The End of JoePa in Penn State

JaMarcus Hustle

BastardPrince wrote: »

Surely you could say that about any punishment?

You probably could, but any punishment the NCAA has handed out before have been for direct sporting violations, i.e. recruiting violations. They've never had anything like this to deal with before, and I'm of the opinion that handing out similar sanctions isn't appropriate. I don't believe there was an appropriate punishment the NCAA could legally hand out.

Rented Mule wrote:

The NCAA put it quite simply. Penn State created a culture that put the importance of the football program ahead of 'education, nurturing and the protection of children'.

Again, they put 'Saturday entertainment' ahead of the welfare of at least a dozen children.

That's sensationalist crap. Penn State didn't create anything, don't for a second believe that Penn State have a "keep child molestation cases or anything that could damage our reputation to yourself" condition written into contracts. Have you actually read the Freeh Report? It's decidely unambiguous in it's findings that this was covered up due to the actions of 4 men (5 if you include Sandusky himself I guess) acting outside of the structure in place at Penn State. Every time you mentioned "Penn State did this" or "They did that", try to remember you're talking about 5 people.

Did Penn State create a culture where their football program is to be held in high esteem? Yes, like every other FBS university in the country. Did they create a culture where child molestation is to be overlooked? Absolute bollox.

CoachTO

What I find nuts is the amount of people on here posting what the media have sprouted rather than what the Freeh Report has actually stated.

Here it is for those who obviously haven't read the thing:

http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/

Honestly before I read the Freeh report last night in its entirety I was all for the punishment laid about the NCAA but after reading it my stance has changed. I do agree the University should be punished but the severity of it is so bad they would have been better off with a death penalty of 1 year without a football program.

frostie500

Rented Mule wrote: »

Ok. Thank you.

The NCAA put it quite simply. Penn State created a culture that put the importance of the football program ahead of 'education, nurturing and the protection of children'.

Again, they put 'Saturday entertainment' ahead of the welfare of at least a dozen children.

How does the penalties handed out help the victims of Sandusky? How does making Penn State football irrelevant for the next ten years help the other student associations (sporting and social) at Penn State to move on from this? Without football revenue a lot of other aspects of life for Penn State's student body are badly affected by this fine.

It's been said by a few people here that having a Penn State degree now will make it difficult to get work when they finish school, how does this help those students?

By penalising the school so harshly has the NCAA not also put "Saturday entertainment" on too high a pedestal? They are now, in effect, saying that Penn State put winning football games ahead of the safety of students so we will punish them by taking away those wins and making sure that the black mark of the school continues to be felt for a very long time.

The NCAA waded into waters relating to criminal behaviour well beyond its realm as an athletic association and decided that it knows better than the courts who have put the main culprit behind bars and will do the same to the others involved in this coverup.

My points earlier on were not in support of not giving Penn State penalties it was rather that i think that the NCAA has now put itself into a position where it now has to act on matters involving criminal activities on campus. Penn State were not hiding from this scandal. They sacked the main people involved in it and commisioned the Freeh report which was exceptionally damning on the school.

They weren't hiding with their head in the sand they were ready and willing to punish those responsible while also allowing the school to move on with some semblance of dignity for their alumi and students. These sanctions do nothing to help the school or the victims to move on

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Did they create a culture where child molestation is to be overlooked? Absolute bollox.

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

frostie500

Rented Mule wrote: »

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

Read through JMH's posts in their entirity rather than quoting a single line and it's quite clear that he feels, as backed up by the Freeh report, that these men were acting in isolation and not acting as Penn State University.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

This affects 85 scholarship athletes who can all play for Penn State or transfer elsewhere.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

This affects 85 scholarship athletes who can all play for Penn State or transfer elsewhere.

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

Rented Mule

frostie500 wrote: »

Read through JMH's posts in their entirity rather than quoting a single line and it's quite clear that he feels, as backed up by the Freeh report, that these men were acting in isolation and not acting as Penn State University.

There isn't a facepalm big enough.

Let's see. We have the Head Football Coach, the Athletic Director, the University Vice President as well as the University President.

They are the guiding forces behind the University. They act on behalf of the entire University on a daily basis. It is their defined role at the University.

Chardee MacDennis

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

exactly so in the future when someone thinks about doing the something similar, they will know it's not worth it...

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You probably could, but any punishment the NCAA has handed out before have been for direct sporting violations, i.e. recruiting violations. They've never had anything like this to deal with before, and I'm of the opinion that handing out similar sanctions isn't appropriate. I don't believe there was an appropriate punishment the NCAA could legally hand out.

So should the NCAA have done nothing? I don't believe that was an option.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

It doesn't affect the alumni one bit.

Current students are affected how ? They don't get to go to a Bowl game?

Administrators? I'm guessing they don't get their free trip a Bowl game.

Athletes - all scholarships are still honoured. They can transfer if they choose not to be affiliated with the University without fear of penalty

Local businesses will still have games on Saturday. The 'death penalty' was not invoked. The same amount of games will be played in Happy Valley as before the ruling.

Several charities will reap a windfall of over $60 million thanks to this ruling.

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

Like the Sandusky charity?

Effectiely Penn State will only lose out on income from 4 bowl games. They make millions anyway. The financial argument is rubbish.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

It doesn't affect the alumni one bit.

Current students are affected how ? They don't get to go to a Bowl game?

Administrators? I'm guessing they don't get their free trip a Bowl game.

Athletes - all scholarships are still honoured. They can transfer if they choose not to be affiliated with the University without fear of penalty

Local businesses will still have games on Saturday. The 'death penalty' was not invoked. The same amount of games will be played in Happy Valley as before the ruling.

Several charities will reap a windfall of over $60 million thanks to this ruling.

Amazing how you so quickly change your tune to suit an argument.

Rented Mule wrote: »

As far as 'collateral damage', think about what this scandal has done to the value of a Penn State degree. Imagine what it must be like to go into an interview with Penn State on your CV at the moment.

The incoming freshman class knows exactly what this University has done. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

Like the Sandusky charity?

Effectiely Penn State will only lose out on income from 4 bowl games. They make millions anyway. The financial argument is rubbish.

What is your point here? Surely raising money for charity is a good thing. The fact that the man was a despicable creature doesn't take away from people who gave money to his charity.

My argument is not all financial, its about everybody thats affected by the decisions made by a few men.

If you worked in a job and a couple of the senior management figures illegally took funds from the company would you accept that you have to be punished over it?

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

What is your point here? Surely raising money for charity is a good thing. The fact that the man was a despicable creature doesn't take away from people who gave money to his charity.

and likewise, the fact he raised mney for chairty doesn't excuse the fact he raped children

My argument is not all financial, its about everybody thats affected by the decisions made by a few men.

If you worked in a job and a couple of the senior management figures illegally took funds from the company would you accept that you have to be punished over it?

If they missed 4 end of year awards shows, I think I'd be Ok...

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Amazing how you so quickly change your tune to suit an argument.

How is the NCAA ruling responsible for the reputation of the University?

I have changed nothing. Nice try. My stance is the same as it was from my first post in this thread.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

and likewise, the fact he raised mney for chairty doesn't excuse the fact he raped children

Of course its doesn't excuse that. I'm not talking about Sandusky, I'm talking about all those innocent people who gave money to the charity.

Dodge wrote: »

If they missed 4 end of year awards shows, I think I'd be Ok...

Its a hell of a lot worse than that and you know it. I still don't know what the point of your last post was, can you explain it to me?

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Its a hell of a lot worse than that and you know it.

How is it worse for the current employees?

Rented Mule

Dodge wrote: »

How is it worse for the current employees?

They'll have to watch Penn State struggle on the football field on Saturdays. That's all the NCAA has done when you look at the bigger picture. They took away scholarships and bowl bids from the football team four the next for years.

The football team will still play their regularly scheduled games, but the NCAA has made it incredibly hard for them to compete for the Big Ten title.

me-skywalker

I agree with some of the penalties and not others, some of the others.

How is reducing the scholarship going to help poorer students getting an education and avoid falling out of the system and into petty crime, organised crime or other criminal related activities. How exactly does this punish the University?

By vacating all the wins does that mean the NCAA think that the players/coaches cheated used illegal drugs?

Dodge

me-skywalker wrote: »

How is reducing the scholarship going to help poorer students getting an education and avoid falling out of the system and into petty crime, organised crime or other criminal related activities. How exactly does this punish the University?

So everyone on a scholarship is destined for a life of crime? There's 20 less football scholarships in the NCAA system (where there's about 15,000 each year).

By vacating all the wins does that mean the NCAA think that the players/coaches cheated used illegal drugs?

Oh my god

Rented Mule

me-skywalker wrote: »

I agree with some of the penalties and not others, some of the others.

How is reducing the scholarship going to help poorer students getting an education and avoid falling out of the system and into petty crime, organised crime or other criminal related activities. How exactly does this punish the University?

By vacating all the wins does that mean the NCAA think that the players/coaches cheated used illegal drugs?

If they are good enough to play NCAA football for Penn State, then there should be dozens of other schools lined up to offer them scholarships.

Again, the vacating the team wins is more a slap at Joe Paterno than anything else. They take away the right to market him as the 'winningest coach in NCAA history'.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

If they are good enough to play NCAA football for Penn State, then there should be dozens of other schools lined up to offer them scholarships.

Again, the vacating the team wins is more a slap at Joe Paterno than anything else. They take away the right to market him as the 'winningest coach in NCAA history'.

This is seriously p1ssing me off and I wish people would do their homework before sprouting nonsense. Players can't just up and leave and find a new school. The player must ask to leave and another school must come in and ask for the player. Also other schools are limited to 25 in their recruiting class and 85 overall so that means other schools if already 85 will have to cut someone in order to fill a spot for a Penn State player or signed recruit. The NCAA have allowed the scholarship to carry over without penalty but the restrictions on numbers allowed are still in place. Seriously do your homework.

Now take all of the above into account it wont be easy for players to find new schools contrary to what people assume. Don't forget Penn State have varying levels as will other schools so the big names will probably find schools willing to take them but the more you move down the pecking order the less players will find new schools willing.

Dodge

CoachTO wrote: »

Now take all of the above into account it wont be easy for players to find new schools contrary to what people assume. Don't forget Penn State have varying levels as will other schools so the big names will probably find schools willing to take them but the more you move down the pecking order the less players will find new schools willing.

You're assuming they all want to leave. Plenty of players will want to stay as Penn State is still a good college academically. Any NFL bound players will either move, or remain there knowing that their play will stand out regardless of how many bowls the school goes to. Look at all the d2 playesr who make the draft.

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

This is seriously p1ssing me off and I wish people would do their homework before sprouting nonsense. Players can't just up and leave and find a new school. The player must ask to leave and another school must come in and ask for the player. Also other schools are limited to 25 in their recruiting class and 85 overall so that means other schools if already 85 will have to cut someone in order to fill a spot for a Penn State player or signed recruit. The NCAA have allowed the scholarship to carry over without penalty but the restrictions on numbers allowed are still in place. Seriously do your homework.

Now take all of the above into account it wont be easy for players to find new schools contrary to what people assume. Don't forget Penn State have varying levels as will other schools so the big names will probably find schools willing to take them but the more you move down the pecking order the less players will find new schools willing.

If they are good enough to play elsewhere, teams will find a home for them. We're talking about the NCAA here.

Let's us also reiterate the fact that Penn State will be playing football as scheduled next season. Every one of these players are having their scholarships honored during the time that they play for the University.

Syferus

The removal of the wins seem to be that, yeah. Some way of trying to get back at someone long gone from their reach. The collateral damage of that alone is tough for the players who played in the years between 1998 and 2011, being wrote out of history because of something that had no relation to what happened on the field.

Beyond every other sanction, the rest of which are at least morally (if not legally) just, that's a little heavy-handed. It sets a very strange precedent.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

If they are good enough to play elsewhere, teams will find a home for them. We're talking about the NCAA here.

Let's us also reiterate the fact that Penn State will be playing football as scheduled next season. Every one of these players are having their scholarships honored during the time that they play for the University.

Yes I know they are playing games but the fact of the matter is most of the student athletes that go to a school like Penn State is because of the size of the program the fact they are top football school and the fact they can hold their own up there with the best. This then gets them better exposure due to TV and the media and the fact if they make a big impact at the highest level in a school Like Penn State they draw interest by scout which ultimately leads to the NFL.

Penn State as it stands now is going to be a shadow of its former self in the next couple of years and the worst place to be for most of those guys who strive to go Pro.

And stop banging out the if you are good enough line. Plenty of guys good enough but caps on the amount of scholarships allowed in a roster spot will mean plenty of schools even if they want Penn state players wont be able to house them.

As for the education side of things lets face it most of the D1 players education is 2nd on their mind to going pro.

me-skywalker

Dodge wrote: »

So everyone on a scholarship is destined for a life of crime? There's 20 less football scholarships in the NCAA system (where there's about 15,000 each year).

Ok well that was probably a stupid example and a tenous link, but the point is there. Who really is it punishing?

CoachTO

Dodge wrote: »

You're assuming they all want to leave. Plenty of players will want to stay as Penn State is still a good college academically. Any NFL bound players will either move, or remain there knowing that their play will stand out regardless of how many bowls the school goes to. Look at all the d2 playesr who make the draft.

Small % of guys go to D1 schools for the academics. And I think you will find the majority of the non D1 guys in the Draft are FCS schools or D1AA as it used to be called and out of what near 400 players only around 20 of them are non D1. Most of them are there because of the team they played for at a lower level. Teams that dominate the lower divisions with big reputations which actually leads to my point.

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

Yes I know they are playing games but the fact of the matter is most of the student athletes that go to a school like Penn State is because of the size of the program the fact they are top football school and the fact they can hold their own up there with the best. This then gets them better exposure due to TV and the media and the fact if they make a big impact at the highest level in a school Like Penn State they draw interest by scout which ultimately leads to the NFL.

Penn State as it stands now is going to be a shadow of its former self in the next couple of years and the worst place to be for most of those guys who strive to go Pro.

And stop banging out the if you are good enough line. Plenty of guys good enough but caps on the amount of scholarships allowed in a roster spot will mean plenty of schools even if they want Penn state players wont be able to house them.

As for the education side of things lets face it most of the D1 players education is 2nd on their mind to going pro.

It is ironic that Penn State tied with Stanford for the highest graduation rates amongst Top 25 D-1 football programs.

I also understand that it is the dream of a lot of these guys to go pro. Pro Scouts have been watching most kids since they were in high school. 1-AA is also an option for some of these kids.

In saying all of that, what better way to show that you are pro-ready than by standing out on a horse**** team in one of the better conferences in the nation.

I still think you are going to find other NCAA programs cherry-picking a good bunch of the starters at Penn State. They may not all be ranked programs, but they'll be places for them.