‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

EI_Flyboy

Maybe the vast majority of the protesters don't understand in full the intricacies of the economics involved in the international marketplace but I don't see why that should keep them from protesting. Maybe the only prerequisite to qualify as a valid protester is a deep belief or understanding that what they are protesting against is very very very wrong.

Neither do I see that they fail to see that the IMF/EU/Troika are the only show in town and that the paddle they offer is all that is available. I think they feel that that paddle is rigged to steer us in circles and what they have in mind is to jump ship.

It seems what they see is that the current course means fewer and fewer are getting richer and richer while more and more are getting poorer and poorer so the idea that their course of action will only lead to more pain is erroneous to them.

What I see is a huge build up of tension like the stretching of an elastic band that will at some point reach it's limit and snap back violently if the tension isn't released in a sensible controlled manner. I don't see any evidence of sensible control.

Nate--IRL--

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Maybe the only prerequisite to qualify as a valid protester is a deep belief or understanding that what they are protesting against is very very very wrong.

That is the problem - for a protest to be effective it would need to be directed in way that matters, by not understanding what they are protesting against, it is useless noise, directed aimlessly.

If they actually understood what was going on they would have been out protesting in 2008 against NAMA or the guarantee when it might have mattered.

Nate

The Waltzing Consumer

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

What I see is a huge build up of tension like the stretching of an elastic band that will at some point reach it's limit and snap back violently if the tension isn't released in a sensible controlled manner. I don't see any evidence of sensible control.

But this is just more apocalyptic scare mongering. People have saying this since 2008, if it was so true or even a bit or truth, then you see more and more protests with bigger numbers. This protest had what? 30. Plus they were not angry, it seemed like a normal saturday at central bank.

You see more tension when pubs close every night then what these protests pretend to be.

hatrickpatrick

Why in God's name are so many people around the world bashing this anti financial-sector movement?

Sure at the moment it's vague, sure at the moment it doesn't have a very clear agenda, but for f*ck's sake it's better than the three years of helpless b!tching on Joe duffy we've had, isn't it?

Occupy Wall Street and its offshoots may not be a perfect protest movement by a long shot, but dammit it's SOMETHING, something we've been lacking for the last 4 years as people have just rolled over and taken it up the ass from these gobsh!tes. Now a small group of people have finally had enough and tried to start a dissent movement and they're being ridiculed by so many people - people who are ALSO being screwed over by the banks!!!

Every single person in this thread is paying tax in some form or another. Every single person in this thread is having money taken from them to pay for idiotic mistakes by others.

IMO, anyone who ridicules or bashes this movement is indirectly saying "you know what, I don't really five a f***".

Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. The scourge of our society.

hatrickpatrick

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

But this is just more apocalyptic scare mongering. People have saying this since 2008, if it was so true or even a bit or truth, then you see more and more protests with bigger numbers. This protest had what? 30. Plus they were not angry, it seemed like a normal saturday at central bank.

You see more tension when pubs close every night then what these protests pretend to be.

No one ever claimed that revolution was an overnight affair. How many years of failed start-up protest movements did it take before the Arab Spring finally succeeded?
In fact you could argue that it still hasn't succeeded yet by a long shot, there are still many countries in which it's only just getting going.

The problem with the 21st century is that everyone expects instant results, people don't seem to realize anymore that protest movements evolve, and sometimes this evolution happens over a long period of time.

In other words, people need to be more patient about this. It may have been 30 people at the weekend, but those 30 people could be the seeds of something much bigger.

Do you think the United Irishmen had thousands of members and a clear, eloquent manifesto from day one? What about the Civil Rights movement? You think these things just appear fully fledged without any development phase?

hatrickpatrick

thebman wrote: »

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

I have to be honest I disagree here. I don't attend because I feel the government isn't listening. I attend because I know from history and from the media that overwhelming outpourings of rage and frustrations in gigantic numbers can actually sow the seeds of change.

EDIT: Consider the medical card protests back in 2009. The government was forced to go back on that proposal to restrict it because of the amount of rage generated in the streets and on the airwaves.
Are you honestly implying that protesting is a complete waste of time?

I'm on the committee for Save Our Seafront in Dun Laoghaire, where a succession of gigantic protest marches and rallies forced the county council to abandon its skyscraper plan for Dun Laoghaire Baths. Protesting DOES work. What kills it is mass apathy such as that being displayed in this thread.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have to be honest I disagree here. I don't attend because I feel the government isn't listening. I attend because I know from history and from the media that overwhelming outpourings of rage and frustrations in gigantic numbers can actually sow the seeds of change.

EDIT: Consider the medical card protests back in 2009. The government was forced to go back on that proposal to restrict it because of the amount of rage generated in the streets and on the airwaves.
Are you honestly implying that protesting is a complete waste of time?

I'm on the committee for Save Our Seafront in Dun Laoghaire, where a succession of gigantic protest marches and rallies forced the county council to abandon its skyscraper plan for Dun Laoghaire Baths. Protesting DOES work. What kills it is mass apathy such as that being displayed in this thread.

And both those protests you mention had clear and realisable aims, not just a giant chip on their shoulder. Protesting works if there's a clear aim other than grandstanding (and ideally to stop something), and it's not clear in the case of this specific protest that that's so - instead the aims are general, sloganistic, knee-jerk non-solutions.

What's on the thread isn't apathy but derision - and maybe that derision is misplaced, maybe the protesters will get it together, realise that at least one of their aims isn't even based in reality, and stop clapping themselves on the back for "doing something" when, frankly, they're not.

cordially,
Scofflaw

EI_Flyboy

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

That is the problem - for a protest to be effective it would need to be directed in way that matters, by not understanding what they are protesting against, it is useless noise, directed aimlessly.

If they actually understood what was going on they would have been out protesting in 2008 against NAMA or the guarantee when it might have mattered.

Nate

People don't protest when they do or don't understand issues, they protest when they feel pain. Maybe they didn't feel the pain in 2008 and are only beginning to feel it now. What they see is that they're the only ones being made to feel the pain and the bankers/politicians aren't sharing it but are still driving around in their beemers and mercs, getting nice bonuses. Pain and injustice, potent motivators.

This protest isn't just 30 people in tents on Dame st.(looked more like 80 to me when I strolled past lastnight), it's global, connected through facebook and twitter. It may seem aimless right now but whatever direction it takes, I'd imagine it'll be steered globally.

Congressman Peter King wrote:

“[W]e have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy,” he warned. “I’m taking this seriously in that I’m old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy… We can’t allow that to happen.”

Well, someone's taking them seriously.

SouperComputer

I don't understand why is it so difficult for some people to differentiate between a worthwhile protest and one thats not worthwhile because its based on idiocy.

You can't compare save our seafront and the medical card protests with this nonsense on Dame street.

Permabear

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irishh_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why in God's name are so many people around the world bashing this anti financial-sector movement?

Sure at the moment it's vague, sure at the moment it doesn't have a very clear agenda, but for f*ck's sake it's better than the three years of helpless b!tching on Joe duffy we've had, isn't it?

Occupy Wall Street and its offshoots may not be a perfect protest movement by a long shot, but dammit it's SOMETHING, something we've been lacking for the last 4 years as people have just rolled over and taken it up the ass from these gobsh!tes. Now a small group of people have finally had enough and tried to start a dissent movement and they're being ridiculed by so many people - people who are ALSO being screwed over by the banks!!!

Every single person in this thread is paying tax in some form or another. Every single person in this thread is having money taken from them to pay for idiotic mistakes by others.

IMO, anyone who ridicules or bashes this movement is indirectly saying "you know what, I don't really five a f***".

Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. The scourge of our society.

when people in america are protesting against unbridled capitalism , you know something is up

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

Permabear wrote: »

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Its worse than that @Permabear

They are blaming the financial sector when the should be directing their anger at politicians,
it was politicians who decided on regulation issues,
it was politicians who moved the world financial system of gold standard,
it was politicians who got to influence central bank to flood the world with cheap money,
it was politicians who decided to bailout banks instead of letting the rotten apples fall

20Cent

The New York Times is paying attention now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1


"It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself. It is also the first line of defense against a return to the Wall Street ways that plunged the nation into an economic crisis from which it has yet to emerge."

20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Its worse than that @Permabear

They are blaming the financial sector when the should be directing their anger at politicians,
it was politicians who decided on regulation issues,
it was politicians who moved the world financial system of gold standard,
it was politicians who got to influence central bank to flood the world with cheap money,
it was politicians who decided to bailout banks instead of letting the rotten apples fall

The financial sector own the politicians that's what they are trying to change.
They are protesting the the correct place.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

The financial sector own the politicians that's what they are trying to change.
They are protesting the the correct place.

Really? AIB/BOI/Anglo own FG/Labour ministers that got voted in
thats news to me :rolleyes:

Since the Regulator/Centralbank is on Dame street that should tell you that the need for reform lies with this state owned agency, the same agency whose employees collected paychecks while not doing their jobs.

Scofflaw

There is a major dissenting movement against the financial sector. It involves the short-selling of financial stocks, an effective vote of no confidence in the banks and the governments that undergird them.

Er, no, that's not a movement against the financial sector - it's a movement by the financial sector against government action in the sector.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers

20Cent wrote: »

The New York Times is paying attention now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1


"It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself. It is also the first line of defense against a return to the Wall Street ways that plunged the nation into an economic crisis from which it has yet to emerge."

lol, wrong thread they're not too interested in the Dame Street protest

O'Coonassa

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

What specifically do you find to be unrealistic about demanding a more direct form of democracy with a view to getting a more just solution to the problems with the monetary system?

People like you once said that the Universal franchise was unrealistic. I bet they'd feel like right idiots now if they weren't dead.

The Occupy Protests are part of a Global Movement of the people for the people by the people. You're either for the People or against them. Pick a side.

Scofflaw

O'Coonassa wrote: »

What specifically do you find to be unrealistic about demanding a more direct form of democracy with a view to getting a more just solution to the problems with the monetary system?

People like you once said that the Universal franchise was unrealistic. I bet they'd feel like right idiots now if they weren't dead.

The Occupy Protests are part of a Global Movement of the people for the people by the people. You're either for the People or against them. Pick a side.

To which the only deserved response is that in fact I'm the one on the side of the people, obviously. How can I tell? Well, 99.99733% of the people aren't at the protest in Dame Street, and I'm one of them.

amused,
Scofflaw

Crazy Horse 6

Just back from the protest and hoping to make it back down Tuesday evening after work.

Permabear

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20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Really? AIB/BOI/Anglo own FG/Labour ministers that got voted in
thats news to me :rolleyes:

Since the Regulator/Centralbank is on Dame street that should tell you that the need for reform lies with this state owned agency, the same agency whose employees collected paychecks while not doing their jobs.

Pretty much, do you remember "not a penny more for Anglo", tougher regulation and a cut on pay/bonuses for the bank executives? All these policies were dropped once FG/Lab got elected. Same in the US with Obama, take the money and influence out of politics.

So you reckon they are in the right place then good.

T

20Cent

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

lol, wrong thread they're not too interested in the Dame Street protest

Its part of a worldwide movement.

Scofflaw

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If it's a vote of no confidence in the 'establishment' side of the sector, that still doesn't make it anything other than a protest within the financial sector, and against government actions in the sector.

Moreover, what people are protesting about is the way the financial sector appears to dominate democratic government - and the 'short-selling movement', if it is a movement, is part of exactly such domination.

cordially,
Scofflaw

20Cent

Check it, Occupy Dame Street doing a national service with their debt clock.
Should be there permanently.

http://twitpic.com/6xv7z3

Nate--IRL--

20Cent wrote: »

Check it, Occupy Dame Street doing a national service with their debt clock.
Should be there permanently.

http://twitpic.com/6xv7z3

I like that. That's a good idea.

Nate

partyatmygaff

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

People don't protest when they do or don't understand issues, they protest when they feel pain. Maybe they didn't feel the pain in 2008 and are only beginning to feel it now.

It's no one's fault but their own that they are reactive rather than proactive. They should have anticipated that what happened in 2008 may have affected them in later years and they should have protested then when actually achieving a change was possible. Protesting because they "feel the pain" now is just a nuisance. An aimless "Let's all rant together in public" protest without any clear objectives is just an obstruction to other people's day to day lives.

This protest isn't just 30 people in tents on Dame st.(looked more like 80 to me when I strolled past lastnight), it's global, connected through facebook and twitter. It may seem aimless right now but whatever direction it takes, I'd imagine it'll be steered globally.

Actually, it is just 30/80 people in tents on Dame Street relative to the rest of the population. The general population (The people who really can make a difference) do not give a damn.

Let's look at the world's first ever social media orchestrated protest/revolution. I'm sure we all know what happened this spring in Egypt and the massive protests that occurred (And still occur nearly every week) in Tahrir Square.

They organised their protests over the internet in a country with

• Far less internet penetration than Ireland and the US.
• A government that cut off internet access and communication links to its population.
• A brutal police force.
• And daily curfews with threats of violence made to enforce it.

Yet in spite of all of this people turned up in their millions to protest in the square. They joined the protest because the protest had a purpose, a clear and well-defined objective. It was this clear objective that sustained them throughout.



Now let's get back to the situation at hand. What we have here are a group of people who more than likely live relatively comfortable lives out on the middle of a busy street camping out in expensive tests without any real purpose or end goal. No sensible person is going to go camp out on the streets to join an aimless protest against the "establishment".

Permabear

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FreudianSlippers

20Cent wrote: »

Its part of a worldwide movement.

Oh really, I hadn't heard anything about it. :rolleyes:


Doesn't change the fact that there is a more appropriate thread for your post.