The End of JoePa in Penn State

Chardee MacDennis

Rented Mule wrote: »

WOW. The football players are 'the real victims' ? Really poor choice of words.

The football players are all free to transfer without having to sit out a year. If the only reason that they are at Penn State is to play football then it doesn't matter which University they attend.

i guess some people dont want the facts to get in the way of a good argument hey?

matthew8

Really it hurts the whole university, even the academic side.

JaMarcus Hustle

Oh ffs, Davy clearly meant the players were the real victims of this punishment.

Rented Mule

matthew8 wrote: »

Really it hurts the whole university, even the academic side.

As far as 'collateral damage', think about what this scandal has done to the value of a Penn State degree. Imagine what it must be like to go into an interview with Penn State on your CV at the moment.

The incoming freshman class knows exactly what this University has done. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

Chardee MacDennis

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Oh ffs, Davy clearly meant the players were the real victims of this punishment.

Huh?

davyjose

Allow me to clarify: The kids that were abused were kids placed in the hands of Penn state. They were under the care of Penn state officials, left alone in the locker rooms with sandusky, etc.

My point is: the current football players (while older, and not actual victims), are the ones being punished. why should they suffer because the very same people they put their welfare in the hands of commited such gruesome acts of abuse and negligence?

davyjose

BastardPrince wrote: »

they can move to another school with no restrictions. In fairness the NCAA have done their best to look out for the athletes in this situation imo.

In late July? This ruling could have been made the moment Sandusky was arrested.

Chucky the tree

Rented Mule wrote: »

As far as 'collateral damage', think about what this scandal has done to the value of a Penn State degree. Imagine what it must be like to go into an interview with Penn State on your CV at the moment.

The incoming freshman class knows exactly what this University has done. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

Not sure it would make any difference, unless the interviewer was really dumb tbh.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd

They got off lighter than they deserved imo.

JaMarcus Hustle

You know this is big news when, for the first time ever, college football is mentioned on Sky Sports News :eek:

Rented Mule

davyjose wrote: »

Allow me to clarify: The kids that were abused were kids placed in the hands of Penn state. They were under the care of Penn state officials, left alone in the locker rooms with sandusky, etc.

My point is: the current football players (while older, and not actual victims), are the ones being punished. why should they suffer because the very same people they put their welfare in the hands of commited such gruesome acts of abuse and negligence?

If anything, the NCAA is allowing them to finish their degrees, football careers elsewhere. That could be the biggest gift that any of them ever receive in life. They can walk away from this mess and start fresh.

My question is 'why would any self respecting human being with a conscience want to pull on a Penn State football jersey?'.

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

My question is 'why would any self respecting human being with a conscience want to pull on a Penn State football jersey?'.

That's an astonishingly and disgustingly short sighted and ignorant view of things.

LuckyLloyd

davyjose wrote: »

Allow me to clarify: The kids that were abused were kids placed in the hands of Penn state. They were under the care of Penn state officials, left alone in the locker rooms with sandusky, etc.

My point is: the current football players (while older, and not actual victims), are the ones being punished. why should they suffer because the very same people they put their welfare in the hands of commited such gruesome acts of abuse and negligence?

Nope. What is being punished here is the rabid Penn State Football culture that helped to create an atmosphere where such decisions could be made in the interests of not rocking the boat and hurting the football program. The culture that defended Joe Paterno and professed it's love for PSU even as the revelations became ever more sickening. The culture that will see thousands of people pay through the turnstiles to watch PSU play in Happy Valley next chance they get.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE LET'S FOOTBALL

The players can transfer or stay and play, whatever. But this program, the culture of Joe Paterno and Penn State has had its back broken - and it is the very least it deserves. It should have been ground into the dust.

LuckyLloyd

This puts it better than I ever could:

MyTurn2Raise wrote: »

Really is a sad day.
There's just no solution here.

I think if the PSU cultists hadn't acted so cult-like, the penalties wouldn't be what we are hearing. Everytime I think the penalties are too much or punishing the wrong people, I read the comments section and have to be reminded that a significantly greater than zero amount of the PSU fanbase still doesn't get it. It's clinging to the old image of JoePa and their program that's bringing forth the hammer, IMO. If there was a lot of contrition, a lot of my bad, and so forth, I think everyone would move on. Fighting tooth and nail to protect the legacy of a child predator enabler makes me lust for some pain for the fanbase.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope. What is being punished here is the rabid Penn State Football culture that helped to create an atmosphere where such decisions could be made in the interests of not rocking the boat and hurting the football program. The culture that defended Joe Paterno and professed it's love for PSU even as the revelations became ever more sickening. The culture that will see thousands of people pay through the turnstiles to watch PSU play in Happy Valley next chance they get.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE LET'S FOOTBALL

The players can transfer or stay and play, whatever. But this program, the culture of Joe Paterno and Penn State has had its back broken - and it is the very least it deserves. It should have been ground into the dust.

No you have this all wrong. The whole college has been punished. The athletics, baseball, wrestling etc. programs have all been punished as a result of the reduction in scholarships.

The kids from poor backgrounds who have scholarships have to stay there in a very uncompetitive school. Yeah they are free to transfer to other schools but thats as walkons and a lot of them cannot afford to go to college without a scholarship. And there will be 10 less students getting scholarships each year which means that some kids who cannot afford to go to college will lose out.

The people that should be getting punished here are the ones that covered this up and not the young kids who weren't there then and had no part in this. But the kids are getting punished here and not the managers and administrators.

And as far as the football program is concerned, the Nittany Lions are one of the most well supported teams in college football. They will come back from this and people love to see a comeback story. There is the potential there now for them to become even more popular in a couple of years than they ever were.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

And as far as the football program is concerned, the Nittany Lions are one of the most well supported teams in college football. They will come back from this and people love to see a comeback story. There is the potential there now for them to become even more popular in a couple of years than they ever were.

I'm going to deal with your last paragraph first because it is astoundingly incorrect:

Kids in the 4th grade now will be starting in college the first year Penn State is fully restored to 85 scholarships. This program is going to be one of the worst D1 schools period for the next five years. They will have no prime time TV slots for over a half decade, and it might be a full 10 years before they could realistically be competitive again - and that is a long time in terms of a program's relevance.

"More popular in a couple of years than they ever were"

?

Not even close. There may very well be a feel good story of renewal and regrowth, but it is a decade away and the cult of PSU will have vanished forever.

eagle eye wrote: »

No you have this all wrong. The whole college has been punished. The athletics, baseball, wrestling etc. programs have all been punished as a result of the reduction in scholarships.

The kids from poor backgrounds who have scholarships have to stay there in a very uncompetitive school. Yeah they are free to transfer to other schools but thats as walkons and a lot of them cannot afford to go to college without a scholarship. And there will be 10 less students getting scholarships each year which means that some kids who cannot afford to go to college will lose out.

The NCAA has suspended a number of rules regarding transfers:

- no loss of eligibility;
- suspension of normal rules regarding approach of committed student athletes;
- new rules allowing schools that take on PSU transfers to exceed scholarship limitations for this season with the proviso that they hit normal numbers by this time next year;

Players can up sticks and transfer and they will receive a full scholarship elsewhere if they do so.

As for the bolded, they just go to school elsewhere!

eagle eye wrote: »

The people that should be getting punished here are the ones that covered this up and not the young kids who weren't there then and had no part in this. But the kids are getting punished here and not the managers and administrators.

The ones who covered this up did so because they felt winning was worth overlooking the repeated sexual abuse of defenceless kids. When winning means so much, this punishment hits them right in the jaw. For everyone obsessed with Joe Pa's winning record, for everyone so blinded by the "WE ARE PSU" nonsense that they could facilitate this horrifying behaviour.

The current students rioted last year when Joe Pa was forced to resign. They have defended him stoutly, protested at the removal of statues etc, etc. This is their wake up call, and it is NECESSARY that they receive this punishment to jolt them back to reality.

Everyone involved with Penn State is taking a beating here, because their records and their Big 10 titles and bowl games are gone for the next decade. They are being forced to reflect on where PSU football should properly rest in terms of priorities, and all through out this saga they have demonstrated an inability to do this of their own accord.

---

Also, I must confess that I find 'but what about the current kids' strand of opinion extremely distasteful - what about the now grown kids abused time and time again via the PSU Football program? I know there is no malice in people saying this, it's a simple way to break things down, but the above post does speak of a focus on the footballing effects of today's decision. This case is so much more important than the footballing fortunes of the current PSU roster.

CoachTO

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The NCAA has suspended a number of rules regarding transfers:

- no loss of eligibility;
- suspension of normal rules regarding approach of committed student athletes;
- new rules allowing schools that take on PSU transfers to exceed scholarship limitations for this season with the proviso that they hit normal numbers by this time next year;

Players can up sticks and transfer and they will receive a full scholarship elsewhere if they do so.

All of the above is fantastic if these kids can find schools willing to take them on and honour their scholarships. Some of these kids might not get the opportunity to transfer to another D1 program who will want them and in some cases might have to settle for lower programs where scholarships are not available to the schools in the first place and where the kids pay for themselves.

The stupid thing is so many people are looking at the "Owe they can transfer out" too easy. Its not as easy as people make out and many kids will fall to the wayside in this. Are the NCAA going to help these kids find new schools and football programs willing to take them on? Not a chance.

Now having said that PSU deserve everything they got and more. And the idiots standing by Paterno and the school and just that idiots including a couple of friends of mine. Out of the 5 I know who are alumni 2 of them are brainwashed by the legend of the man.

LuckyLloyd

By the way, if the kids have to stay and play out a couple of losing seasons they still get their education right? Hardly a disaster.

JaMarcus Hustle

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, I must confess that I find 'but what about the current kids' strand of opinion extremely distasteful - what about the now grown kids abused time and time again via the PSU Football program?

And do you honestly think they are now thinking "Well jeez, thank God Penn State won't play in a bowl game anytime soon. That makes me feel an awful lot better."...?

Eagle Eye is right, the wrong people have been punished here. Sandusky aside, the Freeh Report assigned the blame to four men - Graham Spanier (President), Gary Schultz (Vice President), Tim Curley (Athletic Director) and Joe Paterno.

Sandusky has been exposed as the disgusting monster he is. He will die in a prison cell, wearing an orange jumpsuit all by himself.

Joe Paterno is dead. Fired from his job, his reputation is forever destroyed and his legacy stripped. You won't find his name anywhere on a campus where he was employed for over 60 years. Today's sanctions remove his name from every NCAA record he had achieved.

Gary Schultz has been fired and is awaiting trial for perjury. He will serve a prison sentence.

Tim Curley, has been fired, and is awaiting trial for perjury. He also will end up in prison.

Spanier has been forced to resign and will never work in the education system again.

These are the people at fault here, and they haven't been punished anywhere near as much as they should be. Tell me this - how does Penn State losing 20 scholarships and bowl games affect any of the above 5 individuals? How does it punish them in any slight way for the wrongs they have committed?

It's simple - it doesn't. Today's announcement will not impact them in any way whatsoever. But who it will impact are coaches like Bill O'Brien, who left what some would call the cushiest OC job in the NFL to take on his first Head Coaching role in his career. How about young players like Jordan Hill who has worked his ass off for 3 years to finally have a chance at being the man on defence, now knowing he won't play in a bowl game for the rest of his collegiate career? Not to mention all the players who will take up the option of uprooting their lives to move college, whether that be to play in bowl games or to avoid being thought of as somehow linked to a child molester, as small-minded posters such as Rented Mule seem to think. These are kids that are younger than Sandusky's youngest victim, who would have had absolutely no idea what was going on - they probably had no idea they could even play football when Sandusky first raped a child.

A lot of your anger seems to be directed at the fans. I guarantee you the vast majority of them are not rioting anymore (that was well before Paterno was suspected, way before the Freeh report). You will always have a minority of idiots who will still voice stupid opinions.

The wrong people are being punished here. Is it a disgrace? Not entirely, the fine of $60 million to go to various charities is a positive move. Allowing players to transfer if they wish was just and fair. But those who were in the wrong have not been punished at all today.

Chucky the tree

It sends out a message that people who act out of order will be punished, but so will the school. Consider it a available life lesson for the kids, your actions have consequences for more people than just yourself so take that into account before you do something stupid. It also be a signal to colleges that they should have system in place were 4 people can't keep something like this in-house.

frostie500

The way that I look at it is that the NCAA's job is to investigate and punish breaches of NCAA regulations. This was a grievousness breach of of the law and fell into the district of the courts who handed out a reasoned penalty to the primary perpetrator while also having pending cases against other suspects.

The NCAA getting involved in this to such an extent now gives precedent for other cases where schools and coaches look to cover up a case of illegal activity.

Not to belittle this case, obviously I am aware of the seriousness of it, but how does it differ from the Ohio State tattoo case? How would it differ from a case where a star QB is involved in stealing something and his school covered it up?

The answer is that in the eyes of precident it doesn't differ and now the NCAA would be forced to use these severe punishments for any case where a school looks to coverup activities by their football programme

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

The way that I look at it is that the NCAA's job is to investigate and punish breaches of NCAA regulations. This was a grievousness breach of of the law and fell into the district of the courts who handed out a reasoned penalty to the primary perpetrator while also having pending cases against other suspects.

The NCAA getting involved in this to such an extent now gives precedent for other cases where schools and coaches look to cover up a case of illegal activity.

Not to belittle this case, obviously I am aware of the seriousness of it, but how does it differ from the Ohio State tattoo case? How would it differ from a case where a star QB is involved in stealing something and his school covered it up?

The answer is that in the eyes of precident it doesn't differ and now the NCAA would be forced to use these severe punishments for any case where a school looks to coverup activities by their football programme

This is a good thing, no?

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This is a good thing, no?

Is it a good thing if Ohio State had the same penalties for the "tattoo scandal" of last year? That is what the NCAA has left themselves open for. For anyone that doesn't know Jim Tressel, then head coach, was aware that numerous players were involved in a scheme whereby they would exchange their uniforms, bowl rings and other merchandise for tattoos.

The school did not make the NCAA aware of these violations of regulations, just as Penn State didn't alert them to this case, and were later found to have knowingly withheld information from the NCAA.

Do you think that using cases such as the OSU and other examples where schools don't report violations would deserve to be penalised as much as Penn State? In the eyes of the law, and NCAA bylaws, precedent has now been set for cases where schools coverup violations and a respective penalty for the crime has been determined

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

The way that I look at it is that the NCAA's job is to investigate and punish breaches of NCAA regulations. This was a grievousness breach of of the law and fell into the district of the courts who handed out a reasoned penalty to the primary perpetrator while also having pending cases against other suspects.

The NCAA getting involved in this to such an extent now gives precedent for other cases where schools and coaches look to cover up a case of illegal activity.

Not to belittle this case, obviously I am aware of the seriousness of it, but how does it differ from the Ohio State tattoo case? How would it differ from a case where a star QB is involved in stealing something and his school covered it up?

The answer is that in the eyes of precident it doesn't differ and now the NCAA would be forced to use these severe punishments for any case where a school looks to coverup activities by their football programme

Really?

TaosHum

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

And do you honestly think they are now thinking "Well jeez, thank God Penn State won't play in a bowl game anytime soon. That makes me feel an awful lot better."...?

Eagle Eye is right, the wrong people have been punished here. Sandusky aside, the Freeh Report assigned the blame to four men - Graham Spanier (President), Gary Schultz (Vice President), Tim Curley (Athletic Director) and Joe Paterno.

Sandusky has been exposed as the disgusting monster he is. He will die in a prison cell, wearing an orange jumpsuit all by himself.

Joe Paterno is dead. Fired from his job, his reputation is forever destroyed and his legacy stripped. You won't find his name anywhere on a campus where he was employed for over 60 years. Today's sanctions remove his name from every NCAA record he had achieved.

Gary Schultz has been fired and is awaiting trial for perjury. He will serve a prison sentence.

Tim Curley, has been fired, and is awaiting trial for perjury. He also will end up in prison.

Spanier has been forced to resign and will never work in the education system again.

These are the people at fault here, and they haven't been punished anywhere near as much as they should be. Tell me this - how does Penn State losing 20 scholarships and bowl games affect any of the above 5 individuals? How does it punish them in any slight way for the wrongs they have committed?

It's simple - it doesn't. Today's announcement will not impact them in any way whatsoever. But who it will impact are coaches like Bill O'Brien, who left what some would call the cushiest OC job in the NFL to take on his first Head Coaching role in his career. How about young players like Jordan Hill who has worked his ass off for 3 years to finally have a chance at being the man on defence, now knowing he won't play in a bowl game for the rest of his collegiate career? Not to mention all the players who will take up the option of uprooting their lives to move college, whether that be to play in bowl games or to avoid being thought of as somehow linked to a child molester, as small-minded posters such as Rented Mule seem to think. These are kids that are younger than Sandusky's youngest victim, who would have had absolutely no idea what was going on - they probably had no idea they could even play football when Sandusky first raped a child.

A lot of your anger seems to be directed at the fans. I guarantee you the vast majority of them are not rioting anymore (that was well before Paterno was suspected, way before the Freeh report). You will always have a minority of idiots who will still voice stupid opinions.

The wrong people are being punished here. Is it a disgrace? Not entirely, the fine of $60 million to go to various charities is a positive move. Allowing players to transfer if they wish was just and fair. But those who were in the wrong have not been punished at all today.

Good post JH. Until this post, I thought it was a fair punishment. The thing is though, how could the NCAA have punished them severely enough without touching scholarships and bowl games?

The way I see it, is that this was allowed happen in the Athletic Department, therefore that department has to be punished severely and to do that the NCAA had to take away its ability to compete. Best way of doing that is by taking away the lure of PSU, so that top high school kids wont go there.

I understand that none of the student athletes currently at PSU had anything to do with it, but what else do you do apart from letting them leave on a transfer?

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

Is it a good thing if Ohio State had the same penalties for the "tattoo scandal" of last year? That is what the NCAA has left themselves open for. For anyone that doesn't know Jim Tressel, then head coach, was aware that numerous players were involved in a scheme whereby they would exchange their uniforms, bowl rings and other merchandise for tattoos.

The school did not make the NCAA aware of these violations of regulations, just as Penn State didn't alert them to this case, and were later found to have knowingly withheld information from the NCAA.

Do you think that using cases such as the OSU and other examples where schools don't report violations would deserve to be penalised as much as Penn State? In the eyes of the law, and NCAA bylaws, precedent has now been set for cases where schools coverup violations and a respective penalty for the crime has been determined

Different violations/rule breaking etc should carry different levels of punishment demanding on the severity of the violation. That should always be the case. A College who sweeps a couple of free tattos under the carpet should not get the same punishment as a College who covers up for a paedophile and gives him a free reign to continue abusing. I surprised this even needs to be explained tbh.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Really?

As I said earlier the NCAA is not an organisation that can carry out legal proceedings. They can simply punish schools for failing to abide by their charter of agreement to membership. In the eyes of the NCAA now any issue whereby there is a coverup of violations by a school now has a precedent. So therefore they would both be dealt with in the same manner in future.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Different violations/rule breaking etc should carry different levels of punishment demanding on the severity of the violation. That should always be the case. A College who sweeps a couple of free tattos under the carpet should not get the same punishment as a College who covers up for a paedophile and gives him a free reign to continue abusing. I surprised this even needs to be explained tbh.

Like I said the violation is the same in both cases. The NCAA is not an organisation that can hand out criminal prosecutions they can only hand out punishments based on violations of NCAA regulations. in the Penn State case, as in the OSU example I cited, it would be a failure to report activities of their football team.

The NCAA has now left itself open to any failure to report criminal activities by a player or coach as a punishable offence. I used the others as examples of offences that would now fall in the same domain as this case. There are no "extra ordinary" cases in law there are simply cases and precedent that is set.

The NCAA has now set a precedent and it is not for incidents of child sex abuse it is of instances whereby a school fails to report illegal activities on their campus.

Chardee MacDennis

davyjose wrote: »

In late July? This ruling could have been made the moment Sandusky was arrested.

it was the Freeh report that the punishment was based on though, it was only released last week.

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

Like I said the violation is the same in both cases. The NCAA is not an organisation that can hand out criminal prosecutions they can only hand out punishments based on violations of NCAA regulations. in the Penn State case, as in the OSU example I cited, it would be a failure to report activities of their football team.

The NCAA has now left itself open to any failure to report criminal activities by a player or coach as a punishable offence. I used the others as examples of offences that would now fall in the same domain as this case. There are no "extra ordinary" cases in law there are simply cases and precedent that is set.

The NCAA has now set a precedent and it is not for incidents of child sex abuse it is of instances whereby a school fails to report illegal activities on their campus.

It hasn't really left itself open. The NCAA can administer any punishment they see fit, it doesn't matter if it's as equal as the last on for the previous offence. They have no rules set in stone that say X violation will lead to Y punishment. It's no different to everyone other Governing body.