20-4:30 down to 3:51 in one fell swoop and hopefully down to 3:30 after June 4th :P.

I have seen the calculator in use before for the VDot table thread. For argument sake take my 5km PB which was my most recent race. 20:33 gives a predicted marathon time of 3:17:29. Now, while I am aiming for 3:30 I could manage a little faster if things go well but I'd be very surprised to go anywhere near 3:17 in Cork (Maybe a later marathon possibly, but one step at a time!).
Also, I note the table refuses to give an interval time for either 1200m or 1mile which seems odd given that P&D suggest that shorter intervals are not quite as appropriate as longer intervals for marathon training. Therefore I would have expected the situation to be reversed in the table, i.e. 400m intervals to be empty but 1200m & 1mile intervals to have a value?

Anyways, that's what I'm doing for the time being. As I say I may revisit JD in more detail come my next marathon cycle.
Best of luck in your own training in the meantime - What are your target races/times?

BobMac104

J.D doesnt give interval times for 1200 and a mile at that vdot but does give repetition times for those distances for your VDOT (same as me as it happens).

dev123

belcarra wrote: »

Hi Dev123,
I actually have JD's book at home but have only glanced at it in the past. At the moment I'm following P&D's Advanced Marathoning and that is where I have been getting my paces from. They have various plans outlined with specific runs for each session going by these pace definitions. Therefore I'm quite happy to use these target paces while I'm still using this plan. Plus, (apart from the GA pace as mentioned above) I find the target paces pretty accurate.

If I was to start matching JD's pace definitions to my P&D plan I think they would probably act against each other. Given that I will be finished with P&D after Cork I'll probably take a little bit of time to return to JD and see what he has to say now that I'm very familiar with P&D.
And, if ever in doubt about a plan all you really need to do is check the results...P&D brought me from being stuck around 4:20-4:30 down to 3:51 in one fell swoop and hopefully down to 3:30 after June 4th :P.

I have seen the calculator in use before for the VDot table thread. For argument sake take my 5km PB which was my most recent race. 20:33 gives a predicted marathon time of 3:17:29. Now, while I am aiming for 3:30 I could manage a little faster if things go well but I'd be very surprised to go anywhere near 3:17 in Cork (Maybe a later marathon possibly, but one step at a time!).
Also, I note the table refuses to give an interval time for either 1200m or 1mile which seems odd given that P&D suggest that shorter intervals are not quite as appropriate as longer intervals for marathon training. Therefore I would have expected the situation to be reversed in the table, i.e. 400m intervals to be empty but 1200m & 1mile intervals to have a value?

Anyways, that's what I'm doing for the time being. As I say I may revisit JD in more detail come my next marathon cycle.
Best of luck in your own training in the meantime - What are your target races/times?

You are definitely correct to stick with whats working. IIRC Daniel's doesn't recommend interval reps of longer than 2-3 minutes. I'm open to correction on this but I think that is the reason he doesn't give paces for the longer distances. It might be worth checking the Interval chapter of the book but I think thats his reasoning.

Daniel's does more of the interval work in the early phase of the marathon cycle and then the majority of key sessions have tempo intervals of between 6 and 12 minutes with the shorter intervals being repeats. Some of them are a killer but I've definitely seen results with them.

I'm running in Limerick on the May Bank Holiday Sunday and am just looking to get the 4 hour monkey off my back. I got around a tough enough track in the Ballybunion half in 1:45:22 so one more long run this weekend and hopefully that will see me through. Berlin in September will be the main target with somewhere around 3:40-3:45 being the target.

Best of luck in Cork. You have nice mileage under your belt this year so far which will definitely stand to you

belcarra

dev123 wrote: »

You are definitely correct to stick with whats working. IIRC Daniel's doesn't recommend interval reps of longer than 2-3 minutes. I'm open to correction on this but I think that is the reason he doesn't give paces for the longer distances. It might be worth checking the Interval chapter of the book but I think thats his reasoning.

Daniel's does more of the interval work in the early phase of the marathon cycle and then the majority of key sessions have tempo intervals of between 6 and 12 minutes with the shorter intervals being repeats. Some of them are a killer but I've definitely seen results with them.

I'm running in Limerick on the May Bank Holiday Sunday and am just looking to get the 4 hour monkey off my back. I got around a tough enough track in the Ballybunion half in 1:45:22 so one more long run this weekend and hopefully that will see me through. Berlin in September will be the main target with somewhere around 3:40-3:45 being the target.

Best of luck in Cork. You have nice mileage under your belt this year so far which will definitely stand to you

Interesting, I may have to bring the book home to Mayo this weekend to do a bit of advance reading!

I'm a bit peeved that I didn't take a gamble and book either Berlin or Chicago myself in time for this autumn. Hopefully next year I will manage one or the other!

average_runner

I find the vdot table to be very misleading. For example when i am doing 1000m and 800m repititions, i am going finding it alot easier to do it faster than what the vdot table suggest. Same for my tempo run. My tempo run for 40 mins is now around 7.14 but vdot would say around 7.30 for me!!

All very confusing i find it.

dev123

belcarra wrote: »

Interesting, I may have to bring the book home to Mayo this weekend to do a bit of advance reading!

I'm a bit peeved that I didn't take a gamble and book either Berlin or Chicago myself in time for this autumn. Hopefully next year I will manage one or the other!

Berlin sold out in 8 days or something like that so make sure you get in nice and early for next year.

dev123

average_runner wrote: »

I find the vdot table to be very misleading. For example when i am doing 1000m and 800m repititions, i am going finding it alot easier to do it faster than what the vdot table suggest. Same for my tempo run. My tempo run for 40 mins is now around 7.14 but vdot would say around 7.30 for me!!

All very confusing i find it.

How did you calculate the 7.14 tempo pace?

Is that 7.30 tempo pace the adjusted time? Table 7.2 (I think) in the book calculates tempo run paces which are dependent on the length of time you are running. So an example would be the VDot calculator giving a tempo pace of 7.30min/miles which you would use for a 20 minute run. But move out to a 40 minute run and you add in or around 15-20 seconds per mile to that pace.

(Sorry for the hijack belcarra )

average_runner

I looked at the vdot table for my 10k time, and it gave me 7.30.

My 7.14 time is what i do each week with the club for 40 mins.

Aiming for 43:59 for 10k next week, so be interesting to see how it works!!

belcarra

average_runner wrote: »

Aiming for 43:59 for 10k next week, so be interesting to see how it works!!

I can see it now...the pair of us battling it out all the way down the finishing 300m!
We should say hello before the race as if we were to pace each other maybe mid 43:xx would be possible?

average_runner

Aye, that be a good idea. Pacing each other would help loads.

Marthastew

belcarra wrote: »

I'm a bit peeved that I didn't take a gamble and book either Berlin or Chicago myself in time for this autumn.

I thought you were coming to Berlin, it won't be the same without you;) what will CL and I do? it's just as well digger and Mr Stew aren't letting us down;);)... I suppose now you're going to tell me that Philip isn't coming to Berlin either:rolleyes:
I was planning on following your log and training over the summer as you are generally the voice of reason and a man who knows his stuff

Thank God I just ordered another P&D book...

BobMac104

BobMac104 wrote: »

J.D doesnt give interval times for 1200 and a mile at that vdot but does give repetition times for those distances for your VDOT (same as me as it happens).

Sorry just had a look i got that very wrong.

belcarra

Friday 13th Apr - 11.0km General Aerobic Run + 8 Strides
This run was meant to be at 5:45 pace but the first two km I kept going too fast. Eventually I managed to bring it back down closer to target but this felt quite slow. After 6km I began the 8 strides which helped release the pent up speed in the legs. Of course the strides also served to make the av pace 5:35 by the end but happy enough with the session regardless.
Felt much fresher than yesterday.

Saturday 14th Apr - 8.2km Recovery Run
I ran the race route with my brother a day early as my prescribed recovery run. Nice and handy but did have to tell the brother to slow down a few times when the pace was creeping towards 5:20's.
Felt good again and very fresh by the end.

Sunday 15th Apr - 8.0km Belcarra 8km Race
A lovely day for this race as 270 people turned up for the inaugral Belcarra 8km race. This was a great crowd given that many had made the trip to Dublin for both the National 10km champs and the Mayo v Kerry League semi-final (Up Mayo!).

The course is very flat with only tiny bumps and a small hill at 2.5km. The race started and finished within 40m of each other in the centre of the village and after a few words from local Fine Gael TDs/Councillors we were off.

I had formulated a plan just before the off for a 4:15 av pace which would allow a target of 34mins. Everyone started too fast as usual but I managed to be pretty disciplined so after 500m I was averaging 4:10/km and it was feeling alright. A local guy (CC) I know was about 20m ahead of me at this stage and I made him my target for the race as we had similar thoughts beforehand - hope for 33.xx but would settle for 34.xx. We went through the 1km marker in 4:11 pace.

The next km was pretty flat and non eventful but I managed to claw back a few more places and kept to 4:10. Km3 presented the lone small hill in the race - 10m rise over 250m. Up and over that pretty easily and now it was flat all the way to the finish.

At the km3 marker the split had slowed to 4:16 but I was still feeling good. The gap to CC was still 20m but I was gaining on the guy in between us and by km4 he was passed. Yet somehow the split had slowed to 4:20. I pushed on a bit at this stage to narrow the divide to CC and by km5 it was down to about 10m after a 4:16 split.

I could tell he was beginning to find it tough and everytime I got closer he would kick on a little to keep a distance between us. I kept it steady for the next while and was through km6 in 4:22, my slowest km of the day.

Again at this stage I gave a burst and we were now in touching distance but another dash from CC saw him open a 5m gap almost instantaneously. I figured that these bursts were going to be the undoing of him later so was biding my time.

Km7 was done in 4:18 and we were now in the windup part of the race. I managed to get onto his shoulder at this stage and had a quick word to tell him keep it going as I wanted for him to push me all the way for a time rather than a place. I think I encouraged him a little too much though because a few secs later he was back in front again!

With 500m to go I decided to make my move. I went past and kept quite this time before opening a 20m gap on him. I now had about 300m left but was going full tilt. I began to wane a little and dreaded that I had gone too soon. As my mind was full of these negative thoughts I could feel him closing the gap with every stride. I then committed the schoolboy error of looking over my shoulder - not once, but twice!! What a gobshte!! That gave him the impetus and with 100m to go he was a couple of steps behind me. The finish line was positioned around a sharp left hander so when we were on the corner he came up on my outside. I tried one last push for the final 50m but it was too much and my right knee half buckled!! I almost fell to the ground but just kept it going to avoid major embarrassment! By the time I had recovered he was 3m ahead with 20m to go so unfortunately too much to make up as I ran out of road. He finished in 33:59 and me in 34:00:rolleyes:. My garmin says 33:59.6 and that was about as official as things got today but I think I better just call it 34mins and use it to drive me on for the next 8km I enter!

Great race though and really enjoyed the tactical aspect even if I did come out the wrong side of it in the end! Marshalling was superb, course was very fast and the spread afterwards was top notch!
Definitely will be back next year!! (But then I would say that anyways!!)

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|8/15|137.5
Total|83/106|1,233.4

beeduybe

Have you reached such legendary status out west that they have started naming races after you?

belcarra

...and even a village too!!

average_runner

I think you could be breaking 43 and not 44 on Sat at the k-club

belcarra

Just updating the table to reflect a few new pbs and a giant 1:53 off my 8km race yesterday:Distance:|Pre-2011 PB:|End-2011 PB:|2011 Improvement:|End 2012 target:
2m|N/A|13:22|N/A|12:50
3m|N/A|20:27|N/A|20:30
5km|24:19|20:33|3:21|19:59
8km|38:17|34:00|2:11|34:49
5 Mile|38:19|36:40|1:39|34:59
10km|47:55|44:25|3:30|42:59
10 Mile|01:22:16|01:17:17|4:59|01:14:59
½ Marathon|01:44:31|01:40:20|4:11|01:37:29
15 Mile|02:25:35|02:25:35|0:00|01:59:59
¾ Marathon|N/A|02:39:45|N/A|02:34:59
Marathon| 04:21:40|03:51:30|30:10|03:29:59
50km|N/A| N/A|04:43:58|04:44:59
39.3 Mile|N/A|N/A|06:37:53|06:20:00


So, 3mile, 8km & 50km have been ticked off for under target in 2012 so far.
I hope to hit a few more over the next 8 weeks or so, namely:
5k, 5 mile, 10k, Half Marathon and the Marathon.

belcarra

average_runner wrote: »

I think you could be breaking 43 and not 44 on Sat at the k-club

It's looking good for that alright. I think 9mins should be plenty for the extra 2km on a flat course so hopefully I might even make it into the 42:xx...

belcarra

Monday 16th Apr - Rest Day
Unplanned rest day but was still feeling tired after yesterdays race and the crappy weather didn't help matters much to convince me other than to stay indoors!

Tuesday 17th Apr - 23.3km LSR with 7km at MP
This weeks LSR was brought forward to today in order to minimise impact on next weekends 10km race. Of course i forgot to take into account the impact of Sunday's race on this tough session!

Plan was 16km @ LSR pace (5:30/km) and then 11km @ MP (4:55-5:00/km). However after 2km of the slow effort I was experiencing huge amounts of indigestion from a crappy dinner @ lunchtime (Thought I was being smart but that backfired!) and struggled with this for the rest of the run. Also, the top of my quads were still quite stiff and they were at me from the start of the run as well. I managed to tick off the 16km through varying amount of discomfort before getting back to the car for a quick drink of water.

Once back running it was a brief warm-up to marathon pace and we were into the MP kms. First one down the Kyber was handy as one might expect but they got progressively more difficult after that. We did a lap of the Memorial Gardens and after 5km my effort levels were almost as high as my discomfort levels so when I had 7 done I decided to end it there and took the opportunity of returning to my car to walk/stretch/jog in order to aid the recovery process.

So, this was the first LSR I have done which incorporates MP effort. Not a runaway success by any means but plenty of food for thought such as:

1. Don't plan them too close to a previous high effort run.
2. Stretch well/better after the high effort runs.
3. The Memorial Gardens are a much calmer alternative to the Park on a windy day.
4. Don't have spicy beef for lunch beforehand!:eek:

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|9/17|160.8
Total|84/108|1,256.7

belcarra

Wednesday 18th Apr - 8.0km Recovery Run
Very stiff and sore again this evening heading out and although it got a little better by the end I'm still far off 100%. All easy runs until Saturday in the hope of being fresh again for racetime!


Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run

January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|10/18|168.8
Total|85/109|1,264.7

belcarra

Thursday 19th Apr - 14.0km GA Run with 10 Strides
Kept most of this run bang on GA pace (5:45/km) apart from the strides which were quite doable. Main problem with these were I was doing them on very poorly lit paths and my Garmin doesn't do sound/alerts. Therefore I had to look at the watch, fiddle with buttons to get the backlight working, avoid the broken bits of footpath and street crossings all while trying to finish off each set!! I think I need to do these in a park during daytime hours:rolleyes:
The Hip Flexors/quads were much improved today but the groin muscles were kinda tight.

Friday 20th Apr - 6.5km GA Run with 10 Strides
A nice easy run in advance of the race tomorrow. Groin was still tight for this but after about 4km of taking it easy I began to raise the knees a bit more which appears to alleviate the groin issues. I reckoned that due to the hip flexor issues I had avoided raising the knees to the usual height and this resulted in me relying too heavily on push-off in each stride to keep me moving. Raising the knees back to normal heights relieves the pressure on over compensating with other muscles such as the groin. I hope that's it anyways!
Depending on how it's feeling tomorrow sub 43 may not be on this time around...


Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run

January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|12/20|189.3
Total|87/111|1,285.2

Marthastew

Well??????
How did it go

belcarra

Saturday 20th Apr - K-Club 10km Race
I got to the K-Club in plenty of time (Only 25mins from Santry!) and after registering returned to the car for a 45min chill out! Togged out at 10:30 and did a 10min warm-up during which I ran into TheBoyWonder. Finished off the warm-up and then tucked in for the race start without seeing any of the other boardsies. The weather was sunny and dry with only a bit of a swirling wind to contend with.

I lined up a bit too far back so by the time the race started I was about 5 secs crossing the line but there was about 200 people ahead of me! This though wasn't too bad as my plan was to take the first 3km @ 4:20/km and then speed up to 4:15/km for the remainder so I was very happy when km1 and km2 showed 3:19 & 3:20. Things were going to plan but I was putting in a bit more effort than I had expected beforehand. The legs were a little heavy and overall I wasn't feeling nearly as fresh as last weekends race.

Km 3 was facing straight into the wind and this resulted in a 4:28 km which surprised me as I thought I should be closer to the target 4:20.
Km4 was with the aid of the wind and took 4:18 so I was back close to target. But I knew if this was all I was capable with the wind it was highly unlikely that sub 43 would be on the cards today.

Km5 was in the opposite direction to km3 yet the wind was back in our faces again!:rolleyes: This took 4:24 and seemed to confirm my earlier thoughts about my target time. At this stage I decided to keep plugging away regardless and to get as big a PB as possible. 5km total time was 21:46.

Km6 was pretty much a copy of km3 and completed in an identical 4:28 time. When i took the left hand turn I knew the worst of the wind was done with. Km7 had to be a quick one to get me back towards a good time but this was a 4:20. A 4:26 and 4:24 followed for kms 8 & 9 and when I got to the 9km marker I pushed on a little and passed a handful of runners but that was it. I settled in ahead of them but even though I felt the effort raising the speed didn't seem to agree! With 750m to go the course started to fall away towards the K Club and a few secs were saved but what goes down must come back up and the final incline (it hardly merits being labelled a hill!) began with 300m to go. I pressed on here and managed to pass another 3 or 4 who were fading early and crossed the line in a time of 43:16 by my watch. A little disappointed not to dip below 43mins but happy to get a PB by 1:09.

Finally caught up with TBW after the race who did a great time of 42:56 - He was a consistent 100m ahead of me the whole race but I never looked like bridging the gap. Chatted with Claralara, Digger and Meno as well. CL produced another fantastic time but poor old Meno's nerves got the better of him had stomach issues and had to pull out half way through the race. Also briefly met Mithril who did 37:4x I think.

Great race, set-up, course, facilities, grub, etc. One I fully intend to do again next year.

Saturday 20th Apr - 9.1km Recovery Run
I dropped in to the Phoenix Park on the way home for a recovery run to help the legs recover more quickly than last week. Lets see how that plays out...:cool: It was a bit of a struggle to keep the pace down after the faster pace earlier so it resulted in an av pace of 5:45 (GA Pace) rather than 6:00 pace.

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|14/21|189.3
Total|89/112|1,304.3

beeduybe

Congrats on the PB. 9k recovery run on the way home? You're either dedicated or crazy

irfrm

Great effort, and well done on PB, I'm sure you'll lower this during the year, must agree there something crazy about a 9 km cool down:p
You beat my PB by 24 sec:eek:

belcarra

Sunday 21st Apr - Rest Day
I had intended going for a run today but things got away from me and laziness set in so wrote it off as a rest day instead.

Monday 20th Apr - 19.0km Medium Slow Run
Called into the Park on the way home this evening for a MSR which was originally planned for tomorrow. I changed it to today as I'm hoping to go along to the first event in the IMRA Summer League in Bray on Wednesday. I figure I need to strengthen the legs in order to add some speed more quickly so I'll be planning to use it as a training run rather than racing flat out.

Todays run itself went welll and I was spot on for my target pace of 5:30/km. I was really lucky with the weather too as there was glorious evening sunshine for the majority of the run (even if it was pretty chilly in the shade!). A few niggles/aches resulting from the race at the weekend but in general much better recovered than I was after last weekend's race. I think it's just the shock of the faster training catching up with me and am expecting recovery to be much better from here on, now that the legs are getting used to the weekly bashing!!:D

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|15/23|208.3
Total|90/114|1,323.3

belcarra

Tuesday 21st Apr - 7.8km Recovery Run
Nice easy recovery run this evening. As ever struggled to keep the pace slow but averaged around 5:47/km with an Av HR of 122bpm.

Looking back at last nights run of 19km I realised that the AvHR was 130bpm which is quite low even for me. I'll take it as a good sign!!:)

Month|No. of Runs|Kms Run
January|29/31|405.7
February|24/29|365.6
March|22/31|310.0
April|16/24|216.1
Total|90/114|1,331.1