*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

Medicine333

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I do think interviews should be considered, but its hard to completely guarantee that there would be no bias. 4000 applicants isn't a huge number if you're looking at the UK and Australia. The interviewers would need to be well capable of picking out the genuine applicants from the prep course trainees, I don't know how easy that would be to do.



I won't make much comment on this, but imo having "people in high places" can be abused at times.

I am not sure what you're suggesting here, but the message I'm getting from your comment is that people who do the prep courses aren't 'genuine' and need to be deciphered from students who do not do those courses. I think that is a dreadfully unfair comment, and one which is offensive to me.

Also, it's interesting that lots of people make that comment, 'it's unfair that people are doing courses' etc. because it is an admission that the HPAT can be studied for. Now, I don't know your opinion on the matter, but I assume you believe that the HPAT isn't doing its supposed job either?

hollingr

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I do think interviews should be considered, but its hard to completely guarantee that there would be no bias. 4000 applicants isn't a huge number if you're looking at the UK and Australia. The interviewers would need to be well capable of picking out the genuine applicants from the prep course trainees, I don't know how easy that would be to do.

I won't make much comment on this, but imo having "people in high places" can be abused at times.

I had an interview last year for mature entry where it just so happened that my dad knew well one of the people who was interviewing me. She did not participate in the discussions on my mark when there was disagreement on my interview score to make sure there was no bias. Needless to say I did not get a place last year.

No doubt her feeling forced to say nothing went against me, if she didn't know me at all she could have argued in my defence if she thought I was a good candidate, instead there was an empty space! Not to mention the possibility that other interview panel were thinking I was being given preferential treatment and purposely bringing me down as a result.

It can go both ways..

Somalion

finality wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, how would the HPAT make a difference in that respect over leaving cert alone? That's always been a concern.

Interviews aren't necessarily going to change that, either. Nobody is going to go into an interview and say "oh I'm only interested in the money". People who want to study medicine are generally very intelligent and know what an interviewer wants to hear.

You're right, I shouldn't have said it has developed it. It's always been there. The HPAT just hasn't alleviated it at all. While interviews are open to abuse, I definitely think that they are, I think they can also be used to greater effect. But you're right that they could be prepared for. Volunteer work is different though.

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

I had an interview last year for mature entry where it just so happened that my dad knew well one of the people who was interviewing me. She did not participate in the discussions on my mark when there was disagreement on my interview score to make sure there was no bias. Needless to say I did not get a place last year.

No doubt her feeling forced to say nothing went against me, if she didn't know me at all she could have argued in my defence if she thought I was a good candidate, instead there was an empty space! Not to mention the possibility that other interview panel were thinking I was being given preferential treatment and purposely bringing me down as a result.

It can go both ways..

I'm not clear on the mature entry into Medicine-don't you have to sit the GAMSAT? How did you find it? If I don't get Medicine, I'll have to consider this option.

hollingr

Medicine333 wrote: »

I'm not clear on the mature entry into Medicine-don't you have to sit the GAMSAT? How did you find it? If I don't get Medicine, I'll have to consider this option.

No that's graduate entry, slightly different. I got a 2.2 in my primary degree (engineering) so I was not eligible for the gamsat.. don't get me started on why I think that the 2.1 limit is crazy!

Mature entry takes into account your life experience, your work experience, as well as academic abilities. There are 15 places in most colleges for mature entry, and you have to be over 23 to apply.

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

No that's graduate entry, slightly different. I got a 2.2 in my primary degree (engineering) so I was not eligible for the gamsat.. don't get me started on why I think that the 2.1 limit is crazy!

Mature entry takes into account your life experience, your work experience, as well as academic abilities. There are 15 places in most colleges for mature entry, and you have to be over 23 to apply.

I don't know why I amn't properly informed on this!:p It seems like a good way, but it was unfortunate that your interview was affected.

QueenOfLeon

Somalion wrote: »

I suppose with the numbers applying would it be feasible to get that many in to shadow for even just a few days or a week?

If it was actually introduced, I don't think that'd be a huge problem. As well as hospitals, you've got nursing homes, convalescence/recovery hospitals and other care facilities, which may be an even better experience as instead of the rush of a busy A&E, you've got the groundwork of actually looking after/cleaning up/feeding/helping patients.

Medicine333 wrote: »

I am not sure what you're suggesting here, but the message I'm getting from your comment is that people who do the prep courses aren't 'genuine' and need to be deciphered from students who do not do those courses. I think that is a dreadfully unfair comment, and one which is offensive to me.

Sorry if that came across from my comment, that's not what I mean - and I'm referring to the potential "Interview prep courses", not the current HPAT ones.

I mean that one person could go into the interview (having done the prep course or not, irrelevant for this person), who really really wants to do medicine, who would make a brilliant doctor as they have the combination of being able to study and retain information, and actually caring about patients, wanting to help them, etc etc.

Then you have another applicant, who wants to do medicine for the money and status (and believe me, I'm not generalising, there are people who do it just for these reasons), who has been handed the information that will get them into medicine by the prep course (or parents, teachers), will reel it all off with a nice smile, and away they go.

Is there any way of telling that person number 1 is a genuinely "better" person for the job?

I'm not saying everyone who does a prep course should be dismissed as someone who isn't genuine, I'm saying it would be difficult for interviewers to decide who is genuinely a caring person, and who is telling the interviewers what they want to hear. This doesn't mean people who did a prep course vs people who didn't, sorry if it came across that way.

Medicine333 wrote: »

Also, it's interesting that lots of people make that comment, 'it's unfair that people are doing courses' etc. because it is an admission that the HPAT can be studied for. Now, I don't know your opinion on the matter, but I assume you believe that the HPAT isn't doing its supposed job either?

I don't think I said that its unfair that people are doing courses. Personally, I don't believe that courses are that effective, but that's a whole different argument! People can go to whatever means they like to optimise their performance.

I'm undecided on whether or not the HPAT does its supposed job. I think the fact that it allows people who don't hit >550 into medicine is an advantage in itself, as 600 points in the LC certainly doesn't guarantee a good doctor. Whether or not it makes better doctors, I suppose, remains to be seen.

reznov

I'm definitely in agreement with Medicine3 and Somalion regarding the HPAT. Personally, I'd love for the HPAT to go! It is definitely yet another exam in which you are able to improve, just as any written test. Interviews, I do not agree with due to potential bias. Everyone is in the same boat with standardized tests as no third party holds influence.
Perhaps trips to the hospital should be organized for those who wish to apply for medicine, so they can observe a usual doctor's shift. I do understand it is something that practically cannot occur, as no hospital would agree to it. Nevertheless, it would show the hardships of a doctor and may put off a large proportion of students who may not be able to handle it. Not many volunteer to work in hospitals or medical institutions unfortunately and as a result many do not realize the hardships involved in social interaction with stressed patients. It's difficult to choose a career unless you've experienced at least some aspect of it.
Coming back to the idea of candidate selection, what is the definition of smart and capable? If exams do not judge true intelligence, then what does? IQ tests are berated as inadequate measures also! True, the LC is regurgitation, but even then the percentage of students obtaining a perfect 600 points is extremely low. So maybe individual universities should set entry examinations for each course to which students apply to? But that would ruin the beauty of opening the brown envelope with wringing hands in August :P

0mega

When was the HPAT test introduced?

QueenOfLeon

0mega wrote: »

When was the HPAT test introduced?

First ones were the 2009 LC'ers!

NoHarm1994

Does anyone know if the results are released at 00.00 on the 30th, or is it during the day? I might have to stay up past my bed time and just want to give the mother a heads up. (Y)

hollingr

here's when I got the email last year..

from: HPAT-Ireland Office hpat-ireland@acer.edu.au
date: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 12:50 AM
subject: HPAT-Ireland Result Notice

DepoProvera

Anyone here not opening them until after the LC? Loads of people I know say they are.. I just couldn't :L

drbtrenier

DepoProvera wrote: »

Anyone here not opening them until after the LC? Loads of people I know say they are.. I just couldn't :L

Oh, definitely not, couldn't do it at all! Not knowing would be far more of a distraction, to me anyway, than knowing that I hadn't got medicine!

jumpguy

finality wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, how would the HPAT make a difference in that respect over leaving cert alone? That's always been a concern.

Rather oddly, I find that a lot of very intelligent students sit the LC and can break 550 no bother, but don't really make it into the 580+ range. They simply don't do the work, and the higher you want to climb points-wise the steeper the workload. Obviously, there are probably as many exceptions to that rule as those who follow it, and that's just a casual observation of my own. :pac:

I don't think that's a major issue though. I've only noticed a very small amount of people like that in medicine (intelligent but with very, very poor social skills), and proportionally to the size of the overall cohort I'd say it's an very small percentage of people who would be unsuitable in that regard. All the same, it costs the state a ridiculous amount to train these people, so we really want to make sure we're getting in the most suitable candidates.

The major issue, in my opinion, is the major advantage repeat-HPAT candidates have over first-time candidates. The HPAT has only exacerbated the long-existing problem of first-time candidates having the odds stacked against them. Yes, the people who can afford grinds, HPAT courses and repeating are almost always going to have some advantage no matter what system is implemented. But we should strive to find a system that instead of favouring the rich, favours the best potential doctors in the cohort. The current one is nowhere near that ideal.

hollingr

1st time candidates will always have the odds stacked against them no matter what the system, unless the system changed to a "you have one shot only to get in" which would be ludicrous.

The willingness of motivated people to try again and again until they get in will of course give them an advantage over people who are making a first attempt.

Even if you had interviews, aptitude test, l.c, and anything else you can think of to add in, those having a second bite will have experience on their side.

jumpguy

hollingr wrote: »

1st time candidates will always have the odds stacked against them no matter what the system, unless the system changed to a "you have one shot only to get in" which would be ludicrous.

Even if you had interviews, aptitude test, l.c, and anything else you can think of to add in, those having a second bite will have experience on their side.

It is possible to implement an extra hurdle for repeats to level the playing field with first-timers. That could be as simple as being asked in an interview "so, you didn't get into medicine last year for reason x and y. What has changed?" or having a weighting against them in test scores (which would definitely be controversial.)

Regardless, I think it's fair to say the system at the moment is poor at best.

aki

Just wondering how some of you think you faired???

I'll be doing it next year..... hpat ireland is that the best course there is???
Can you purchase it now?

Also, a friend who scored 202 in 2009 told me he did a lot of sudoku along with other past papers.

Stalin and rugby

hollingr wrote: »

1st time candidates will always have the odds stacked against them no matter what the system, unless the system changed to a "you have one shot only to get in" which would be ludicrous.

The willingness of motivated people to try again and again until they get in will of course give them an advantage over people who are making a first attempt.

Even if you had interviews, aptitude test, l.c, and anything else you can think of to add in, those having a second bite will have experience on their side.

I disagree

That's the way it's done in England, colleges over there don't accept repeat A level students and I'm all for it. You get one chance, if you were too much of a fool/uncertain/lazy at a younger age that's your problem you can wait until you're a mature student and re-apply then. Rough but I think that's fair:D

e1994

anyone know what date the hpat results are out??? :P

SugarMuffin

Hello, I'm an English student and I'm completely confused about all things HPAT. Please could someone explain to me:
1. 'when I should register for the HPAT for a 2013 entry into medical school?'

2. 'Where do I get hold of the ACER practice test? it says on their website that there are none available for purchase'

3. 'What is the scoring system for the HPAT'

4. 'What would be the best course to take for preparation and how do I apply for it?'.

Hope somebody replies! (THANKS IN ADVANCE)

hollingr

aki wrote: »

Just wondering how some of you think you faired???

I'll be doing it next year..... hpat ireland is that the best course there is???
Can you purchase it now?

Also, a friend who scored 202 in 2009 told me he did a lot of sudoku along with other past papers.

I thought the med-entry online course was a great and abundant resource of practise material, but until I see my results I can't say for sure how much of a difference it will have made for me.

Sudoku, speed reading, reading books written in a very emotive style, practise drills specific to each section (there is actually only a handful of question types they use for each section!), learning to read every type of graph you can possibly imagine, etc etc..... Every little helps!


@stalin: try affording mature entry medicine and daily living costs, when from a non-wealthy or non-parent supported background - if you think the rich to poor ratio in medicine is bad now, one shot entry would make it one hell of a lot worse.

What you're talking about would also involve a radical overhaul of the entire system, our set up is very different to how things operate in the UK. It's not nearly as simple as you think.

QueenOfLeon

SugarMuffin wrote: »

Hello, I'm an English student and I'm completely confused about all things HPAT. Please could someone explain to me:
1. 'when I should register for the HPAT for a 2013 entry into medical school?'

Registration usually opens around November for the test the following February.

SugarMuffin wrote: »

2. 'Where do I get hold of the ACER practice test? it says on their website that there are none available for purchase'

The HPAT for this year was just done fairly recently so they won't be releasing the practice materials for next year for a while yet. Keep an eye on the website, I can't remember when I got it but it was definitely during the school year (October/November or so).

SugarMuffin wrote: »

3. 'What is the scoring system for the HPAT'

This is not released by ACER at any stage. The hpat website will give you all the layouts and information you need but the scoring system can only be guessed at at best. What's generally understood is that there are different weightings for each question depending on the results from all the candidates in that sitting. Questions you answer correctly that only a small proportion of candidates get right would be worth more than a question answered well by everyone.

SugarMuffin wrote: »

4. 'What would be the best course to take for preparation and how do I apply for it?'.

According to ACER, the test cannot be prepared for, however you'll see from this thread and other sources that that is debatable. I didn't do a course so I can't help you there. If you read back through this thread there's plenty of information and experience from this year's applicants.

DepoProvera

Ughhh I'm so burnt out Done so much work consistently from day 1 but I've done little to none this week. Sick of doing all of these questions I've done beforeeee rarwwrrr.. Here's hoping these results will give me a kick up the backside either way they go. Either I'll be scrambling to get a course I want to do that isn't medicine or going crazy knowing that it is actually in reach :L

finality

Only two weeks til the results

Random_Person

e1994 wrote: »

anyone know what date the hpat results are out??? :P

Monday April 30th

DepoProvera

Soooooo longg

Flabangav

Random_Person wrote: »

Monday April 30th

I thought it was Wednesday April 25th?

hollingr

was supposed to be, a bunch of whiny leaving c'ers must have complained because they have oral exams that day so they moved it to the 30th!

DepoProvera

Could've just delayed opening them, da cuntz