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"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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    #812
    robd
    Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    D8 boy wrote: »
    Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

    I've been using my Leap card since before Christmas without too much bother. Like some other contributors to this thread, I find the display on the card reader hard to read and, aware of the queue of other passengers normally boarding after me, I tend to focus on the green light as a signal that the transaction has completed.

    I made a number of bus journeys recently and had no idea of my balance. One evening I boarded a no. 13, placed my card on the reader to find that the machine didn't seem to be detect it. The driver got me to hold it different ways, stared at his display and eventually concluded the "the doo-dah must be broken, all you can do is sit down". Assuming this was a problem with the reader, i sat down and enjoyed my free journey home.

    Next day, different bus, usual routine of putting the card on the reader and ask for €1.70. Again not a flicker from the reader, despite trying the card at different angles. This time the driver jabbed some buttons on the machine and said what sounded like "your balance is €1.25". Since this was less than the fare I had already asked for, I then asked what the cash equivalent of €1.70 and dived into my pockets to find €1.90 in change. By the time all of this was completed it looked like every pair of eyes on the lower deck was drilling into me...

    When I got home I logged on to find that my balance was in fact -€1.25. I topped it up and it's working fine.

    It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

    Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!

    Yes. I got caught out badly with a balance of -€0.55 on my card going to work earlier in the week on the Bus.

    It's difficult to see the balance on the screen. Also I think the Luas and Irish Rail displays the balance pre deduction which is confusing.

    The lack of any audible sign for anything on the Buses is extremely frustrating. Very bad UX design. Very bad from an accessibility perspective also. I've perfect eyesight and hearing and it's terrible but what about hard of hearing and people with severe short or long sight.


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    #813
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,924 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robd wrote: »
    I would hazzard a guess that the it is the smart card that uses floating point, rather than the website. This would therefore be a technology limitation as it likely has limited memory hence lack of integer maths.

    Integer arithmetic uses less space.
    Smart cards are designed to handle money, they should be able to do this exactly, and I haven't heard of another smart card payment system that has rounding errors.

    So it's not the card, it's something the NTA have done. The card itself is undoubtedly off-the-shelf.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #814
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,250 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Tarabuses wrote: »
    The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.
    Have you been able to get this resolved? Is she sure she tagged off?
    D8 boy wrote: »
    Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?
    You need a minimum of €0.01 to use it on the bus (€1.00 in the case of Airlink)
    It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke.
    I think I've experienced this too, but wasn't able to pinpoint it. I've three cards and at least one always has a positive balance.


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    #815
    Cyndaquil
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭Cyndaquil


    Question, if I am making a Luas journey from Dundrum to Heuston, do I

    A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.

    or

    B. tag on at Dundrum and not tag off until I reach Heuston

    Thanks


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    #816
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,250 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Cyndaquil wrote: »
    A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.
    This.

    The cash fare would appear to be €1.90 (two zones) or €1.75 with Leap. That actually seems to be good value.


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    #817
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Would that not be charged as two fares?


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    #818
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Cyndaquil wrote: »
    Question, if I am making a Luas journey from Dundrum to Heuston, do I

    A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.

    or

    B. tag on at Dundrum and not tag off until I reach Heuston

    Thanks
    Victor wrote: »
    This.

    The cash fare would appear to be €1.90 (two zones) or €1.75 with Leap. That actually seems to be good value.

    Really don't think it is A. It seems far more like B.

    The Luas Fare Comparison tool puts Dundrum to Heuston as a "Single journey", thus you only tag on at Dundrum and off at Heuston.


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    #819
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street


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    #820
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street

    Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #821
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Lads could you please back up your claims if you want to try and contradict what's on Luas.ie. :confused:
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:
    goingnowhere wrote: »
    You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street

    As I said the "Luas Fare Comparison tool" puts it as a single journey (for the record, as well as for Leap, it also puts it as a "Single journey" for a paper ticket):

    189342.JPG

    The "Stop to Stop Fare Calculator" is also telling me:

    "Your Total Fare is €1.90 euro
    You shall require 1 tickets for your entered journey"


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    #822
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,250 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    monument wrote: »
    As I said the "Luas Fare Comparison tool" puts it as a single journey (for the record, as well as for Leap, it also puts it as a "Single journey" for a paper ticket):
    By "single", they mean "not return".

    If you were to validate your ticket at say Red Cow and then Ranelagh, Luas doesn't know if you have travelled via the city centre, route 17, 18 or 75 and when or where you have forgotten to tag-on or -off.


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    #823
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Victor wrote: »
    By "single", they mean "not return".

    Single as in one single, not two singles.

    It is one single if you tag on at Dundrum and off at Heuston. Tagging off at the green and on again at Abbey or Jervis would be two singles.

    Victor wrote: »
    If you were to validate your ticket at say Red Cow and then Ranelagh, Luas doesn't know if you have travelled via the city centre, route 17, 18 or 75 and when or where you have forgotten to tag-on or -off.

    Sure, you tag off before you're going to use the bus, but not when going from the green line to the red in the city centre.

    In any case, none of this applies given the poster was talking about only using Luas via the city centre.


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    #824
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

    Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

    If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off.

    If I buy a single ticket from Cobh to Derry and change at Cork, Heuston, Connolly and Belfast Central, its still a single journey.


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    #825
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

    Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

    If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off.

    If I buy a single ticket from Cobh to Derry and change at Cork, Heuston, Connolly and Belfast Central, its still a single journey.

    My opinion on the Dundrum-Heuston journey was based on the Cash-Fare situation rather than LeapCard.

    The TfL system now incorporates Pink Validators which users are expected to use when transferring between lines/trains at selected locations.

    The sole purpose of the Pink Validator is to detect and record the actual connection used and the determination of a fare from this.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14871.aspx


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #826
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

    Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

    If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off

    Yes, with the Underground you tag off to pass the barrier -- that's why you tag off!

    Is it not also the case with the Underground you also can pass from line to line without passing any barrier or tagging off? I've done it more than a few times.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    My opinion on the Dundrum-Heuston journey was based on the Cash-Fare situation rather than LeapCard.

    It may be wrong, but luas.ie says you only need one paper ticket to travel Dundrum-Heuston.


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    #827
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:

    Strangely enough Luas and Veolia seem to be the only transport operators who have grasped and nourished the whole leap card concept!

    They have turned all their validators into leap card validators removing any and all Luas smart card logos and every door on every tram has a large sticker reminding you to tag off or asking have you tagged on depending which side you look from.

    They appear to be well in tune with the whole "progress is good for us and our passengers as well as for the country" idea which is sadly lacking in all other Irish state transport operators as well as all state departments!

    I would not be surprised if the Luas website information on Leap card was more comprehensive and easier to read and understand than the leap website!


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    #828
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,250 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    monument wrote: »
    It may be wrong, but luas.ie says you only need one paper ticket to travel Dundrum-Heuston.
    Correct. But with a Luas or Leap card, you need to treat it as two legs of one journey.


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    #829
    SerialComplaint
    Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    The Luas guys tell me that "A credit card cannot be used twice within a 7 day period" for fraud protection reasons. This is a real barrier for legitimate customers.

    I brought the family into town last Saturday, and used my credit card to buy tickets for the family, while using my own Leap card. On Monday, my Leap balance was low, so I needed to top up - but my credit card was declined, with no explanation why. I had to get onto the customer services folk to find out why it was declined.

    This seems like a very restrictive limitation to me, and is creating a barrier for legitimate customers.


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    #830
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    monument wrote: »

    Is it not also the case with the Underground you also can pass from line to line without passing any barrier or tagging off? I've done it more than a few times. .
    Yes, normally this is the case, however there are a few exceptions, for example, if you're changing from a Piccadilly Line tube to a Circle Line tube at Hammersmith Station you have to exit the barriers at the "Piccadilly" side then cross the road and walk to the "Circle" side. Even though you have to tag on/off twice when changing tubes at Hammersmith the Oyster system recognises it as one journey.


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    #831
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BenShermin wrote: »
    Yes, normally this is the case, however there are a few exceptions, for example, if you're changing from a Piccadilly Line tube to a Circle Line tube at Hammersmith Station you have to exit the barriers at the "Piccadilly" side then cross the road and walk to the "Circle" side. Even though you have to tag on/off twice when changing tubes at Hammersmith the Oyster system recognises it as one journey.

    Any need to tag off is, however, created by the barriers, not the walking distance etc.


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    #832
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    SerialComplaint wrote: »
    The Luas guys tell me that "A credit card cannot be used twice within a 7 day period" for fraud protection reasons. This is a real barrier for legitimate customers.

    I brought the family into town last Saturday, and used my credit card to buy tickets for the family, while using my own Leap card. On Monday, my Leap balance was low, so I needed to top up - but my credit card was declined, with no explanation why. I had to get onto the customer services folk to find out why it was declined.

    This seems like a very restrictive limitation to me, and is creating a barrier for legitimate customers.
    Only in Ireland!


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    #833
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Strangely enough Luas and Veolia seem to be the only transport operators who have grasped and nourished the whole leap card concept!

    They have turned all their validators into leap card validators removing any and all Luas smart card logos and every door on every tram has a large sticker reminding you to tag off or asking have you tagged on depending which side you look from.

    They appear to be well in tune with the whole "progress is good for us and our passengers as well as for the country" idea which is sadly lacking in all other Irish state transport operators as well as all state departments!

    To be fair the same stickers have been placed over the validators of every bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. There is no requirement to remind passengers to tag off on the bus, so those other type of stickers are not necessary. Most buses also contain full sized posters advertising Leap.

    Dublin Bus also have a similar flashing ad box on their homepage "leap forward in commuting". To be honest, I find the information on the Dublin Bus page fare more informative than that of Luas.


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    #834
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    KD345 wrote: »
    To be fair the same stickers have been placed over the validators of every bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. There is no requirement to remind passengers to tag off on the bus, so those other type of stickers are not necessary. Most buses also contain full sized posters advertising Leap.

    Dublin Bus also have a similar flashing ad box on their homepage "leap forward in commuting". To be honest, I find the information on the Dublin Bus page fare more informative than that of Luas.
    How easy is it to use a leap card on Dublin Bus compared to Luas if you do not require the maximum fare? Luas does not have the same trouble as Dublin Bus with the card because they are a far more progressive company and see the benefits of zonal fares instead of the stage fare system that no longer exists on Dublin Bus but which they still insist on using. Only in Ireland would such incompetence be tolerated! in other less developed countries people have been jailed for much less!


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    #835
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    How easy is it to use a leap card on Dublin Bus compared to Luas if you do not require the maximum fare? Luas does not have the same trouble as Dublin Bus with the card because they are a far more progressive company and see the benefits of zonal fares instead of the stage fare system that no longer exists on Dublin Bus but which they still insist on using. Only in Ireland would such incompetence be tolerated! in other less developed countries people have been jailed for much less!

    I was only pointing out that the Dublin Bus customer stickers, adverts and web information was on the same level as Luas.

    As for the fare system, I don't see the point in bashing Dublin Bus. Blame the NTA. They funded this Leap Card and also control how every fare is charged.


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    #836
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Passing Dublin Bus office on O'Connell St, I notice that they have the smallest leap card on sale here sticker in the window that you can imagine.

    Pretty embarrassing. You would think they would have large posters and displays promoting LEAP card in the window.


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    #837
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    It has sold more Leap cards than any other location


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    #838
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    It has sold more Leap cards than any other location

    Exactly and I'm sure it would sell even more if it bothered to advertise it.

    Also you would think it would make sense for them to have LEAP Ticket Vending Machiens for purshasing and topping up leap cards there?


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    #839
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    It has sold more Leap cards than any other location
    Because people go into the shops named on the website only to be told they are not selling the cards yet or have had no training in selling or topping them up?


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    #840
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bk wrote: »
    Exactly and I'm sure it would sell even more if it bothered to advertise it.

    Also you would think it would make sense for them to have LEAP Ticket Vending Machiens for purshasing and topping up leap cards there?
    They have plenty of room outside the window to put a few leap vending machines but that might require union approval.


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    #841
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    They have plenty of room outside the window to put a few leap vending machines but that might require union approval.

    Nope Foggy_Lad,lets do the Time_Warp again.........However it WOULD require planning permission from the relevant authority....;) (Think St Stephens Green North) :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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