"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Victor

vienne86 wrote: »

I used my Leap card on Friday to take the Dart to Booterstown. I thought I would top it up in Booterstown station, but the machine would not recognise the Leap card. So I went across the road to the Payzone and was told that they did not have full functionality, and one of the missing functions was topping up of Leap cards. They don't make it easy!

Top-ups at Irish Rail stations will be one of the first improvements.

mambo wrote: »

Thanks. What about if the bus route in question only goes 13 stages or less? In this case is the validator programmed to only charge for 8-13 stages (€1.95)?

Leap Card customers should go to the driver. The system isn't ssart enough yet to know such information.

ixoy

Victor wrote: »

Top-ups at Irish Rail stations will be one of the first improvements.

Any idea when? It's ridiculous that they're advertising this on DARTs as a great feature when you can't even top up the cards at the DART stations.

Victor

ixoy wrote: »

Any idea when? It's ridiculous that they're advertising this on DARTs as a great feature when you can't even top up the cards at the DART stations.

I don't yet have confirmation of when, but the next few months.

bk

Victor wrote: »

I don't yet have confirmation of when, but the next few months.

Was it not supposed to happen in February?

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Was it not supposed to happen in February?

Leap Card funcionality, Don't worry it is all still "coming soon"

P_1

Got my leap card today just a quick question?

If I put money on it at a Luas stop do I jave to use it on the Luas 1st or can I use it on the train without using the Luas

foggy_lad

pithater1 wrote: »

Got my leap card today just a quick question?

If I put money on it at a Luas stop do I jave to use it on the Luas 1st or can I use it on the train without using the Luas

You can use it anywhere because the money is loaded on the card immediately.

blubloblu

What's taking so long with the Irish Rail vending machines? Aren't they identical to the LUAS machines, just a software update holding it back?

goingnowhere

Irish Rail's machines issue cards as well which is a bit more complex.

Luas ones can as well but the RPA never bothered to enable the feature

ixoy

There's an article on the RTE website about it:

More than 50,000 people have subscribed to the new integrated ticket for bus, rail, DART and Luas services in Dublin since it was launched eight weeks ago.

The latest figures show that more than 615,000 journeys have also been taken using the Leap card.

Minister of State with responsibility for Public and Commuter Transport Alan Kelly said the project had surpassed its targets at this stage.
However, the National Transport Authority has accepted there are some issues, particularly in relation to the topping up of the cards, which it is hoping to resolve shortly.

NTA project director Tim Gaston said it is planning to introduce an instant top-up system using direct debits, which will help deal with concerns.
Vending machines at railway stations will also sell Leap cards shortly. Customers will soon be able to top-up at vending machines at railway and Luas stations.

The Leap card was finally launched last December ten years after it was first announced. The final cost is expected to be €55m.

The system will be expanded to private and Bus Éireann services in the greater Dublin area later this year. A student Leap card will also be introduced in the summer.

I see the NTA director acknowledges that the manner of card topping is a concern as well as the issue of vending machines at railway stations.
Both of these will be resolved "shortly". Given the time frames it took for integrated ticketing, I'd worry about what they think of as "shortly".

dublinman1990

I have seen this on the 9 O'Clock news tonight. It is definitely a high number of people using it for journeys. It is a very welcome start IMO. I don't think the numbers will decrease ever so slightly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0208/leap.html

The problems of not topping up online will hopefully be up and running now soon.

etchyed

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I don't think the numbers will decrease ever so slightly.

Incomprehensible. Again.

steve-o

Overcharged on the bus once again. This time I was charged €1.40 (cash fare) instead of €1.25. How is that even possible? I presume I'd need to go to O'Connell Street to beg for my 15c back.

Jesus Wept

Got charged 1.90 for a 1.70. Also have no idea how someone would confuse the two, not paying attention.

Is going to Dublin Bus HQ the thing to do?

foggy_lad

steve-o wrote: »

Overcharged on the bus once again. This time I was charged €1.40 (cash fare) instead of €1.25. How is that even possible? I presume I'd need to go to O'Connell Street to beg for my 15c back.

The-Rigger wrote: »

Got charged 1.90 for a 1.70. Also have no idea how someone would confuse the two, not paying attention.

Is going to Dublin Bus HQ the thing to do?

Contact that NTA guy that was on the news last night, he looked weary of sorting out leap card issues. Otherwise your only option is going to Dublin bus hq or take the hit and possibly stop using the card because of mistakes and driver errors.

AlekSmart

steve-o wrote: »

Overcharged on the bus once again. This time I was charged €1.40 (cash fare) instead of €1.25. How is that even possible? I presume I'd need to go to O'Connell Street to beg for my 15c back.

The Rigger : Got charged 1.90 for a 1.70. Also have no idea how someone would confuse the two, not paying attention.

Is going to Dublin Bus HQ the thing to do?

These both sound like a card removed too quickly error,something which would immediately cause the T.I.M screen to revert to the cash fare setting,which is the only way the €1.40 and €1.25 can occupy the same button.

It occurs far too frequently for comfort,and is caused largely by the lack of a clearly defined Fare-Deducted audible note,but equally by the very slow response of the T.I.M to card presentation.

Simple simple stuff, pointing a very clear finger at a significant lack of attention to the small operational details,the end result of which is to undermine the credibility of the entire system.

Aard

I've seen a lot of people paying by Leap, but still getting a ticket. It's a short ticket, so I doubt it's the big long print-out of recent transactions, but rather that they're being charged the cash fare. A lot of school fares too.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

These both sound like a card removed too quickly error,something which would immediately cause the T.I.M screen to revert to the cash fare setting,which is the only way the €1.40 and €1.25 can occupy the same button.

It occurs far too frequently for comfort,and is caused largely by the lack of a clearly defined Fare-Deducted audible note,but equally by the very slow response of the T.I.M to card presentation.

Simple simple stuff, pointing a very clear finger at a significant lack of attention to the small operational details,the end result of which is to undermine the credibility of the entire system.

How can any fare be deducted if the card has been removed? surely an alarm should sound that the card needs to be placed properly?

Aard wrote: »

I've seen a lot of people paying by Leap, but still getting a ticket. It's a short ticket, so I doubt it's the big long print-out of recent transactions, but rather that they're being charged the cash fare. A lot of school fares too.

If that is the case what hope have all those people got of getting refunded for being double charged or overcharged when they don't realise it is happening!

Dublin bus need to STOP taking the leap card at the drivers card reader until these issues are properly sorted out and when customers can't be left at the mercy of overworked drivers and poor customer care. there should be no need to visit headquarters to get a refund, all it should take is an email with details!

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

These both sound like a card removed too quickly error,something which would immediately cause the T.I.M screen to revert to the cash fare setting,which is the only way the €1.40 and €1.25 can occupy the same button.

Does this not mean that the person hasn't paid at all and is therefore getting a free fare and that the drivers money count is going to be short €1.40 ?

After all the cash fare is only deducted after the button is pressed, so I assume that if the person pulled the card away too soon (or there was some other communication failure with the card) then the screen reverted to the cash fare screen before the driver noticed and he hit the cash button, which will issue a paper ticket, but won't have deducted anything from the leap card.

Also twice now I've been told by drivers that Leap wasn't working and I've gotten a free ride. Sounds like Leap could end up being a very expensive disaster for DB.

NTA project director Tim Gaston said it is planning to introduce an instant top-up system using direct debits, which will help deal with concerns.
Vending machines at railway stations will also sell Leap cards shortly. Customers will soon be able to top-up at vending machines at railway and Luas stations

Clearly people from the NTA are listening to us here on boards (hi guys), these two issues have been constantly raised here on boards. These two problems should never have happened, they should have been working from day one.

However what concerns me is that they seem to only be focusing on the issues which are directly under the NTA's control while ignoring the much bigger issue of how LEAP works on buses.

Clearly LEAP's fatal flaw is the on bus experience. It often doesn't work properly and when it does it takes too long. This issue desperately needs to be resolved.

I believe it can be resolved by either of the following methods, but it will require the NTA and DB working closely together.

Plan A
Flat fare, need to tag-on only, no interaction with the driver needed.

Plan B
Tag on and tag off, no interaction with the driver.

Plan A would be much better IMO, however it seems to be a controversial move and therefore much less likely to happen. Plan B would seem to be doable without any controversy.

I was originally against the idea of Plan B, as I thought it would slow dwell times down, due to slowing down people getting off. But now having seen the slowness and problems with the driver interaction, I'm convinced Plan B would end up much faster and less troublesome then the current set up.

Plan B could be immensely improved if the maximum fare was made a Travel 90 and set at 1.90. Then a lot of people wouldn't have to tag-off and I'd imagine even a lot of 1.70 people wouldn't bother tagging off. Almost giving you Plan A, flat fare anyway.

I wonder if they didn't do it this way, because at the moment, the fare stage is set by the driver and not automatically by GPS. I believe an update is coming in the next few months which will mean the stage on the ticket machines is set automatically from the GPS.

But they need to change to Plan B as soon as possible, before too many people take up leap cards and get used and pissed off with the current bad setup.

Bumblebee Man

steve-o wrote: »

Overcharged on the bus once again. This time I was charged €1.40 (cash fare) instead of €1.25. How is that even possible? I presume I'd need to go to O'Connell Street to beg for my 15c back.

Same happened to me yesterday. Wasn't sure yesterday until I double checked my account. Shouldn't seem possible?

Bumblebee Man

AlekSmart wrote: »

These both sound like a card removed too quickly error,something which would immediately cause the T.I.M screen to revert to the cash fare setting,which is the only way the €1.40 and €1.25 can occupy the same button.

In relation to this; I placed the card on the reader and said €1.25 please and waited until the driver said "Go ahead" before removing the card.

Aard

Bumblebee Man wrote: »

Same happened to me yesterday. Wasn't sure yesterday until I double checked my account. Shouldn't seem possible?

They should make it so that it's impossible for somebody to get two Leap fares within one minute of each other. It would completely avoid people being overcharged.

robd

Aard wrote: »

They should make it so that it's impossible for somebody to get two Leap fares within one minute of each other. It would completely avoid people being overcharged.

Except that that goes against the bizarre idea that Leap Card Users should also be able to pay for accompanying passengers on their card.

markpb

robd wrote: »

Except that that goes against the bizarre idea that Leap Card Users should also be able to pay for accompanying passengers on their card.

I know it introduces more complexity but it's a very useful feature. I've used it plenty of times already. To be honest, it sounds (to me) like the problems stem from lack of training (DB didn't provide enough or the drivers didn't pay attention) and DB goofing the TVM firmware upgrades. If drivers are somehow able to issue a non-existant €1.40 fare on a Leap card, there's a problem with the TVM or tariff files.

goingnowhere

The TIM seems to allow the driver to manually enter a fare via key pad and hit execute

1.40 is not a valid valid for any LEAP product

It would be interesting to get a Dublin Bus history print out from the card to see what the card recorded the charge as and indeed the to/from stage numbers

markpb

goingnowhere wrote: »

The TIM seems to allow the driver to manually enter a fare via key pad and hit execute

You're kidding?

steve-o

Bumblebee Man wrote: »

In relation to this; I placed the card on the reader and said €1.25 please and waited until the driver said "Go ahead" before removing the card.

My experience too. Regardless, I can't see how removing a card early (or a temporary loss of contact) could/should ever cause a cash fare to be deducted.

goingnowhere

markpb wrote: »

You're kidding?

On occasion where the driver has drawn a blank as to the city centre fare, the driver appeared to enter a number into the keypad and hit the execute button

There is no need to ever use to keypad save for change tickets so what was the driver doing? The fact it looked like 0.50 being entered only further raises suspicions

Bumblebee Man

Aard wrote: »

They should make it so that it's impossible for somebody to get two Leap fares within one minute of each other. It would completely avoid people being overcharged.

I disagree with this. I was only charged once.

I find it useful when gettin the bus with the gf to be able to pay for both of us on the card.

Aard

Oh right, I misunderstood. I thought you were charged twice.

Actually, when paying for a second person by Leap, are they charged the Leap fare or the cash fare? I'd assume the former but you never know...!