"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

LXFlyer

Polar101 wrote: »

So €2080 a year for Bus+Rail+Luas with the Leap card, that's a crazy price.

Well what did you expect it to be?

The Annual ticket costs €2,180 currently. Surely this will have to be repriced at some stage?

I cannot see any logic in LEAP capping customers being allowed effectively the same product for €100 less.

Obviously taxsaver makes that ticket cheaper, but many people cannot avail of that. A monthly/annual period pass should always be cheaper.

bg07

lxflyer wrote: »

Well what did you expect it to be?

The Annual ticket costs €2,180 currently. Surely this will have to be repriced at some stage?

I cannot see any logic in LEAP capping customers being allowed effectively the same product for €100 less.

Obviously taxsaver makes that ticket cheaper, but many people cannot avail of that. A monthly/annual period pass should always be cheaper.

One thing to bear in mind is that the annual cap is not €2080 if your commute involves an expresso bus. There is a €2.50 limit on how much of an expresso fare goes towards the cap. Therefore some people will regularly go €3 per day over the cap ((€4-€2.50)x2). I think this setup of the system has made the cap needlessly complicated for large volume of commuters.

A cap should be a cap for regular journeys. Fair enough having the airlink and night link as exceptions/partial exceptions though

LXFlyer

bg07 wrote: »

One thing to bare in mind is that it isnt that the annual cap is not €2080 if your commute involves an expresso bus. There is a €2.50 limit on how much of an expresso fare goes towards the cap. Therefore some people will regularly go €3 per day over the cap ((€4-€2.50)x2. I think this setup of the system has made the cap needlessly complicated for large volume of commuters

That is not the vast majority of commuters though.

The number of Xpresso services is extremely limited.

Bear in mind also that there has to be a balance struck between what the customer pays and farebox revenue for the operators.

bg07

lxflyer wrote: »

That is not the vast majority of commuters though.

The number of Xpresso services is extremely limited.

Bear in mind also that there has to be a balance struck between what the customer pays and farebox revenue for the operators.

I know the majority of commuters do not use expressos but a sizeable amount of people do use them in the mornings and evenings. Plus people might use them for short trips in the city centre (city centre to Belfield for example) and use the right hand validators and not realise not it is not fully included in their cap. I just think it will cause confusion.

I understand that revenues have to be protected but a lot of people. But I think this cap system for expressos will be difficult to communicate clearly. And the average person who doesn’t pay much attention to this sort of thing may not pick up on or understand the cost implications to them or using the expresso service with leap.

LXFlyer

bg07 wrote: »

I know the majority of commuters do not use expressos but a sizeable amount of people do use them in the mornings and evenings. Plus people might use them for short trips in the city centre (city centre to Belfield for example) and use the right hand validators and not realise not it is not fully included in their cap. I just think it will cause confusion.

I understand that revenues have to be protected but a lot of people. But I think this cap system for expressos will be difficult to communicate clearly. And the average person who doesn’t pay much attention to this sort of thing may not pick up on or understand the cost implications to them or using the expresso service with leap.

Most regular users who are using Xpresso services are going to have a prepaid ticket as it is, be it monthly or annual, so I think you are overestimating the numbers that this will affect.

The LEAP pay-as-you-go epurse is still aimed at those people either making regular short journeys or occasional longer journeys.

The full range of existing prepaid period passes covers everyone else. That particularly covers Xpresso services.

Polar101

lxflyer wrote: »

Well what did you expect it to be?

The Annual ticket costs €2,180 currently. Surely this will have to be repriced at some stage?

I'd imagine most commuters do not use all three of bus+rail+luas. I was expecting the cap to be nearer the €1560 short hop bus+rail price. Maybe I was wrong to think they wanted the Leap card to be 'the' single product to use.

Still, over €2000 to use Dublin public transport is a crazy price.

Edit: didn't even realize there was such a product as a Bus/Rail/Luas annual ticket. Definitely "taxsaver only".

LXFlyer

Polar101 wrote: »

I'd imagine most commuters do not use all three of bus+rail+luas. I was expecting the cap to be nearer the €1560 short hop bus+rail price. Maybe I was wrong to think they wanted the Leap card to be 'the' single product to use.

Still, over €2000 to use Dublin public transport is a crazy price.

Edit: didn't even realize there was such a product as a Bus/Rail/Luas annual ticket. Definitely "taxsaver only".

Pay-as-you-go LEAP was never going to be "the" product for regular longer distance / multi-operator travel. That's what period passes are designed for.

As I said above - pay-as-you-go is for occasional users or for those who make regular short trips.

But the pricing of the period pass now needs to be reviewed as it is clearly out of line with the epurse.

Dravokivich

Hmmm... odd to see killcoole mention in a release from the nta copied by lxflyer earlier. Theres still no validators there right? Leap is unusable with that station just like broombridge.

Victor

Dravokivich wrote: »

Hmmm... odd to see killcoole mention in a release from the nta copied by lxflyer earlier. Theres still no validators there right? Leap is unusable with that station just like broombridge.

They were added to Kilcoole about 6-12 months ago.

Carawaystick

the NTA wrote:

The Authority has determined that the Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann and Luas multi-operator approved fare capping rates can be implemented from the 9th December 2013 and must be implemented by the 15th January 2014, unless there are technical reasons why this cannot be done.

This seems to say this will not happen. Leap is out 2 years now. Man went to the Moon in 8.
The NTA are paying these companies our money, and should stop if these companies do not implement this.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

This seems to say this will not happen. Leap is out 2 years now. Man went to the Moon in 8.
The NTA are paying these companies our money, and should stop if these companies do not implement this.

Given that the companies have been granted fare increases on the proviso that this is implemented on time, you may be wrong!

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Given that the companies have been granted fare increases on the proviso that this is implemented on time, you may be wrong!

They have been given millions of euros already. and we're 2 years into the leapcard system.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

They have been given millions of euros already. and we're 2 years into the leapcard system.

Which is a phased project.

AngryLips

Carawaystick wrote: »

They have been given millions of euros already. and we're 2 years into the leapcard system.

Which is about the same time frame between the launch of Oyster and fare capping to be introduced also.

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

Which is about the same time frame between the launch of Oyster and fare capping to be introduced also.

That was in 2005. If, after 8 years, we've learned nothing from the other implementations around the world, something is going terribly wrong.

bk

Meanwhile in Altanta they introduced their card and went completely cashless within 6 months.

This included an e-purse, period tickets and fully integrated ticketing (one ticket works across both train and bus for a continuing journey).

You can also buy tickets and credit online and it is automatically loaded on the card on the bus. And this from a car dominated US city!

Just goes to show how ridiculously slow and bad the leap card rollout is.

goingnowhere

markpb wrote: »

That was in 2005. If, after 8 years, we've learned nothing from the other implementations around the world, something is going terribly wrong.

Leap has 1 and 7 day, single and triple operator capping (caps also on Bus Eireann routes in Dublin), Oyster isn't even close

efb

goingnowhere wrote: »

Leap has 1 and 7 day, single and triple operator capping (caps also on Bus Eireann routes in Dublin), Oyster isn't even close

Oyster has one day capping no?

goingnowhere

Only single day capping in London

Seaswimmer

Just curious as to how the capping works if you buy a ticket for someone else as well as yourself through the driver. I assume its intelligent enough to only count the 1st fare towards the cap??

foggy_lad

Carawaystick wrote: »

This seems to say this will not happen. Leap is out 2 years now. Man went to the Moon in 8.
The NTA are paying these companies our money, and should stop if these companies do not implement this.

http://6311664e1a241bd4b58f-3999d26af054d711e4557be72bd8ff23.r3.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Leap-Card-Multi-Operator-Capping.pdf

3. Determination by the Authority
The Authority has determined that the Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann and Luas multi-operator approved fare capping rates can be implemented from the 9th December 2013 and must be implemented by the 15th January 2014, unless there are technical reasons why this cannot be done that are agreed by the Authority. Naturally, all three operators will have to implement the new multi-operator fare capping rates at the same time. Should the new capping rates not be introduced as per the above deadlines and where there is no acceptable reason for the delay, then current individual operator capping levels will be reduced by the Authority.

goingnowhere

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Just curious as to how the capping works if you buy a ticket for someone else as well as yourself through the driver. I assume its intelligent enough to only count the 1st fare towards the cap??

It has always considered the additional passengers as "non transit" and will not count to the cap. Time exceeded or not tagged on on exit on Irish Rail are also "non transit" events

clunked

Quick question about the leap card. Is the annual ticket leap card valid on the Bus Eireann 101 from Balbriggan to Dublin

L1011

goingnowhere wrote: »

It has always considered the additional passengers as "non transit" and will not count to the cap. Time exceeded or not tagged on on exit on Irish Rail are also "non transit" events

So you paying them for a full-rate single (not tagging off) doesn't count towards the cap even though you've paid for it? Bit money grabbing there.

LXFlyer

clunked wrote: »

Quick question about the leap card. Is the annual ticket leap card valid on the Bus Eireann 101 from Balbriggan to Dublin

No - they have not loaded Bus Eireann monthly/annual period passes onto the card yet.

Only pay-as-you-go, 1 day/7 day and for some reason both the 100X and 101 are exempt currently.

goingnowhere

MYOB wrote: »

So you paying them for a full-rate single (not tagging off) doesn't count towards the cap even though you've paid for it? Bit money grabbing there.

That counts, to the cap, its when the card is not tagged on and you go through an exit gate or you tag off after exceeding the max time then its a non transit event

Dravokivich

lxflyer wrote: »

No - they have not loaded Bus Eireann period passes onto the card yet.

Only pay-as-you-go and for some reason both the 100X and 101 are exempt currently.

would "1 day" and "7 days" not be considered period tickets?

LXFlyer

Dravokivich wrote: »

would "1 day" and "7 days" not be considered period tickets?

Sorry - I should have been clearer.

I was answering the question with regard to annual passes!

L1011

goingnowhere wrote: »

That counts, to the cap, its when the card is not tagged on and you go through an exit gate or you tag off after exceeding the max time then its a non transit event

Not quite as bad, but in both those cases you're still paying them full whack and getting nothing. The latter is particularly bad as if you didn't bother tagging off at all it would count.

Carawaystick

goingnowhere wrote: »

It has always considered the additional passengers as "non transit" and will not count to the cap. Time exceeded or not tagged on on exit on Irish Rail are also "non transit" events

Does this still apply even if Irish rail journeys take more than the time limit :
due to the late arrival of the incomming train
due to operational difficulties
due to low rail adhesion
due to IE allowing a railway fall into the sea
due to IE allowing a train derail and having single-line running
due to IE deciding to run short trains and customerd being left behind as they can't fit?