Chronicles of a fish: the days of surf and turf

RayCun

To celebrate Paddy's day I have just turned green with jealousy

menoscemo

That's great running especially given the circumstances. Remember in the actual event you will be given out water every 3 miles or so (drink as much of it as you can- I see the rookie mistake every marathon of people taking one swig and throwing away the bottle/cup and then suffering from dehydration near the end of the race).
The nausea was likely down to dehydration as much as anything.

BTW there is absolutely nothing in your training to suggest that you are in 3:30 shape. It looks much more like you are in 3:20ish shape . Those last 4 miles today really prove that.

Dory Dory

menoscemo wrote: »

That's great running especially given the circumstances. Remember in the actual event you will be given out water every 3 miles or so (drink as much of it as you can- I see the rookie mistake every marathon of people taking one swig and throwing away the bottle/cup and then suffering from dehydration near the end of the race).
The nausea was likely down to dehydration as much as anything.

BTW there is absolutely nothing in your training to suggest that you are in 3:30 shape. It looks much more like you are in 3:20ish shape . Those last 4 miles today really prove that.

So the nausea may have been dehydration? That would be a relief to me if it was just that. I will definitely take your advice and take on water. They have the course marked where the water stations are, so I will review that...and I will try to coordinate the bloks/gels with water too.

Oh my....so you convinced me weeks ago to consider the possibility of 3:30.....now 3:20?? :eek: Here's the deal....I took two breaks for water today, that's got to count negatively for me......the course is supposed to have more hills than I did today, so you have to factor that in......and the last two miles in particular were an effort, so there's that. I also think I naturally train closer to race pace than I should (born from my swimming days), so I probably look better on paper than I really am. BUT, with all that being said, I will absolutely promise you I will do my best on race day. It's new territory and a little scary, but I will try to relax, enjoy, pace-smart, not blow up, and finish with a smile on my face. I'd feel much better about 3:30 or less if this were a flat course, but it's hilly, so it all depends on how my body reacts to that.

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

menoscemo

I wouldn't worry about stopping for drinks, we all do it in training (well I do anyway), if anything it slows you down as it's harder to get going again.

Look, I guess everyone was worried for you at first as your long training runs seemed too fast for your target, but the fact that you have consistently ran long runs at these paces and always manahed to finish fast just shows that the target was soft. If you are running 20 miles at 8:05 pace in training while dehydrated, there is no reason to suggest you can't go under 8 min/mile in a race environment. Most runners would be happy that if they can do 13-15 miles @PMP in training that they will make target in a race, you're well ahead of that.

So yes, enjoy the day but don't sell yourself short either. Start handy and all will become clear after 10 miles!!

BeepBeep67

Nicely controlled run there, keep learning as you push those boundaries - how many weeks to the big day?

Dory Dory

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Nicely controlled run there, keep learning as you push those boundaries - how many weeks to the big day?

Three weeks from today. :eek::D

BeepBeep67

Dory Dory wrote: »

Three weeks from today. :eek::D

When are you heading to Taperville?

big mce

Great running there Dory.

Dory Dory

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

When are you heading to Taperville?

I think a "soft" taper will start in a week, then the real taper in two weeks. I'm still putting in the time on the bike, but I've switched all bike time to low resistance/high cadence. Dropped the swimming a few weeks ago - it's too physically draining and takes me an hour to travel there and an hour back.

Do you typically taper one/two/three weeks before a marathon?

BeepBeep67

Dory Dory wrote: »

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

When are you heading to Taperville?

Do you typically taper one/two/three weeks before a marathon?

I'm about to pop my marathon cherry - so I'm watching and learning with intent. I'll be forced into a 3 week taper with work travel, so will do some pacey treadmill runs while away and then focus on a proper 2 week taper.
Then need to figure out race week nutrition.

Dory Dory

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I'm about to pop my marathon cherry - so I'm watching and learning with intent. I'll be forced into a 3 week taper with work travel, so will do some pacey treadmill runs while away and then focus on a proper 2 week taper.
Then need to figure out race week nutrition.

I guess we're both virgins then.

Race week nutrition is an unknown for me as well. Post what you consume so I can learn.

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Race week nutrition is an unknown for me as well. Post what you consume so I can learn.

Eat what you always eat. Just eat less of it, for most of your taper, and more of it for the last two/three days of taper! Day before the race, I've gotten into the habit of eating my big carb meal at lunch-time and a lighter carb meal in the evening, just to increase the likelihood of sleep. Never works though.

Dory Dory

Easy Recovery Run

A short but sweet, loosey-goosey field run. Nothing really to report....nice day here.....grass is getting green....lots of little varmits rustling about.....I want my pool open.....legs and body feel good.

4.23 miles in 40:30.04 for an average pace of 9:34 min/mile.


Trainer

An easy spin on the bike while watching the Penguins and Flyers clash on ice. Nothing really to report.....both teams absolutely hate each other....lots of really good pushing, shoving and swearing.....Kris Letang is hands-down the hottest thing on ice....which reminds me, I want my pool open.....legs and body feel good.

25 miles in approximately 1 hour and 25 minutes.

Oryx

By the sounds of that, taper is gonna drive you NUTS

Dory Dory

Oryx wrote: »

By the sounds of that, taper is gonna drive you NUTS

Did I mention that Kris Letang is hot, the grass is getting green, and that I want my pool open? Yeah, taper is gonna suck.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Dory i would look at a 3 week taper as opposed to 2 weeks as your coming down off a higher level of cross training than most others preparing for a marthon so would need that little bit longer to leave the body in the best possible shape come race day.
You are going to fly it and your work ethic has been spot on just make sure the next 3 weeks you get it right. I would even go as far to say put up your projected 3 week lead in, stick it down on paper and get some feedback from here.

Dory Dory

Odin Drab Firefighter wrote: »

Dory i would look at a 3 week taper as opposed to 2 weeks as your coming down off a higher level of cross training than most others preparing for a marthon so would need that little bit longer to leave the body in the best possible shape come race day.
You are going to fly it and your work ethic has been spot on just make sure the next 3 weeks you get it right. I would even go as far to say put up your projected 3 week lead in, stick it down on paper and get some feedback from here.

Wow. Okay. I will look at my training plan tonight and post some thoughts tomorrow. I don't think I've ever tapered for anything for three weeks in my life, but then again I've never run a marathon either. I don't want my body to get stale or put on unwanted pounds...and there is the "going mad" issue...but we'll see what we come up with!

Oryx

I thought taper madness was a joke. Its not. Its a little like coming down off an addiction. But you need to tackle it as seriously and properly as everything else. Knowing your work ethic this will be harder for you than full on training.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Dory Dory wrote: »

Wow. Okay. I will look at my training plan tonight and post some thoughts tomorrow.I don't think I've ever tapered for anything for three weeks in my life, but then again I've never run a marathon either. I don't want my body to get stale or put on unwanted pounds...and there is the "going mad" issue...but we'll see what we come up with!

Or trained to the volume you have put your body through? With regards to going stale there should still be a level of intensity to some of your run sessions but at a reduced level to what you have done in previous weeks. Its all about keeping the sharpness but letting the body recover from the cumilative fatigue you have put it through over the campaign.
Cannot wait to see how you get on in your first marathon.

Dory Dory

@ Oryx...this is definitely an addiction.

@ jb....I am all over the place with how I'll do with this first marathon. Originally the goal was to just finish...then it morphed into a sub 4....then 3:50....and now I'm in crazy-land. I'm as curious as the next person to see how I'll do. I think if there were pacers at this marathon I'd feel better since I am not to be trusted with pace, but I will be put on my smart-cap and do my rookie best.

Dory Dory

jackyback gave me a bit of homework last night - to post what I had intended to do for these 3 weeks leading up to the marathon so if I am erring in a big way, then perhaps someone will save me before it's too late. Thoughts/suggestions are welcomed.

The plan I am using calls for 3 key sessions plus either crosstraining for 30-45 mins or rest on the other days of the week. I tend to add some mileage to the key sessions, and I tend to go closer to 1 1/2 hours of training on other days. I will start with what I did yesterday since that is technically in my 3 weeks prior to marathon time period.

Week 3 -
Sunday - 4.23 easy recovery field run at 9:34 pace, and 25 miles on the trainer. Total time spent, just over 2 hours.
Monday (today) - planned intervals that will total 4 miles of the fast stuff, plus about 4 miles of warmup/cool down/recovery - total, 8 miles. This is pretty close to the plan mileage-wise.
Tuesday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the traininer or a blend of the two. Plan on doing my normal 1 1/2 hours.
Wednesday - planned 5 mile tempo, but will add approx 5 easy miles in the field after (unless it's raining, then probably an easy 10 mile spin on the bike).
Thursday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the trainier or a blend of the two. Plan on doing my normal 1 1/2 hours.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - planned 13 miles at mp. Will probably spin the legs out on the bike for 10 miles afterwards.

Week 2 -
Sunday - I think I might do a little hill work. Only 6 miles, and I'll go at an easy pace, but to trot some hills in a relaxed fashion might be good for my confidence and body. I'm sure I'll also spin on the bike for 30ish miles - low resistance/high cadence.
Monday - planned intervals that will total approx 3 1/2 miles of the fast stuff, plus about 4 miles of warmup/cool down/recovery - total 7 1/2 miles.
Tuesday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the trainer. Plan to drop this time spent to about an hour.
Wednesday - planned 6 mile tempo run (2 easy, 3 fast, 1 easy). If it's gorgeous outside, may come home and do an additional 2 miles easy in the field to total the night at 8 miles.
Thursday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the trainer. Approximately one hour total.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - planned 8 - 10 miles at mp. Will probably spin the legs out on the bike for 10 miles afterwards.

Week 1 -
Sunday - probably a short easy run (4 - 6 miles) and maybe an easy spin. Total time will be 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
Monday - planned intervals that will total 1 1/2 miles of the fast stuff, plus about 4 miles of warmup/cool down/recovery - total 5 1/2 miles.
Tuesday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the trainer. Approximately 45 minutes total.
Wednesday - planned 3 mile tempo at mp. May do one or two extra easy, easy, easy miles in the field if it's a beautiful evening.
Thursday - depending on weather, either a recovery run in the field or an easy spin on the trainer. Approximately 30 - 40 minutes total.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - 26.2 miles at mp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BeepBeep67

Personally I think you've too much quality in the last 3 weeks; week minus 3 has intervals 4 miles, tempo 5 miles and MP 13 miles, this looks to be about 50% of your weekly mileage. You could probably take 1 mile out of the tempo and consider doing it as a 2+2 and if your only running 13 this Sunday cut the MP miles back to 5 or 6.
What I've read about tapering, typically brings your mileage down by 20-25% week on week, but keeping the frequency and keeping the overall quality at the same percentage levels against your total weekly mileage.
I'm sure others with more experience in the longer stuff will add to or contradict me

Dory Dory

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Personally I think you've too much quality in the last 3 weeks; week minus 3 has intervals 4 miles, tempo 5 miles and MP 13 miles, this looks to be about 50% of your weekly mileage. You could probably take 1 mile out of the tempo and consider doing it as a 2+2 and if your only running 13 this Sunday cut the MP miles back to 5 or 6.
What I've read about tapering, typically brings your mileage down by 20-25% week on week, but keeping the frequency and keeping the overall quality at the same percentage levels against your total weekly mileage.
I'm sure others with more experience in the longer stuff will add to or contradict me

When you talk about math and computations I start to salivate.....
Okay...I looked at my last 6 weeks of training and here's what I come up with on average:

Per week, I cycle ~114 miles
Per week, I run ~ 39 miles
(Swimming is a moot point)

Of those 39 miles running, 24 miles are of "quality" and not recovery - meaning that they are either fast intervals, fast tempos, or my long runs. So my quality to total run percentage is 62%....therefore, I need to make sure my quality miles stay at approximately 62% of my total run miles while reducing the overall mileage for the next three weeks. (am I following you?)

If so, then if I keep this week's running mileage at the proposed 35.23 miles (that then means I'm only spinning the other non-planned running days) then my quality miles need to be around 22 miles which is bang on to what I've proposed. BUT, the total reduction in miles with my proposed plan is only 10% this week. Do you think that's not enough reduction? :eek:

I will probably only spin on the trainer about 90 miles this week, which results in a reduction of approximately 20%. And as mentioned, it's all low resistance and high cadence at this point.

Krusty_Clown

8-10 miles at pmp the week before your marathon is crazy. Even the 13 mile pmp the week before is slightly crazy, for someone heading for their first marathon. That is unless you find your pmp pace extremely easy to run.

Personally I'd swap these out for:
Week3 Saturday: 11 miles easy + 4 miles at pmp
Week2 Saturday: 8 miles easy + 3 miles at pmp

Again, this is unless you find pmp ridiculously easy to run (low heart rate, low perceived effort, low impact on legs/muscles/joints), in which case, you can get away with it (but will need to run a much faster marathon next time around!).

donothoponpop

What's your PMP Dory? At this stage you should have it defined, little you can train for now that will make you much faster on the day.

Dory Dory

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

8-10 miles at pmp the week before your marathon is crazy. Even the 13 mile pmp the week before is slightly crazy, for someone heading for their first marathon. That is unless you find your pmp pace extremely easy to run.

Personally I'd swap these out for:
Week3 Saturday: 11 miles easy + 4 miles at pmp
Week2 Saturday: 8 miles easy + 3 miles at pmp

Again, this is unless you find pmp ridiculously easy to run (low heart rate, low perceived effort, low impact on legs/muscles/joints), in which case, you can get away with it (but will need to run a much faster marathon next time around!).

Is pmp extremely or rediculously easy? The short answer is no. I've got two peeps I respect telling me to drop the PMP mileage on those two runs, so that's what I will do. Thank you and BeepBeep very much.

donothoponpop wrote: »

What's your PMP Dory? At this stage you should have it defined, little you can train for now that will make you much faster on the day.

My PMP....? The short answer is 8 min/mile.

Marthastew

I'll leave the technical stuff to those with the experience, plenty of great advice regarding your taper on here already.

Your training has gone extremely well and you are in great shape, reading your last few posts I was reminded of the following quote by Ryan Hall from Runner's world a while back



[FONT=arial, helvetica]I constantly remind myself that resting takes confidence. Anyone can train like a mad man but to embrace rest and to allow all the hard training to come out takes mental strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]Ryan Hall[/FONT]

Dory Dory

Marthastew wrote: »

I'll leave the technical stuff to those with the experience, plenty of great advice regarding your taper on here already.

Your training has gone extremely well and you are in great shape, reading your last few posts I was reminded of the following quote by Ryan Hall from Runner's world a while back



[FONT=arial, helvetica]I constantly remind myself that resting takes confidence. Anyone can train like a mad man but to embrace rest and to allow all the hard training to come out takes mental strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]Ryan Hall[/FONT]

Brilliant. But I bet Ryan Hall wasn't in the SBR Challenge, now was he??

Seriously, it's a great quote with a lot of wisdom in there. I will embrace it and find my confidence. Thanks Marthastew!!

Marthastew

Dory Dory wrote: »

Brilliant. But I bet Ryan Hall wasn't in the SBR Challenge, now was he??

He asked to join but the powers that be turned him down, they only let REALLY special Americans in the challenge:)

donothoponpop

Dory Dory wrote: »

My PMP....? The short answer is 8 min/mile.

If you were to solicit advice from a hobbled crock in his 50's, he might suggest you should have a more definite answer to your PMP at this stage. The story of your race will depend on how good you feel at mile 16.