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"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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    #1802
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    Mr Simpson wrote: »
    You should still be able to pick up top ups at any payzone outlet
    Nope, the SPAR near me wouldn't. :-|


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    #1803
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1804
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,262 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    The Dublin Bus cap message now starts at €15 and starts counting down. No other details just yet.
    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Agreed.


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    #1805
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    April O Neill wrote: »
    Nope, the SPAR near me wouldn't. :-|

    This is exactly why The NTA need to get heavy with the Payzone operation....Either the ALL of the relevant Payzone agents facilitate the Leapcard product OR they lose the contract-Full Stop.

    The Leapcard online Top-Up load point selector simply offers the Payzone/Leapcard agent as the load point...it does not offer a specific Payzone Location,and nor should it.

    The Payzone brand has already shown it's willingness to play fast n loose by seeking an extra "levy" on top of the agreed Leapcard rates,so it would suggest that they do not want to become any further involved with the ITS concept.

    The NTA need to recognize that there is not a hope in hell of Leapcard achieving optimum popularity in the face of this nonsense.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1806
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    This is exactly why The NTA need to get heavy with the Payzone operation....Either the ALL of the relevant Payzone agents facilitate the Leapcard product OR they lose the contract-Full Stop.

    I don't even mind buying credit in a shop rather than online, it's as handy, but any shop that carries the payzone should allow online credit to be loaded. And she was quite snooty about it. :mad:


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    #1807
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    This is exactly why The NTA need to get heavy with the Payzone operation....Either the ALL of the relevant Payzone agents facilitate the Leapcard product OR they lose the contract-Full Stop.

    The Leapcard online Top-Up load point selector simply offers the Payzone/Leapcard agent as the load point...it does not offer a specific Payzone Location,and nor should it.

    The Payzone brand has already shown it's willingness to play fast n loose by seeking an extra "levy" on top of the agreed Leapcard rates,so it would suggest that they do not want to become any further involved with the ITS concept.

    The NTA need to recognize that there is not a hope in hell of Leapcard achieving optimum popularity in the face of this nonsense.
    The problem is you are asking retailers to carry out a service which has no economic benefit to them, they have to pay payzone for the machine have to pay for an internet connection, staff, rates, rent, electricity etc etc .

    Part of the problem is bodies like the NTA doing exclusive deals with one provider, yes they may squeeze a slightly better deal but in doing so the provider passes on the cost of that deal to the retailer who then tries to pass it on to the consumer. The margins are so tight I see some retailers will not accept debit or credit cards as payment as the retailers charges for those are greater than any commission.


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    #1808
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    April O Neill wrote: »
    I don't even mind buying credit in a shop rather than online, it's as handy, but any shop that carries the payzone should allow online credit to be loaded. And she was quite snooty about it. :mad:

    Why should they ? Are they being paid for it ?


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    #1809
    TheBandicoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭TheBandicoot


    cdebru wrote: »
    The problem is you are asking retailers to carry out a service which has no economic benefit to them, they have to pay payzone for the machine have to pay for an internet connection, staff, rates, rent, electricity etc etc .

    Could be argued that it brings people into the shop, where there they can then make an impulse buy. But I admit it is not an ideal situation and am not surprised problems are arising.


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    #1810
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    cdebru wrote: »
    The problem is you are asking retailers to carry out a service which has no economic benefit to them, they have to pay payzone for the machine have to pay for an internet connection, staff, rates, rent, electricity etc etc .

    Part of the problem is bodies like the NTA doing exclusive deals with one provider, yes they may squeeze a slightly better deal but in doing so the provider passes on the cost of that deal to the retailer who then tries to pass it on to the consumer. The margins are so tight I see some retailers will not accept debit or credit cards as payment as the retailers charges for those are greater than any commission.

    All well and good,but then WHY are the same retailers involved with Payzone at all if it's such a PROBLEM for them ?

    The issue here is the ongoing damage being done to Leapcard's public perception at the very time when it MOST requires positivity.

    Quite obviously Payzone have issues with individual shops,and the NTA now have issues with Payzone,but the prospective Leapcard user,migrating from cash,may just decide to say Stuff-It-All when faced with the scenarios being posted here....It ALL comes back to what 10 Years and €40+ Million of development spend actually buys in this country......it's looking like the answer is "Mild Disorganization bordering on Semi-Chaos" is the answer ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1811
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The Payzone brand has already shown it's willingness to play fast n loose by seeking an extra "levy" on top of the agreed Leapcard rates,so it would suggest that they do not want to become any further involved with the ITS concept.

    The NTA need to recognize that there is not a hope in hell of Leapcard achieving optimum popularity in the face of this nonsense.

    It is not payzone doing that, just some shops, similar to those surcharges newsagents put on phone topups 10 years ago.


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    #1812
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1813
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Thats what I meant when I said Payzone have an Issue with some of their participating shops.

    Either way,its the NTA who have the biggest Issue as it's their Leapcard Product which is building up a totally unnecessary resevoir of negativity surrounding it's use.....Danger Here !! :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1814
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    cdebru wrote: »
    Why should they ? Are they being paid for it ?
    No, but it brings people into the shop. And it's the deal. Don't like it, don't volunteer your shop.


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    #1815
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    TheBandicoot wrote: »
    Could be argued that it brings people into the shop, where there they can then make an impulse buy. But I admit it is not an ideal situation and am not surprised problems are arising.

    Well if that's the attitude of the shop then why bother shopping with them. I got very quickly fed up with payzone shops looking at me as if I had two heads when I asked for a top up. Instead I always use railway stations and tram stops instead.


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    #1816
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    the NTA now have issues with Payzone

    They do?


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    #1817
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    April O Neill wrote: »
    No, but it brings people into the shop. And it's the deal. Don't like it, don't volunteer your shop.

    Who says its the deal or that the retailers were told or agreed to this, I know a couple of people who own shops and AFAIK they were never asked nor agreed to top up leap cards which they didn't sell the credit for.


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    #1818
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    TheBandicoot wrote: »
    Could be argued that it brings people into the shop, where there they can then make an impulse buy. But I admit it is not an ideal situation and am not surprised problems are arising.

    Unfortunately retailers are finding most of their sales are on these bring them into the shop items, phone top ups, leap card, newspapers, cigarettes, milk, bread, etc all have low margins with the well it brings them in maybe they will buy something else, most of the time they don't and when they do it is often another low margin item, as the discretionary spending has decreased in the current environment. The logic of asking them to work for free is non existent.


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    #1819
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    markpb wrote: »
    They do?

    They sured do markpb,specifically with those Payzone Agents who signed up for Leapcard Topup as well.

    If these particular Payzone members are refusing to facilitate Leapcard balance checks then it immediately becomes an NTA problem.

    10 years and €40 million on,we now find another item which nobody considered .......:o


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1820
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    April O Neill wrote: »
    Nope, the SPAR near me wouldn't. :-|

    Personally, I would complain to the manager of said shop regarding that, as it is a facility offered by payzone, a product which they are offering.
    cdebru wrote: »
    Who says its the deal or that the retailers were told or agreed to this, I know a couple of people who own shops and AFAIK they were never asked nor agreed to top up leap cards which they didn't sell the credit for.

    I would imagine it is part of their terms of service which they have agreed to with Payzone.


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    #1821
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Mr Simpson wrote: »
    Personally, I would complain to the manager of said shop regarding that, as it is a facility offered by payzone, a product which they are offering.

    I would imagine it is part of their terms of service which they have agreed to with Payzone.

    Reflects the current National Ethos really,so mnay layers of administration for almost every concievable element of life,commensurate with almost none of these layers actually being RESPONSIBLE for any given aspect of the end-product :o

    Even here on a "well informed" forum,we have confusion as to who actually has the problem......apart,that is, from the poor oul End User...who has actually paid for something and is unable to have it supplied without having to go to the High-Court !! :eek:

    10 Years....€40+ Million = :confused::confused::confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1822
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    cdebru wrote: »
    Who says its the deal or that the retailers were told or agreed to this, I know a couple of people who own shops and AFAIK they were never asked nor agreed to top up leap cards which they didn't sell the credit for.

    I think you may be miss wording your comment, but just to be clear, the payzone store isn't topping up the leap card when someone goes in to get online topup. They are setup to allow the leap card to collect a pending topup. All they have to do is place the card on the reader, go to history menu and it's done. They are not topping up the card.


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    #1823
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think you may be miss wording your comment, but just to be clear, the payzone store isn't topping up the leap card when someone goes in to get online topup. They are setup to allow the leap card to collect a pending topup. All they have to do is place the card on the reader, go to history menu and it's done. They are not topping up the card.

    They are being asked to apply credit to the card which they didn't sell. Why would they ? They are running a business not a social service, they are being asked to perform pretty much the same service without any economic benefit at all but they still have the costs of providing the service. if you have to go to the payzone retailer either way why not just pay them instead of paying someone else and then expecting them to provide the service?


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    #1824
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    They are being asked to apply credit to the card which they didn't sell. Why would they ? They are running a business not a social service, they are being asked to perform pretty much the same service without any economic benefit at all but they still have the costs of providing the service. if you have to go to the payzone retailer either way why not just pay them instead of paying someone else and then expecting them to provide the service?

    Well unless you have seen the contract between the NTA and Payzone, how do you know what has or has not been agreed?

    The leapcard website clearly states the following:
    What is a 'load location'?
    1. A load location is the network you nominate to collect your online Top Up. You can choose to collect your online Top Up at:
    • Any Payzone Leap Card Agent
    • Luas Ticket Machines (if you are not travelling)
    • Luas Validators (if you are taking a journey on Luas)
    • DART/Commuter Rail Ticket Machines in the Short Hop Zone (if you are not travelling)
    • DART/Commuter Rail Validators and Gates in the Short Hop Zone (if you are taking a journey)
    Note:
    1. - If you are collecting your Top Up on Luas or DART and Commuter Rail you should only collect a top-up at a gate or validator if you are making a journey, as the Gates or Validators will automatically Touch you on. If you are not making a journey you can collect at a Ticket Machine.
    2. - If you are collecting your Top Up at a PayZone Leap Card Agent present your card to the reader at the counter and ask for a balance enquiry. Your balance should automatically update with your new Top Up added.
    3. Remember, it can take up to 48 hours for your Travel Credit to be ready for collection at your nominated load location. Top-ups will remain available for you to collect for up to 21 days.


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    #1825
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1826
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Mr Simpson wrote: »
    Personally, I would complain to the manager of said shop regarding that, as it is a facility offered by payzone, a product which

    I would imagine it is part of their terms of service which they have agreed to with Payzone.


    You would imagine but I have spoken to a retailer and they have not been asked or agreed to provide such a service.

    Not all service available from payzone are offered by payzone retailers for example many won't provide Ukash vouchers because of a scam of taking a picture of the voucher once it is printed then leaving the shop without paying. Once you have the code you can cash it.


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    #1827
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    cdebru wrote: »
    They are being asked to apply credit to the card which they didn't sell. Why would they ? They are running a business not a social service, they are being asked to perform pretty much the same service without any economic benefit at all but they still have the costs of providing the service. if you have to go to the payzone retailer either way why not just pay them instead of paying someone else and then expecting them to provide the service?

    I'm not discussing based on the worth or value to the retailer, just stating what currently is published and should be acted on. If you want to argue value to the retailer, you'd have to question why they've signed up to payzone at all. It's usually worth feck all on sales by themselves to the retailer. But then that's a different topic. This is about usability for the consumer. There is an inconvenience already with having to collect it, it doesn't need another when a retailer signs up to leap card and picks and chooses which element they'll handle.


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    #1828
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    cdebru wrote: »
    They are being asked to apply credit to the card which they didn't sell. Why would they ? They are running a business not a social service, they are being asked to perform pretty much the same service without any economic benefit at all but they still have the costs of providing the service. if you have to go to the payzone retailer either way why not just pay them instead of paying someone else and then expecting them to provide the service?

    Ah the joys of the Irish shopocracy. Spent years in London and never had an issue with Oyster in shops. In Ireland it's a big deal. Another artificial hurdle for a proper roll out of Leap. Why am I not surprised? Justifying a lack of service sounds like a thinly veiled attempt by retailers to get more gravy for a basic service that would attract more business to their shop if they had any cop on at all.


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    #1829
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I'm not discussing based on the worth or value to the retailer, just stating what currently is published and should be acted on. If you want to argue value to the retailer, you'd have to question why they've signed up to payzone at all. It's usually worth feck all on sales by themselves to the retailer. But then that's a different topic. This is about usability for the consumer. There is an inconvenience already with having to collect it, it doesn't need another when a retailer signs up to leap card and picks and chooses which element they'll handle.


    No what I'm saying is they took on leap card to sell it and they were not told they would be expected to perform a service for free.


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    #1830
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    cdebru wrote: »
    No what I'm saying is they took on leap card to sell it and they were not told they would be expected to perform a service for free.

    Again you are going on worth/value to the retailer. Leap Card is an overall service and I'd be rather surprised if they didn't know it'll include collection of online topups. Or even now, almost 2 years since it was launched.


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    #1831
    bg07
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭bg07


    Would a customer operatored balance checker/top up pickup point that requires no shop keeper interaction address this? Something similar to what is in place for checking lotto tickets. Obviously there would be a capital investment that no one will want to cover. At least if it was set up that way it would bring footfall in the shop keeper's premises without using their staff.


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