Occupy Galway Group (mod note added)

galwayfellaBETA

antoobrien wrote: »

Let me rephrase - it's not my fault it's everybody else's. Anybody who bought (not me) or rent (me) is part of the problem for supporting the above. We're all to blame, and the sooner we get that through our thick skulls the better.

We'll have to agree to differ on this. Everyone is not to blame. Renters are not to blame, those seeking simple family homes are not to blame. The majority of blame lies with those who controlled government policy, banking policy etc. House price inflation did massive damage to this economy it made us uncompetitive.

antoobrien wrote: »

If you want to protest go ask why the only company that's being persecuted is the Quinn group (whose jobs are mostly outside the pale) - while the D4 set are getting the kid glove treatment.

Sean Quinn made bad business decision. Everyone in Ireland has to pay for his bad business decisions (investing in Anglo) through a 2% insurance levy. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0913/breaking29.html

Agreed, lots of people are getting away with murder... NAMA is nothing but a bailout for the 'property industry complex' in Ireland.

antoobrien

galwayfellaBETA wrote: »

We'll have to agree to differ on this. Everyone is not to blame. Renters are not to blame, those seeking simple family homes are not to blame. The majority of blame lies with those who controlled government policy, banking policy etc. House price inflation did massive damage to this economy it made us uncompetitive.

Trying to absolve them (i.e. you and me both) of their share of the blame for supporting the property bubble and blaming all on those evil people who facilitated it is a bit naive.

There's a rather simple truth underlying all this, so simple it's easy to overlook.

Without the renters and home buyers there wouldn't have been a property bubble.

Without demand supply is useless - why the hell are there approx 20k empty dwellings in the country?

mikom

antoobrien wrote: »

Without demand supply is useless - why the hell are there approx 20k empty dwellings in the country?

Poor building controls.
And Johnny who bought in Fort Lorenzo or Carmel that rents in Mountbellew are not responsible for that.

They may have been the horses, but the Government coachman was the one who failed to pull the reins.

antoobrien

mikom wrote: »

Poor building controls.
And Johnny who bought in Fort Lorenzo or Carmel that rents in Mountbellew are not responsible for that.

They may have been the horses, but the Government coachman was the one who failed to pull the reins.

No, that's Carmel & Johnny forcing property developers to look for cheaper land. And they, not the government were the ones holding the reins.

The best the government could have done was put in a few speed bumps, like replacing stamp duty with an annual property tax 10 years ago. Then again that would have been the turkeys voting for Christmas - which is exactly what home buyers and renters did during the boom.

galwayfellaBETA

antoobrien wrote: »

There's a rather simple truth underlying all this, so simple it's easy to overlook.

Without the renters and home buyers there wouldn't have been a property bubble.

Without demand supply is useless - why the hell are there approx 20k empty dwellings in the country?

so following your line of though.... Grocery price in Ireland are 25% more expensive than the UK because those bloody Irish people keep buying food :-)

Renters & homebuyers had bugger all to do with the bubble.... people need a roof over their heads.

A quarter of all mortgage in Ireland are 'buy-to-let'.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/28/idUSL6E7HS28C20110628
Everyone who wanted to buy a family home in Ireland had to compete and bid against the buy-to-let crowd. The buy-to-let crowd mostly got finance by flipping property or refinancing other property. When I was buying a home, I was outbid on a number of occassion by people buying-to-let.

The powers that be (FF/Bankers) though this a good thing. It was not... it made house prices (and rents) more expensive for everyone.... everyone required higher wages. Ireland became uncompetitive. Fianna Fail and their Galway Tent buddies got rich!

Head The Wall

galwayfellaBETA wrote: »

I have no problem paying for the national debt... no issue at all.

However, I have a MASSIVE problem with generations of Irish people paying tax so that private businesses (German & French Banks/bondholders) do not have to take a loss on bad business decisions (lending to Anglo).

You may have had the fear of god put in you about the whole 'burning of bondholders' (which is a terrible term, if we lived in a real capitalist society they would just be failed businesses) but I do not think it would be that traumatic.

The floppy haired one has been right on a lot of things over the past 10 years and I would go with his suggestion before any of the past (FF) or the current (FG/LAB) amateurs. Have a watch of this http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1117989

There are threads in the Irish Economy forum that discuss where the locations of the senior bondholders were, from what I recall around 17% of the exposure was to France and Germany and the majority was outside the EU. That may not suit your argument though

galwayfellaBETA

Head The Wall wrote: »

There are threads in the Irish Economy forum that discuss where the locations of the senior bondholders were, from what I recall around 17% of the exposure was to France and Germany and the majority was outside the EU. That may not suit your argument though

I have no idea who exactly they who they are. Even if they were Irish pension funds ... the tax payer should not be left with the bill.

Mrs OBumble

galwayfellaBETA wrote: »

so following your line of though.... Grocery price in Ireland are 25% more expensive than the UK because those bloody Irish people keep buying food :-)

Actually, there's some truth in that.

When I arrived in Ireland in 2007, the people shopping in Lidl & Aldi almost all had foreign accents. Irish relations told me they were "those funny bulk buy places" and told me to avoid them. People at work were a little more honest and explained that it would be too embarrassing to be seen there. Yes, there were a few Irish exceptions, but not many. And when I went to the regular supermarkets with relatives, I was stunned at how they purchased the luxury brands without a 2nd thought.

When the recession hit, and it suddenly became fashionable for Irish people to start thinking about value for money, that changed dramatically. Grocery prices did drop - because "those bloody Irish people" (75% of the population) started thinking about the price of what they were buying.

We would be in sooo much less shyte right now if they'd started thinking similar things about housing a lot earlier.

Head The Wall

galwayfellaBETA wrote: »

I have no idea who exactly they who they are. Even if they were Irish pension funds ... the tax payer should not be left with the bill.

There's a whole myth being perpetrated that our democratically elected govt were forced to guarantee the banks by the ECB to protect the EU banks. That is incorrect.


Using food prices as a comparison is not correct, people don't have the option to rent food, they can only buy it. We do have a choice to put a roof over our heads, we can buy, rent or squat.

I personally have not noticed rents fluctuating too much in the last 12 years in Galway city, yes they are a bit cheaper now but I don't recall the rent prices skyrocketing like house prices were during the boom. We were paying 800 for a 4 bed house in Knocknacarra in 2000

ultain

I Was down there this evening (left my fecking phone behind), Good decent bunch of peoples,from all different walks of life. Fair play to all concerned & never mind those who aren't.

(Keep warm, Mayo Eddie:))

FlashD

^^^^^ There are good and decent people in all walks of life but it dosen't mean that those with alternative views to the protesters are any lesser people.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is democracy.

Regards

cat_xx

I hope they move off soon. It looks like there is a halting site in eyre square. It really takes away from the city

hoorsmelt

antoobrien wrote: »

Everyone was greedy.
Everyone wanted more and were willing to pay through the nose for it (you with your now negative equity mortgage are a prime example).
Everyone that spent money fueled the cycle.
The more money that went into the system the more the banks saw was available.
The banks offered more money in loans than was prudent.
We borrowed more than was prudent.
Many people didn't save/save enough.
We mistook borrowings for wealth.
We didn't realize that they (borrowings) had to be paid back



No my logic is not flawed, yes everybody was responsible. Nobody forced us to borrow, we did it because we wanted to have something we couldn't afford with out of pocket spending.


No, there is no way one person could say stop.

That doesn't relieve us of collective responsibility for the mess we are in.

By the way why should I subsidize your mortgage (through taxes to prop up the banks, bank fees etc)? Rhetorical question don't answer.

Stop talking through your cakehole. The demographic that is suffering the most from unemplyoment and emigration is those under-30, the vast majority of whom have no mortgage and did not contribute to the build up of the property bubble. I am living with the consequences of decisions made by governments I couldn't vote for, not being of age to have the vote til this year's GE, my family did not get caught up in the boom craziness, but none of this has exempted me from forced emigration and rotting on the dole prior to that. We are not all to blame, we did not all party, and those idiots who say that we are are pathetic. Fair play to these protestors, they are achieving their aim of getting people talking about the causes of the crash and the disparities in society today and in distribution of wealth, and posing more fundamental questions about the nature of capitalism itself. To the haters and knockers, you've inadvertently fulfilled their key aim, they have got you talking about and mostly acknowledging the sickness in society today. They are winning so far.

It's a macro economic issue, one that many people are too small minded to see.

You saw the ripple effect of the collapse of Lehman brothers through the worldwide economy. They had about €560 billion in debt. Ireland's banks were guaranteed to the tune of €400 billion.

Lehmans gave the world economy a hell of a beating.

We would give it another good kick. Maybe strong enough to put us back in the 30s.

Why? We, as a nation, mistook borrowings for earnings.

Is that you Bertie :rolleyes:

mikom

cat_xx wrote: »

I hope they move off soon. It looks like there is a halting site in eyre square. It really takes away from the city

Don't worry, the "Christmas" market shacks will be along soon to even things up........

ultain

Faigh sios go dti eyre cearnach!

Irishgoatman

hoorsmelt wrote: »

antoobrien wrote: »

Stop talking through your cakehole. The demographic that is suffering the most from unemplyoment and emigration is those under-30, the vast majority of whom have no mortgage and did not contribute to the build up of the property bubble. I am living with the consequences of decisions made by governments I couldn't vote for, not being of age to have the vote til this year's GE, my family did not get caught up in the boom craziness, but none of this has exempted me from forced emigration and rotting on the dole prior to that. We are not all to blame, we did not all party, and those idiots who say that we are are pathetic. Fair play to these protestors, they are achieving their aim of getting people talking about the causes of the crash and the disparities in society today and in distribution of wealth, and posing more fundamental questions about the nature of capitalism itself. To the haters and knockers, you've inadvertently fulfilled their key aim, they have got you talking about and mostly acknowledging the sickness in society today. They are winning so far.



Is that you Bertie :rolleyes:

It's good to hear fron the new generation of voters but sad to read his/her words. Just read between the lines and ask yourselves if you had to think like this at that age!.

He/she has hit the nail on the head, the protesters have got people talking which was a big part of their aim.
They don't claim to have all the answers but they certainly have many questions that are now being discussed.
To often we, the general public, let things happen without asking WHY?.

dmcg90

cat_xx wrote: »

I hope they move off soon. It looks like there is a halting site in eyre square. It really takes away from the city

I think it adds a lot to the city, courageous spirit and a great overall aim.

Surrealean

I live just off Eyre Square, and pass by them everyday - I dunno where this notion of "Oh, they're making the place look like a dump" comes from. They're in a small, confined space, and they have a few signs up. I have not noticed an increase in rubbish; only the normal amount attributed to Eyre Square's other semi-permanent residents... so frankly, I don't see the big deal.

I just hope the weather improves for them.

Irishgoatman

Surrealean wrote: »

I live just off Eyre Square, and pass by them everyday - I dunno where this notion of "Oh, they're making the place look like a dump" comes from. They're in a small, confined space, and they have a few signs up. I have not noticed an increase in rubbish; only the normal amount attributed to Eyre Square's other semi-permanent residents... so frankly, I don't see the big deal.

I just hope the weather improves for them.

The truth always comes out eventually.

It's good to hear from a local resident.

ultain

ultain wrote: »

Faigh sios go dti eyre cearnach!

Eyre Square / John F. Kennedy Memorial Park is An Fhaiche Mhór in Irish

Head The Wall

hoorsmelt wrote: »

antoobrien wrote: »

Stop talking through your cakehole. The demographic that is suffering the most from unemplyoment and emigration is those under-30, the vast majority of whom have no mortgage and did not contribute to the build up of the property bubble. I am living with the consequences of decisions made by governments I couldn't vote for, not being of age to have the vote til this year's GE, my family did not get caught up in the boom craziness, but none of this has exempted me from forced emigration and rotting on the dole prior to that. We are not all to blame, we did not all party, and those idiots who say that we are are pathetic. Fair play to these protestors, they are achieving their aim of getting people talking about the causes of the crash and the disparities in society today and in distribution of wealth, and posing more fundamental questions about the nature of capitalism itself. To the haters and knockers, you've inadvertently fulfilled their key aim, they have got you talking about and mostly acknowledging the sickness in society today. They are winning so far.



Is that you Bertie :rolleyes:

You will probably find that the people involved in the protest are actually the ill informed ones judging by their demands. There are plenty of people posting in this thread that are aware of the state our society is in at the moment and are against this protest only because it has ridiculous and unachievable aims.

Whenever we raise this issue we get told that we are in favour of taking it from the man etc. That statement couldn't be further from the truth

Yatesonskates

Head The Wall wrote: »

hoorsmelt wrote: »

You will probably find that the people involved in the protest are actually the ill informed ones judging by their demands. There are plenty of people posting in this thread that are aware of the state our society is in at the moment and are against this protest only because it has ridiculous and unachievable aims.

Whenever we raise this issue we get told that we are in favour of taking it from the man etc. That statement couldn't be further from the truth

Maybe their demands are ridiculous and unachievable, but how are these people and their demands bothering you and all the others who are objecting to these peaceable protesters?

I'm not hung up on exactly what their demands are, since their demands are being fine tuned and adjusted all the time. The important thing is that someone is protesting! I'm amazed that it has taken this long before people started to protest. Face it, we have all been taking it from the man for too long...

Head The Wall

So basically as long as someone is protesting you're happy regardless of what it's about. That's what I'm reading from your post.

I on the other hand would prefer it they were protesting and aiming for something sensible and realistic and also educating people about the real issues. Then I would support that protest.

It says it all when they are changing and adjusting their demands mid protest, they either know what they want or they don't. Seems to me like they are protesting just for the sake of it.

Please inform me how we have all been taking it from the man for far too long considering we are a first world country with a very high standard of living

Irishgoatman

Head The Wall wrote: »

So basically as long as someone is protesting you're happy regardless of what it's about. That's what I'm reading from your post.

I on the other hand would prefer it they were protesting and aiming for something sensible and realistic and also educating people about the real issues. Then I would support that protest.

It says it all when they are changing and adjusting their demands mid protest, they either know what they want or they don't. Seems to me like they are protesting just for the sake of it.

Please inform me how we have all been taking it from the man for far too long considering we are a first world country with a very high standard of living

For me, as long as their protest is getting people talking they are doing more than most of us.

They are not there to educate people as you suggest. They are not saying that they have all the answers are they? they are pointing out the problems as they see them.

Of course they are changing and adjusting as they go along, that's because people are stopping and talking to them. what do unions do, for example when they go into a meeting with a list of demands? they negotiate.

Yatesonskates

No, I don't know if you missed my point or you just want to argue.

The point is, a lot of people are mad for good reasons and many different reason. We can change anything, but some of the things will be easy and others not so easy or maybe not worth the effort. The only real issue with the protesters is there are so many issues and so many angry people, they haven't all aligned or yet picked what battles they want to fight.

I'm not one of the protestors, but I'm happy to see people are finally speaking out. As far as educating people about the real issues, I think most people know what many of the issues are, although many still don't seem to understand some of them. Certainly no one is protesting for the sake of it and I doubt you really believe that, if you do that you have your head in a hole, not the wall.

As far as a first world country with a high standard, standards here and around the world are dropping quickly. In Ireland alone wages, benefits, opportunities and jobs are dropping like flies. Many big companies have taken advantage of the financial crisis and things have gotten seriously out of balance with more for the rich and less for the rest, and it is destroying our economy and hurting many. So if you want to be complacent, sit back and watch your great 1st world country erode quickly, but we need to be proactive and fix things before it's too late!

Finally, if you are happy with the way things are then great, I'm happy for you, but don't foget many people are hurting and they want to speak up and as long as they aren't infringing on your freedoms, don't try to shut them up just because you're happy.

FlashD

Irishgoatman wrote: »

The truth always comes out eventually.

It's good to hear from a local resident.

The truth is a very shady area on the internet.

I always feel its better to take on board people's views and opinions rather than believing a claim someone makes on the internet, this is regarded as second hand information, it could be taken as true or false.

The poster could be living on the other side of the planet for all we know.

Best way to find out is head down and find out for ones self.

Regards.

Galwayguy35

How do they have the time to sit around every day. They must not have any jobs. And it wont make a blind bit of difference if they sit in the square for the next 5 years. The universal social charge wont disappear from my payslip i dont think.

Irishgoatman

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

How do they have the time to sit around every day. They must not have any jobs. And it wont make a blind bit of difference if they sit in the square for the next 5 years. The universal social charge wont disappear from my payslip i dont think.

I suggest that you go and talk to them, If you are in Galway as your name might suggest.

You will find that many have jobs and are going there in their spare time and those that are unemployed? That is one of the problems that they would like a solution for. And before you say it, yes I know there are people in this world who do not want to work.

The feed back that I am getting from my Daughter, who goes down there as often as she can, is very positive with regard to the reaction from the public who stop and talk with them. And that is what counts, not what we ramble about on here.

FlashD.
Of course the poster may not be from Galway but some things you have to take at face value until you're shown otherwise.

-Vega-

Interdesting.

Mrs OBumble

Head The Wall wrote: »

So basically as long as someone is protesting you're happy regardless of what it's about. That's what I'm reading from your post.

I on the other hand would prefer it they were protesting and aiming for something sensible and realistic and also educating people about the real issues. Then I would support that protest.

It says it all when they are changing and adjusting their demands mid protest, they either know what they want or they don't. Seems to me like they are protesting just for the sake of it.

Please inform me how we have all been taking it from the man for far too long considering we are a first world country with a very high standard of living

+1

I'd be far happier if their protest didn't involve breaking the law (re overnight camping in Eyre Square) and moving into substandard accommodation (where do they shower? what's the chances of them getting sick and needing hospital care as it get colder? who's looking after the houses they're supposed to be living in?).

Seems to me that Irish people have been sticking it to the man for a very long time. Was fine when the man was England, no fine now it's just other Irish people.

I'm not so convinced re the high standards here. High aspirations, sure. But there are problems in sooo many areas ....