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"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

  • 25-11-2011 1:55pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,988 ✭✭✭✭ Flukey


    I am just about to bring my new Leap card into the strange world of public transport to test it. There are already several Leap threads going and we've already had some points about its usage raised in them. Maybe we can keep this thread for more specific feedback by the people who have actually got a card and leave the more general discussions on it to the other threads. So if you have some specific feedback from actually using the card put it in here, as briefly as possible. Then we can all use it when we are feeding back our experiences in the questionnaires we are all supposed to be getting. If anything arises here that people would like to discuss in more detail, switch to one of the other threads which already have a broad range of discussion about it that is likely to be relevant. Anyway, my Leap card and I are about to head out. Wish us luck!:D


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 Centrocampista


    Just got the new card. Wait for this - If I want to avoid the queue and use the machine on the right I have to pay €2.20
    (Only €1.90 with the old 10 journey travel 90)
    If im on a shorter journey I have to queue up and tell the driver my destination.
    I presume that I have to pay again if I change bus !


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,532 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Exactly.

    Again people need to understand that this is a test of the epurse facility.

    The final setup could be completely different.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    I presume that I have to pay again if I change bus !

    Yes!

    Even if the official record of the project shows otherwise, it is fairly clear that one company was kicking and screaming trying not to have changes made. Guess who!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,732 ✭✭✭ markpb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Exactly. Again people need to understand that this is a test of the epurse facility. The final setup could be completely different.

    Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life? :)

    They've had several years to decide what to do when ITS launches, why do you think they'll change their minds suddenly after it's launched? Alternatively, if you think they do have a plan for the future, why are they testing it with a different pricing scheme?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,266 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    Flukey wrote: »
    So if you have some specific feedback from actually using the card put it in here, as briefly as possible. Then we can all use it when we are feeding back our experiences in the questionnaires we are all supposed to be getting.

    Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if we all give the same feedback?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭ noelfirl


    monument wrote: »
    Yes!

    Even if the official record of the project shows otherwise, it is fairly clear that one company was kicking and screaming trying not to have changes made. Guess who!

    One company was probably kicking and screaming because they know that their subsidy is not going to increase in the short-medium term and that it may in fact go down. The stage fare system is antiquated and innefficient but the reality is that a flat fare may well negatively affect their revenue. We would all be delighted to wake up to a simplistic flat fare one morning but the politics seem to dictate otherwise.

    Considering DB have the Travel 90, I don't think they're that opposed to the idea of flat fare/complimentary change. By all acounts they had ideas about a flat fare back at the time of the euro changeover but it was vetoed by DoT (again based on budget considerations).


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,988 ✭✭✭✭ Flukey


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if we all give the same feedback?

    It is not exactly going to be like that. The idea is that we will see a bigger range of feedback here and that will get us all thinking and seeing how things work for others. We will get different perspectives on the issues and we'll all learn. Looking through the various Leap threads has already highlighted different things for me. We will still have issues that are more relevant to each of us. As a result, at the end of it all I still think we'll each be giving different feedback, but we'll be more informed and do it better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭ curryman


    Got My leap card today. One of the things they want us to do is top up the card (optional).
    Yet www.payzone.ie leap agents list doesn't seem up to date. I know Eason's Heuston station have the terminal to top up the leap cards so i wonder how many other shops have been left off the list.
    I know its still in the final test stage but you would think the topup agents list would be up to date.
    Anyone know of other shops not on the list


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭ Mushy


    Used on luas today. Very straight forward and saves me 35 cent on a single journey.

    Looking forward to using it on the bus, think thats the main crux of the card for now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,532 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    markpb wrote: »
    Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life? :)

    They've had several years to decide what to do when ITS launches, why do you think they'll change their minds suddenly after it's launched? Alternatively, if you think they do have a plan for the future, why are they testing it with a different pricing scheme?

    I'd accept that the NTA decide DB's fare structure and not DB.

    At the end of the day I'd far prefer a simple fare structure, such as a flat fare. But if that means that DB farebox income were to drop significantly on top of the several million per annum additional overheads to run this scheme then frankly it isn't a runner.

    DB relies on the farebox income to run the service given subsidies are falling even further - if that were to drop significantly I could only see one result - more service reductions.

    It's a catch 22 situation.

    In the current economic situation I don't think the company can afford that risk?

    Neither you nor I know what is planned in the New Year when cash fares go up - perhaps the LEAP card will retain the current prices.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,986 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'd accept that the NTA decide DB's fare structure and not DB.

    Neither you nor I know what is planned in the New Year when cash fares go up - perhaps the LEAP card will retain the current prices.

    The current informed speculation (ie:educated gossip :P) is that Leo V's Departmental thinking is leaning towards a 20% atb increase in Cash fares.

    If this is true then the level of any increase in Off-Bus Ticket Sales could still be significant.

    It's also my opinion that the arrival of the NTA on-scene has introduced a grey-area as to who is now responsible for Off-Bus Ticket Prices.....there may well be a form of patch-protection going on at the moment regarding this.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭ SandyfordGuy


    Used it on a bus with the non driver validator and Irish rail this morning, no real problems, apart from the guy at the gate who looked at me rather odd as if he didn't know what it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭ SandyfordGuy


    List of Leap Card agents now been updated on http://www.payzone.ie/ - huge choice now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭✭ emco


    Got one of these the other day, i use the bus every day and it is dreadful that there is no discount on the fare, its the same as paying cash. Its far cheaper to get the travel 90.

    The fact that its an integrated ticket doesn't justify the expense. For people that have shorter bus trips it could be helpful as there is no ticket that really accommodates them, although this is not an intentional design feature.

    How do people find the pricing on train or luas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,532 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I would imagine that the discounts will be implemented when the 2012 fare increases take place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭ SandyfordGuy


    Train pricing is the same as the Irish rail smartcard pricing, not used it on Luas yet, but I assume it is similar to the LUAS Smartcard pricing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    markpb wrote: »
    Would you accept a wager that DB will not change their pricing policy for at least the first year of the projects life? :)

    Based on how the information leaflet that accompanied the card is worded, I definitely wouldn't be betting against you.

    It was worded and laid out, that if you're using one of the stage fares, 1.20, 1.65, 1.85 or shopper fare then go to driver. If you're using >13 stage fare then tap card on validator on right hand side to get 2.20 fare.

    Unfortunately, I see ZERO discount on the 3 stage fares or shopper fare for use of LEAP.

    Remember Dublin Bus carry 120 million passengers a year for Irish Rails 38 million total (approx 20 million DART) and Luas's 25 million. So they can and will push against this if they see loss of revenue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    Got mine today. Worked fine on Dublin Bus.

    Only hassle I had was with driver trying to communicate with me that he'd like ticket placed flat on top of ticket machine reader rather than just held to it. Consisted of a series of hand singles and grunts rather than clear spoken words. Would lead me to question training drivers have had?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭ SandyfordGuy


    I'll be trying the same myself tonight to actually get a 1.85 fare and I'll report back how it goes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭ KD345


    Apologies if I missed it in one of the threads, but what is the website for the Leap Card?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,986 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    robd wrote: »
    Got mine today. Worked fine on Dublin Bus.

    Only hassle I had was with driver trying to communicate with me that he'd like ticket placed flat on top of ticket machine reader rather than just held to it. Consisted of a series of hand singles and grunts rather than clear spoken words. Would lead me to question training drivers have had?

    Hmmmm I'm assuming.....no wait...HOPING..that it's hand signals you refer to....:eek:

    Funnily enough,the current range of SmartCards tend to fail when users attempt to "Swipe" them across the remote reader.

    I experience extreme difficulty getting users to treat the Smart Card Symbol as a Bullseye by slapping the card up to it.

    Many people treat it in a reflex manner by swiping and I see this being a problem with ticket-machine transactions too.

    Only Northern Irish folk appear to understand how-stuff-works as they religiously (:p) place their Senior Smart Passes directly onto the reader,totally unaware that the Free-State technology will not communicate with Her Majestys Government version...:D

    A great learning opportunity was wasted by not calling the system the Bullseye card or similar and utilising the Dartboard symbol to its fullest...ho-hum....:cool:

    The other lesson in all of this is the total nonsense which Driver Interaction actually represents in a system designed to speed up and automate the entire process...It's like buying a Ferrari and yoking up a donkey to pull you along the M50....

    :(


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭ SandyfordGuy


    KD345 wrote: »
    Apologies if I missed it in one of the threads, but what is the website for the Leap Card?

    It will be leapcard.ie eventually when the public launch happens.

    They are on twitter at the moment http://www.twitter.com/leapcard


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Hmmmm I'm assuming.....no wait...HOPING..that it's hand signals you refer to....:eek:

    Oops. I do indeed mean signals. Absolutely the driver interaction part in the first place is terrible, however it is what it is.

    I think they need some kind of signage for launch that asks the user to place their card flat on reader (with pictures) rather than swiping it as you might for accessing a door. I also think drivers need to be instructed to use clear English in asking passenger to place card flat on reader as passengers are not mind readers. I'm very tech savvy and I didn't intuitively know this as most Near Field technology cards can just be swiped which is what I intuitively did. Obviously this situation is different as a button needs to be pressed to deduct fare but your average passenger will be totally unaware of this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,986 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    robd wrote: »
    Oops. I do indeed mean signals. Absolutely the driver interaction part in the first place is terrible, however it is what it is.

    I think they need some kind of signage for launch that asks the user to place their card flat on reader (with pictures) rather than swiping it as you might for accessing a door. I also think drivers need to be instructed to use clear English in asking passenger to place card flat on reader as passengers are not mind readers. I'm very tech savvy and I didn't intuitively know this as most Near Field technology cards can just be swiped which is what I intuitively did. Obviously this situation is different as a button needs to be pressed to deduct fare but your average passenger will be totally unaware of this.

    I agree Robd....€40+Million and 12 years is surely time enough to have a few oul Graphics lashed up for the launch.......?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,988 ✭✭✭✭ Flukey


    I used mine on the bus today. For the purpose of testing the system I went up to the driver and told him my destination. He said it if was a full fare I could do it directly at the normal validator. That's fair enough, but brings us back to the problem of when is it a full fare, in terms of stages travelled? Most people wouldn't know how many stages they go and the breakdown between fares in terms of stages travelled. So the argument for the flat fare gets some weight. Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,986 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    Flukey wrote: »
    I used mine on the bus today. For the purpose of testing the system I went up to the driver and told him my destination. He said it if was a full fare I could do it directly at the normal validator. That's fair enough, but brings us back to the problem of when is it a full fare, in terms of stages travelled? Most people wouldn't know how many stages they go and the breakdown between fares in terms of stages travelled. So the argument for the flat fare gets some weight. Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

    True Flukey,But that debate needed to be well and truly nailed down before introducing Leap as a product.

    It's not as if there has not been time to do the spadework.

    What we now have is an emasculated half cocked semi-automated automatic system which could have spelled the beginning of REAL improvements to a centuries old system devised for TWO-Person operation.....We need to get a grip....FAST !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,732 ✭✭✭ markpb


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    What we now have is an emasculated half cocked semi-automated automatic system which could have spelled the beginning of REAL improvements to a centuries old system devised for TWO-Person operation.....We need to get a grip....FAST !

    You know quite well that this won't happen. There was _never_ any intention of changing the fare/ticket situation - the card is just a carrier for the existing tickets along with an ePurse which will make life easier for people making 1.20/1.65 trips.


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭ The Rook


    I've a question that hasn't been covered .... after the testing period finishes (6th December or thereabouts?) will I still be able to use my Leap Card on the machines or will I have to wait until it's going into another set of testing exercises before I can use it again?

    So far though everythings going fine with mine though, no hassles at all.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Flukey wrote: »
    ...Of course on the whole flat fare, is it fair to charge someone who goes two or three stops the same as someone who goes from one terminus to the other, but that is another debate. Let's keep this as much to the Leap card as possible.

    It's a key issue at the hart of the Leap card's use and, given Dublin Bus' central road in public transport, also a key part to the question if the benefits of spending so much to bring in the system in the first place was worth it.

    The Rook wrote: »
    I've a question that hasn't been covered .... after the testing period finishes (6th December or thereabouts?) will I still be able to use my Leap Card on the machines or will I have to wait until it's going into another set of testing exercises before I can use it again?

    The system is live. This test phase -- really a soft launch -- is the final test phase.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,988 ✭✭✭✭ Flukey


    There wasn't any mention in the documentation that came with the Leap card for volunteers as to whether it would be possible to keep it and use it after the test period, or if it would purely have validity until the 7th of December. I presume we can continue to use it as there is no indication of it being a test card and it said we can top it up, and certainly if there are ones actually on sale. Typically, www.leapcard.ie is still not working, where possibly some of that kind of information might be available.


This discussion has been closed.
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