New EU motorbike laws - Protests all over EU 25th Sept

daenerysstormborn3

Keith186 wrote: »

IMO it's not that big a deal Paddy but I would say it wasn't the wisest thing to do. I can't imagine the EU fat cats are licking their lips over a burn out.


Seems the RTE report is getting mixed up with the proposals. It mentioned rule to ban 7 year old bikes from urban areas was an EU proposal but wasn't it actually just a French one?

Yeah to be honest Keith that report was a bit all over the place. They didn't report accurately enough on why we were protesting and they just made it seem like "oh them bikers giving out about something or other".

The banning of bikes over 7 years old in urban areas is initially a domestic French proposal but the fear is that if it does get passed in France then the other countries will look to France as an example and want to bring it in also.

EvilMonkey

Lol at the news, its all ok the RSA is going to ask us what type of hi-vis we want. :rolleyes:

daenerysstormborn3

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Lol at the news, its all ok the RSA is going to ask us what type of hi-vis we want. :rolleyes:

lol When are they going to realise hi viz is not the way forward?! They should concentrate more on PPE and less on hi viz. They should concentrate more on VAT reduction on PPE and less on hi viz. They should concentrate on educating all road users and less on putting the onus on bikers to spend their time on the road taking responsibility for the driving of everybody else.

Hey EU, you don't like our lifestyle, we don't like your laws.

gipi

paddy147 wrote: »

You dont see protesting taxi men doing donuts on the road,or farmers in their tractors ploughing up Killdare Street.

I remember when the farmers brought sheep and let them loose in the Dept of Agriculture on Kildare St!

I think the news report was okay (burnouts aside...) although it wasn't 100% clear what the issues were to anyone who didn't know the whole story.

Still, it's a start!

Blondie919

There was nothing about it on the news at 9pm on rte. They must not have liked all the negative comments about their crap reporting of it earlier.

daenerysstormborn3

noelbrett@rsa.ie is the lad that's pushing the compulsory hi viz from the RSA.

I suggest you all contact him and bombard him with real factual information about bikers instead of whatever rubbish uncle gaybo is feeding him.

The vote on the legislation has been put back until next year apparently so the protests seem to have made an impact.

Jak O Shadows

pixiebean22 wrote: »

noelbrett@rsa.ie is the lad that's pushing the compulsory hi viz from the RSA.

I suggest you all contact him and bombard him with real factual information about bikers instead of whatever rubbish uncle gaybo is feeding him.

The vote on the legislation has been put back until next year apparently so the protests seem to have made an impact.

I will be emailing him tomorrow and sending it to Leo Varadkar as well.

I read the RSA motorcycle strategy today and most of it is pretty good. But a couple of things really bugged me. They want to encourage the use of protective clothing, but no mention of a VAT reduction, which is a very simple step to reducing the cost and encouraging use.

The mandatory hi-vis bit seems like it was just tagged on at the end. The rest of it talks about encouraging, education, promoting choices etc. and then they throw in mandatory full sleeved jackets. They also mention that rucksacks block up to 50% of hi vis vests so they could be banned too.

As others have said we could ride in shorts, t shirt, flip flops and as long as we are wearing a hi viz and a helmet it is hunky dory. We all know that it is failure to look that is a big part of the problem. If you don't look you can't see and it is irrelevant what we wear to attract attention. It is transferring the responsibility onto us. If hi vis is the answer for us why isn't it the answer for other vunerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians. It is a cop out, they can tick the box that they have implemented laws to improve motorcycle safety without actually engaging with the problem.

The EU proposals don't concern me so much at the moment as they are at a very early stage and will get substantially watered down by the time they become regulation. Still well worth letting them know we are watching and not happy.

NCT for bikes is also highly unlikely. There are 40,000 registered bikes, the cost of setting it up would be prohibitive, No company would be interested and the benefit would be negligible.

There is a very good article here on the EU rules.
http://www.righttoride.eu/?p=7567

Well done everyone i think there were at least 2000 bikes on the street across Ireland.

Is there an online petition anywhere, if not it may be worth setting one up. Also www.contact.ie is a good way of contacting politicians if you want to express your dissatisfaction with the stance of the RSA.

RRaff

Video of the protest on the 24th and 25th in Dublin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr4_sIWhd98
Hopefully more will be held over the next few weeks and on weekdays!
Anybody fancy a trip to the RSA offices to drive the message home?:D

sharondcork

personaly i think having the protest on a sunday was a stupid idea to begin with. What sort of impact did it have really?

These things need to be organised for about 3o'clock on a Friday afternoon. I know some people will have work (the lucky few that is) but i am pretty sure that there are plenty of unemployed bikers out there who would be more than willing to stop traffic in our towns and cities across the country. I believe it needs a bit more organisation next time with simultanous protest around the country on the same time and date everywhere and not just hidden away in a corner where no one knows whats going on (like what happened in Cork today until we decided to drive up patrick street)

These regulations are going to ruin biking in this country.
Hi Viz - NO WAY how dare they tell us what we can and can not wear on a bike try telling car owner that they can only wear a certin color jacket in their car at all times .......... wonder how far that one would get them

chasm

paddy147 wrote: »

Sure the car NCT system is totally corrupt and fcuked up,as was shown on RTE by PrimeTime recently.

Yeah and us bikers would be at a disadvantage because we have no sun visor to stick the €50 note behind

turbodiesel

chasm wrote: »

Yeah and us bikers would be at a disadvantage because we have no sun visor to stick the €50 note behind

I'd put mine under the seat.......:D

i'm sure it would fit beside the next proposals that would come in....

Mandatory Tool Kit/First Aid Kit/Warning Triangle(If the stupid compulsory Jacket idea comes this would follow within the next decade.....)

kevin-46

To all the irate car drivers abusing bikers nationwide today & yesterday, may I paint you a picture? Imagine being told that you had to use original dealer parts every time your car needed attention. Bye bye Halfords, Kwik Fit, etc. Imagine being regularly stopped by the police when you were out driving perfectly legally, for them to check you hadn't tampered with your vehicle or fitted any non-standard parts. Imagine being told that you were forbidden to drive unless you were wearing a certain colour clothing. ... Imagine having the control of your vehicle taken out of your hands and trusted to a computer. Imagine being told that your 7 year old car, your pride and joy, was now forbidden from entering towns and cities. Imagine (like in my case having to travel 180 miles to my nearest registered dealer for every service). This is the reason you were held you up for 20 minutes today. Be under no misunderstanding, the bikers are the first in line for draconian EU interference. If we fall, it will be a domino effect. Support us now, Bikers are fighting so that you wont have to.

carsQhere

Jak O Shadows wrote: »

I read the RSA motorcycle strategy today and most of it is pretty good. But a couple of things really bugged me. They want to encourage the use of protective clothing, but no mention of a VAT reduction, which is a very simple step to reducing the cost and encouraging use.

All the good stuff that was in the pre consultation version - use of bus lanes, advanced stop boxes, proper parking facilities, reducing VAT - was dropped in the post consultation version.

Hi-Viz is a red herring. Bike casualties have been in declining trend for a decade. According to this article in the Irish times, the number of bikers killed between 2001 and 2010 fell by two thirds.

I think it's there to make it look like something is being done when in fact there's no evidence as to it's effectiveness. In fact, table 8.1.3 of the MAIDS report (http://www.maids-study.eu - registration required) suggests high-viz has only a very limited effect on accident rates.

No studies have been done in the Irish context that I'm aware of. Nor has anybody made a distinction between the retro reflective aspect (night time use) and the flourescent aspect (daytime use).

Most bikers will happily wear a high viz in the appropriate circumstances, they simply want to retain the ability to choose for themselves.

Pataman

carsQhere wrote: »

All the good stuff that was in the pre consultation version - use of bus lanes, advanced stop boxes, proper parking facilities, reducing VAT - was dropped in the post consultation version.

Why oh why was this dropped. it would make life a lot easier. I use both(bus lane and advanced stop boxes) every day, but would prefer if it was legal

davoxx

Pataman wrote: »

Why oh why was this dropped. it would make life a lot easier. I use both(bus lane and advanced stop boxes) every day, but would prefer if it was legal

the cynic in me says: because it does not make money.

Jak O Shadows

Is it illegal to use advanced stop boxes? Oops

krustovski

im not a biker however i have a few biker friends,these proposols sound a bit silly to me,particuarly the parts issue,as someone said before more emphasis should go onto ppe than anything else,as a car driver i take extra care when i see a motorbike around me or in my mirrors,i would say that i spot motorcyclists quicker if they are wearing a high viz,look at it this way,who do you notice first at a distance,a garda in a high viz or a garda in blue uniform.there are plenty of bad motorcyclists as there is plenty of pure idiotic car and truck users on the road,and as for taking bikes seven or more years off the road in the climate were in,its the only thing keeping bike mechanics/shops/breakers/parts in business as people cant afford new bikes.it should be mandatory that ALL vehicles keep dimmed lights on at all times,it makes sense and its been proven to work.WHAT DISTURBS me most is these proposed regulations are from the franco/germanic dictatorship of europe,where do they stop.
Best of luck with any more protets that are planned,an idea might be go slows on the m50 and the likes at rush hour,and go slows in and around the dail buildings.another point that seems to phase the officials is that motorbikes take up less room,use half the of fuel and dont cause jams like cars,safe riding courses should be pushed more to get people onto bikes and out of guzzling cars.

BlackBlade

krustovski wrote: »

im not a biker however i have a few biker friends,these proposols sound a bit silly to me,particuarly the parts issue,as someone said before more emphasis should go onto ppe than anything else,as a car driver i take extra care when i see a motorbike around me or in my mirrors,i would say that i spot motorcyclists quicker if they are wearing a high viz,look at it this way,who do you notice first at a distance,a garda in a high viz or a garda in blue uniform.there are plenty of bad motorcyclists as there is plenty of pure idiotic car and truck users on the road,and as for taking bikes seven or more years off the road in the climate were in,its the only thing keeping bike mechanics/shops/breakers/parts in business as people cant afford new bikes.it should be mandatory that ALL vehicles keep dimmed lights on at all times,it makes sense and its been proven to work.WHAT DISTURBS me most is these proposed regulations are from the franco/germanic dictatorship of europe,where do they stop.
Best of luck with any more protets that are planned,an idea might be go slows on the m50 and the likes at rush hour,and go slows in and around the dail buildings.another point that seems to phase the officials is that motorbikes take up less room,use half the of fuel and dont cause jams like cars,safe riding courses should be pushed more to get people onto bikes and out of guzzling cars.

I just wish more car drivers see it the way you do

daenerysstormborn3

Next protest -

http://www.magireland.org/2011/news-...-29th-october/ - to Dail Eireann

http://www.magireland.org/2011/news-media/protest-rsa-offices-fri-28th-oct/ - to RSA Offices in Ballina, Co. Mayo

Richard tea

Not sure if this protest was part of the same thing ( new EU law )

SaoriseBiker

Richard tea wrote: »

Not sure if this protest was part of the same thing ( new EU law )

Looks like these proposals from the EU were more of a rumor at this stage.

goldie fish

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Looks like these proposals from the EU were more of a rumor at this stage.

Too many mixed messages.

mr chips

No, the proposals definitely weren't and still definitely aren't merely a rumour, they are very real and some of them will definitely be adopted. Thanks to a lot of campaigning, letter-writing and the likes of the above protest, the UK government has now objected to some of the more ludicrous aspects of this, based on the fact that some of the proposals are based on absolutely zero evidence - but the actual EU vote has only been put back, not dispensed with.

I live in NI and so would be affected by the UK's decisions on whether to adopt these proposals - I signed up to get regular updates from Paddy Tyson of MAG in England about this and I don't mind posting a few of them here if people are interested (and assuming it's not a problem for the moderators of this board), but I should warn you that some of them are a long enough read!

goldie fish

mr chips wrote: »

No, the proposals definitely weren't and still definitely aren't merely a rumour, they are very real and some of them will definitely be adopted. Thanks to a lot of campaigning, letter-writing and the likes of the above protest, the UK government has now objected to some of the more ludicrous aspects of this, based on the fact that some of the proposals are based on absolutely zero evidence - but the actual EU vote has only been put back, not dispensed with.

I live in NI and so would be affected by the UK's decisions on whether to adopt these proposals - I signed up to get regular updates from Paddy Tyson of MAG in England about this and I don't mind posting a few of them here if people are interested (and assuming it's not a problem for the moderators of this board), but I should warn you that some of them are a long enough read!

With respect, the legislation in NI is different to that here, The UK laws regarding motorcycles are different too. Putting information that is designed for the UK would only cause further confusion here.
Best sticking to what FEMA or MAG ireland are saying.
This is the current message about type approval.

Did you know that Anti-tamper/Article 18:

• Will only apply to NEW models brought to the market AFTER the regulations come in.
• Will NOT apply to current models for sale in dealers showrooms or models that have already been type approved.
• Will NOT affect the bike you own and ride right now.
• Will NOT apply to Category A bikes (those you can ride on a full unrestricted license).
• Will NOT prevent you modifying your bike or using aftermarket parts.
• Will NOT mean an end to custom bikes or one-off builds.

Furthermore, Article 18(a) which would have required qualified inspection of modifications has been dropped entirely.

MAG Ireland recognises that there are many more aspects to the proposals besides anti-tampering such as the Delegated Acts, ABS, OBD, Emissions and so on. All of these issues continue to be discussed at EU level and we continue to keep a watching brief on them via FEMA.
So far there is little to report and nothing we’ve seen to date would justify the enormous resources needed to stage a full-on mass public demonstration.
In fact, some of our own home grown legislation may yet prove far more toxic to biking as we know it than anything being fought over in Brussels. More on that in a future post.

Keep your powder dry. There may be more important battles ahead. Penalty points being a good example. It seems us motorcyclists speed everywhere and die more, and we should be treated the same as a Learner driver in a car because of this "fact".

carsQhere

goldie fish wrote: »

Keep your powder dry. There may be more important battles ahead. Penalty points being a good example. It seems us motorcyclists speed everywhere and die more, and we should be treated the same as a Learner driver in a car because of this "fact".

Formal response from MAG on the double points for bikers suggestion:
http://www.magireland.org/2012/news-media/mag-ireland-response-to-penalty-points-review/

daenerysstormborn3

Absolutely ludicrous to suggest that all bikers be treated the same as novice drivers - no other group of road users are subjected to this kind of targetting. They lump us into the same categories as cyclists and pedestrians, "vulnerable road users", but bikers are the only ones that are increasingly put under the spotlight with new regulations and proposals being implemented without any interaction with our representatives. There appears to be no efforts made by any group to increase the awareness of pedestrians and cyclists to make their road use safer.

For once, I would like to see the people/groups putting forward these proposals to use up-to-date accurate data to back up their proposals to make them more understandable and reasonable for everyone. Needless to say, they have no data to back up their claim that people on bikes speed more or less than any other road users, the same way they can't say car drivers speed more or less than any other road users.

Pedro K

I sent the following e-mail to the sitting TDs in my constituency.

"Dear xxxx

I am writing to express my total disgust at the recent publication of the review to the penalty point system. In particular, section 3.2.4.4, in which it is suggested that motorcyclists can be treated differently, akin to novice drivers, with more penalty points for the same offences as those driving cars.

I do welcome many of the proposals in this review, but the section mentioned above is nothing more than an attack on motorcyclists, despite the fact that the vast majority of motorcycle accidents involving another vehicle are caused by the driver of the other vehicle failing to observe right of way.

http://www.accident-claims-ireland.info/motorcycle_accidents.html

Yes, motorcyclists are indeed disproportionately represented in the death figures, but the way to fix this is not by penalising the motorcyclists who are not at fault the majority of the time. By this logic, maybe we should give travellers longer sentences in prison, as they are disproportionately represented in the prison figures.

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aiths2010/TR2/AITHS2010_TechnicalReport2_HR_PartC.pdf?direct=1

I am, as you've probably guessed, a motorcyclist, and having jumped through the various hoops that have been put in place to get on the road on a motorcycle (which I don't disagree with, more training is a good thing) I find it disgraceful that you would even consider punishing us further. Especially considering motorcyclists are far more likely to undertake further training, having passed their tests, than car drivers.

xxxx, I am a constituent of yours, and have provided my name and address below for your records. I have also CC'd Leo Varadkar to this mail and can assure you both that if this attack on motorcyclists goes ahead, you will face huge protests and neither my fellow motorcyclists or I will EVER vote xxxx again.

I also encourage you to read MAG's detailed response to the review;
http://www.magireland.org/2012/news-media/mag-ireland-response-to-penalty-points-review/

Yours sincerely"

mr chips

goldie fish wrote: »

With respect, the legislation in NI is different to that here, The UK laws regarding motorcycles are different too. Putting information that is designed for the UK would only cause further confusion here.
Best sticking to what FEMA or MAG ireland are saying.

Yep, I appreciate that - I was responding to the comment about the proposals being "more of a rumour" and youtube vid about demonstrations that took place in the UK. It's also why I mentioned that I'm in NI as opposed to the south, as I'm conscious that the laws will not be implemented the same way here as in the 26 counties.

However I should point out that the EU proposals are just that - EU-wide. It's down to each government to adopt as many or as few of them as they see fit. It seems to me that the UK campaign has been more successful in getting the legislators in Westminster to listen to riders than than those in Leinster House. Must admit I find the MAG Ireland approach of "nothing to worry about yet" somewhat concerning, as this will proceed apace unless action is taken to kill it before it goes live, as it were.

I find the following attempt at reassurance particularly worrying - "The new proposals ... will only apply to NEW models brought to the market AFTER the regulations come in."
This seems incredibly short-sighted to me. This proposal, if passed, will still spell the death of custom biking within the space of 5-10 years.

mr chips

Sorry for replying to my own post, but I just got this email from Paddy Tyson of MAG UK. While he makes a couple of UK-specific references, the core information is relevant to bikers across Europe so I thought it worth sharing here.

"If you've been on this mailing list for a while, you'll be aware that one of the issues MAG has with the proposed EU Type Approval regulation, is what are called the delegated acts.

Because there are so many new laws coming from Europe, EU Parliamentarians really haven't time to look at the details of them (meeting in session as they do, only about 6 days in each month).

As part of the Lisbon Treaty which came into force December 2009, more technical parts of regulations could be included in the Delegated Acts, or parts of the legislation which is delegated to the technocrats, who can continue to write them after the democratic process has ended as they have more time then.

Our concern is that there isn't really any procedure, and certainly no timetabling available, for these delegated acts to be scrutinised by Parliament later. I know many MEPs say that they have the power, but when we've pressed them on the specifics, I haven't yet found one who's been able to tell me how, in practise, that would happen.

So why is this email entitled 'more good news..'?

Well we've just learnt, that after an EU Commission/Parliament/Council (that's the national governments) meeting at the start of this week, all the specifics of article 52 in the regulation, are now to be removed from delegated acts and will become what are known as 'implementing measures'. Bear with me, this gets good in a minute.

Article 52 is the bit of the regulation that wanted to ban any after market component, system, or technical unit which may alter performance or emissions on a bike. The list of what components were to be specifically effected was to be in a delegated act, meaning we couldn't see the list and couldn't try to alter what may be on it, until it was too late.

This week, that list has been removed from the hands of the technocrats and placed instead, in the hands of our DfT and accountable EU Parliamentarians. Yes, feel free to raise a pint this weekend.

All the campaigning, every letter you've written and the demos we've had in September and last week, when we estimated 10,000 rode across the country, is making a difference. The parliamentary vote is now timetabled for October 25th 2012 having been put back again.
We may not win everything, but bikes over 47bhp are now being exempted from the anti-modification element of this regulation and we will continue to fight for the best deal for riders, so thanks for being a part of it.

Paddy"

Pedro K

Brian Hayes's reply to my mail;

Dear Peter,

Many thanks for your e-mail. I appreciate the time you took to write to me on this matter.

I have read your e-mail and I have done some research of my own on the matter. I thank you for the links provided. I can understand you annoyance at the section 3.2.4.4. To people who are safe, trust worthy motor cycle drivers, it must be very annoying.

I would say that the motive behind this report is not to penalise motorcyclists, but to make sure that we have regulation of driving on our roads that ensures the safety of every road user. Ireland has had a very bad experience in terms of road deaths and the work carried out to rectify this must be welcomed. This review is apart of strengthening road safety in Ireland.

I have no problem communicating, directly to Minister Varadkar, your opinions on this matter. I shall let him know also of the views of MAG. Once again many thanks for your e-mail.

Yours sincerely,

Brian Hayes TD Minister of State

And my subsequent reply to that;

Hi Brian.

Thank you very much for your reply.

You say you think the motive behind the review is not to penalise motorcyclists. While that may be true, regardless of it's motive, that is exactly what the review is doing.

I do agree with many of the proposals, for instance the increase of points for using a handheld phone. I also welcome any proposal that will improve road safety.

However, as evidenced by the statistics I linked to in the original mail, 70% of motorcycle accidents involving another vehicle are not the fault of the motorcyclist.

Giving motorcyclists double points for the same offences as car drivers will not stop car drivers pulling out from sideroads with inadequate observation or changing lanes without checking their blind spot. To suggest it would is simply ludicrous and as such, double points won't stop the motorcyclists being wiped out by the car driver who hasn't looked.

Surely the way forward is further driver training for car drivers, and I say this as a car and motorcycle driver who has undertaken advanced driving and skid control courses for the car, and will be taking advanced rider training for the bike.

The review is a direct attack on motorcyclists, no matter what way it is approached, and it will not have any bearing on motorcycle deaths, which have been falling steadily over the last number of years anyway, largely due to the after test training riders undertake.

I'll ask you this, if 70% of our accidents are caused by a car driver not observing our right of way, how will giving us increased penalties bring this number down, or indeed improve our safety?

Thanks again for your reply and thank you for communicating my view to minister Varadkar. I hope he replies too. I can't stress how strongly I feel about this issue, and just how wrong I think the review has gotten this section.

Regards