*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

0mega

Hi guys, I'm in 5th year at the moment and will be doing the HPAT next year.

What would you guys recommend for me to start doing for preparation, as it would seem it's clearly important

jumpguy

0mega wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm in 5th year at the moment and will be doing the HPAT next year.

What would you guys recommend for me to start doing for preparation, as it would seem it's clearly important

I'd hold your horses a while, I would say the HPAT is in for a major overhaul once this year's crowd get their results. I hope it will be something significant and not just a provision that means you cannot repeat your HPAT without also repeating your LC on the same year (I've heard a rumour that that may be it)...

hollingr

that wouldn't make too much sense.. one of the main points of the hpat was to stop people having to repeat the leaving cert over and over again in order to obtain maximum points!

@omega: wouldn't hurt to practise things like speed reading, logic puzzles, doing sudoku's and crosswords even. There's plenty of time for specific prep as long as you start early in 6th year (after getting wind of any news or changes that may be coming...)

Slow Show

Yeah but a fair few people are going to get in this year without repeating the LC thanks to being able to re-apply and get 25 more points for honours maths, which will make a huge difference for people on 520/530, so it makes a bit of sense in trying to reduce point inflation.

I don't think it'd be the worst thing ever to be honest, although it's easy for me to say now - I'd say it'd be a major pain if you miss out by like one point, and it's down to the HPAT, not the Leaving Cert. But as it is, people are just re-applying and doing the HPAT, are able to focus on that more than your average student, and as a result are doing much better in it. It's fairly bad for repeats but it'd keep the points down, make the HPAT not look like such an epic failure, and it'd make it a bit more achievable for first time LCers to get in. Still a bit silly though.

hollingr

Depends on how you look at it I suppose - and more importantly how the policy makers look at it.

Personally I think the most important thing is not how difficult it is to get in, it's more about getting "best" candidates who will make the best doctors in. No matter what system they use a lot of great, highly intelligent, well rounded, bright young people will need to try a few times to get in - it is just that competitive; even interviews wouldn't change that. And of course repeat students will bump up the scores, just like they did with the leaving cert points..

HPAT + L.C, even with it's flaws, will still put a broader spectrum of candidates through than the leaving cert alone did. Also the HPAT allows people to start other courses and get on with life rather than have to go over the stress of the leaving cert again - wasting another year of life at rote learning to get an extra few points in the l.c seems pretty counter-productive to me.

Stalin and rugby

14,711 applicants for medicine this year with 3,719 having it down as their first choice :eek:

hollingr

where's those figures from? do u know how that compares to the last few years?

Just Like Heaven

I'LL FITE YOU ALL!

Just Like Heaven

hollingr wrote: »

where's those figures from? do u know how that compares to the last few years?

cao. Up 4% ish from last year on total applicants and up 4% ish on 1st choice. Almost exactly the same as it was 2 years ago though.

people make a deal over it, but 4 or 5% difference on the cao is negligable.

Stalin and rugby

hollingr wrote: »

where's those figures from? do u know how that compares to the last few years?

Here it is, statistics for the past few years

http://www2.cao.ie/app_stats/pdf/AppStats01Feb2012.pdf

eyescreamcone

Stalin and rugby wrote: »

14,711 applicants for medicine this year with 3,719 having it down as their first choice :eek:

Not many courses require more points than Med so if you don't have it down as a first choice you are very unlikely to get it as a second or lower choice in my opinion.
It's a shoot out between the 3719

Just Like Heaven

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Not many courses require more points than Med so if you don't have it down as a first choice you are very unlikely to get it as a second or lower choice in my opinion.
It's a shoot out between the 3719

Yeah it's very few but there are always a few that do get in. Generally people who wanted dentistry. vet etc.

jumpguy

fewtinsoffroth wrote: »

cao. Up 4% ish from last year on total applicants and up 4% ish on 1st choice. Almost exactly the same as it was 2 years ago though.

people make a deal over it, but 4 or 5% difference on the cao is negligable.

It's not negligible at all, if you're borderline that 4/5% increase will be a big deal. It'd probably correspond to 3/4 point increase (ignoring the possibility the HPAT scores will be inflated even more again this year and the 25 bonus points for maths.)

hollingr wrote: »

that wouldn't make too much sense.. one of the main points of the hpat was to stop people having to repeat the leaving cert over and over again in order to obtain maximum points!

I don't think it was brought in to stop people repeating the LC, it was brought in so that people who couldn't afford to constantly go repeating the LC and pay for private tuition could get a shot. It was also definitely brought in to even up the male to female ratio in medicine. It has succeeded at the latter, and failed badly at the former. HEAR has done much more to balance up the socioeconomic distribution entering medicine than the HPAT has.

hollingr wrote: »

Personally I think the most important thing is not how difficult it is to get in, it's more about getting "best" candidates who will make the best doctors in. No matter what system they use a lot of great, highly intelligent, well rounded, bright young people will need to try a few times to get in - it is just that competitive; even interviews wouldn't change that. And of course repeat students will bump up the scores, just like they did with the leaving cert points.

If repeat students keep bumping up the points and especially if it's shown that expensive prep courses help you do better, then the HPAT will be seen to only help the wealthy/those with wealthy parents who can afford all the repeating and prep courses get in.

I am 100% in favour of change to the current system, it's grossly unfair that a first-time candidate trying to handle the LC and all that comes with it has to sit the HPAT against a huge amount of people who only had one goal all year - do well in the HPAT. I think making it so that one has to do the LC and HPAT on the same year though will mean an extraordinary amount of pressure on just one 2.5 hour exam, and will probably encourage even more people to buy expensive prep courses.

One 2.5 hour exam...an awful lot can go wrong for a good candidate on the day. The pressure is fairly massive. I don't think it'll do much for the mental health of young people.

hollingr

If you can't handle the pressure of the hpat exam you probably won't be able to handle the pressures of studying medicine either.. At least this way you can do something constructive with your time and further your education with science studies or some health related course.

As for the socio-economic aspect, I don't think the hpat ever claimed to address that. HEAR is the only shining light there. Also from what i've read, the gender balancing has gotten worse year on year since the girls are more committed to doing hpat study just like they are to the l.c at that age.

Even if interviews were brought in you could argue that wealthy kids can afford to do interview prep courses etc etc.. It's never going to be completely fair and people will do anything they can to get an edge.

jumpguy

hollingr wrote: »

If you can't handle the pressure of the hpat exam you probably won't be able to handle the pressures of studying medicine either.. At least this way you can do something constructive with your time and further your education with science studies or some health related course.

As for the socio-economic aspect, I don't think the hpat ever claimed to address that. HEAR is the only shining light there. Also from what i've read, the gender balancing has gotten worse year on year since the girls are more committed to doing hpat study just like they are to the l.c at that age.

Even if interviews were brought in you could argue that wealthy kids can afford to do interview prep courses etc etc.. It's never going to be completely fair and people will do anything they can to get an edge.

Not really, in medicine you'll be trained to deal with the pressures you'll face as a doctor. You'll also be older and hopefully wiser. As a student, not even most university exams are last-chance - you can repeat them in the summer. A major problem is that medabees go off to do different courses with the view they are only doing them for a year and don't wanna be there. They form a major drag on the class. I've heard this is one of the main reasons Human Health & Disease was brought in at TCD.

Kathleen Lynch, professor of equality studies in UCD said: "Not alone are the tests of doubtful value, they are also a new barrier for lower-income students.

"Proficiency on the tests requires practice and insider knowledge that is only available to those who can buy it."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-wants-to-scrap-test-for-medical-schools-3023897.html

I'd be very interested in reading where it says the gender balance has got worse - as all I've read is that it's been evened out. From my own experience in college, I can see the gender balance in medicine has most definitely been evened out.

Interviews - if they were fair (a big concern is that because we have a small country, many interviewers might know whose son/daughter is applying where and such...) would be ideal. Sure, you can prepare for interviews with needlessly expensive courses, but really a good personality, being a good communicator and displaying obvious dedication to being a good doctor should get anyone through. It'll never be completely fair, but it could be a hell of a lot fairer than the current HPAT/LC system or LC alone system.

(For the record, I think James Reilly is barking mad for suggesting a revert to the old LC system. Sure, it was probably better than this disastrous HPAT/LC system, but it doesn't mean it's the best we can achieve.)

hollingr

I mean gender balance gotten worse compared to how well it balanced things out in the first year of the hpat, not worse compared to l.c, it's probably still much better than the leaving cert alone but the point is it is becoming less effective as people begin to realise how well studying for the hpat can work, and girls just study better at that age, simple as.

As a student the final two years of the course are final - that's the end of the line, no repeats. You get a 'pass' degree if even, and can't practise medicine! So in comparison to that the hpat is pretty tame.

Of course people can mature/change a lot in the years it takes to get to that point, especially the lads!

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

I mean gender balance gotten worse compared to how well it balanced things out in the first year of the hpat, not worse compared to l.c, it's probably still much better than the leaving cert alone but the point is it is becoming less effective as people begin to realise how well studying for the hpat can work, and girls just study better at that age, simple as.

As a student the final two years of the course are final - that's the end of the line, no repeats. You get a 'pass' degree if even, and can't practise medicine! So in comparison to that the hpat is pretty tame.

Of course people can mature/change a lot in the years it takes to get to that point, especially the lads!

I've never heard of that before in my life. Maybe I'm wrong, but can you back that up, please?

jumpguy

hollingr wrote: »

I mean gender balance gotten worse compared to how well it balanced things out in the first year of the hpat, not worse compared to l.c, it's probably still much better than the leaving cert alone but the point is it is becoming less effective as people begin to realise how well studying for the hpat can work, and girls just study better at that age, simple as.

From my experience, the gender balance was still roughly 50:50 last year. No lies.

As a student the final two years of the course are final - that's the end of the line, no repeats. You get a 'pass' degree if even, and can't practise medicine! So in comparison to that the hpat is pretty tame.

I've never heard of this before. I can imagine practical aspects might not be repeatable but certainly I don't see why written exams wouldn't be. Perhaps someone (*cough*QueenOfLeon*cough*) could shed some light on this.

Stalin and rugby

I don't mind the gender ratio being 70:30 in favor of girls

hollingr

jumpguy wrote: »

From my experience, the gender balance was still roughly 50:50 last year. No lies.

I've never heard of this before. I can imagine practical aspects might not be repeatable but certainly I don't see why written exams wouldn't be. Perhaps someone (*cough*QueenOfLeon*cough*) could shed some light on this.

I did engineering, if you fail 4th year you cannot repeat - this is purely written exams. I know people that this happened to. Imagine you though you were going to get a low 2.2 degree - so you purposely fail because you didn't work hard enough, repeat final year to get a 1st

It's the same in medicine for final year, ask around! I know this for a fact because my dad is an examiner for medicine in RCSI and if you fail in final year there is no second chance. (2nd last year counts alot towards final year score so I include it with that)

edit: you can of course go back to 1st year and repeat from there!!

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

I did engineering, if you fail 4th year you cannot repeat - this is purely written exams. I know people that this happened to. Imagine you though you were going to get a low 2.2 degree - so you purposely fail because you didn't work hard enough, repeat final year to get a 1st

It's the same in medicine for final year, ask around! I know this for a fact because my dad is an examiner for medicine in RCSI and if you fail in final year there is no second chance. (2nd last year counts alot towards final year score so I include it with that)

edit: you can of course go back to 1st year and repeat from there!!

I'd appreciate some further back-up though, Hollingr. Oueen of Leon may hopefully shed some light on the matter. However, I don't believe that you cannot repeat in the final 2 years, as suggested in your original post.

jumpguy

hollingr wrote: »

I did engineering, if you fail 4th year you cannot repeat - this is purely written exams. I know people that this happened to. Imagine you though you were going to get a low 2.2 degree - so you purposely fail because you didn't work hard enough, repeat final year to get a 1st

It's the same in medicine for final year, ask around! I know this for a fact because my dad is an examiner for medicine in RCSI and if you fail in final year there is no second chance. (2nd last year counts alot towards final year score so I include it with that)

edit: you can of course go back to 1st year and repeat from there!!

Fair enough, lets go with the assumption you can't repeat exams in the last 2 years. Everyone in medicine has the same access to the materials needed to prepare for that exam. The exam will be based on stuff you've learned, and not questionable, poxy, puzzle-like questions that there is mixed scientific evidence about what exactly it tests. There are no expensive prep courses that put some people at an advantage and leave other people who can't afford them at a disadvantage. Nobody can repeat the med exams, whereas the wealthy can most easily afford to repeat the LC/HPAT. They are not comparable. At that stage, the student is also probably 21/22/23, and not a 17 year old kid who has never sat an exam like the HPAT before.

Medicine333

Unquestionably, the notion that a student who cannot cope with the HPAT won't be able to cope with Medical exams, is wrong. As Jumpguy has pointed out, the level of maturity of a 17 year-old in comparison to a 20+ year-old is stark.

However, the main difference is simply the area of examination itself. The HPAT is based on unlearned material, Medicine is the opposite. Additionally, the student is focused on Medicine as a career, is surrounded by medical study material and there are many, not just one exam.

hollingr

Sorry, I probably didn't go into enough detail in my initial post opening a can of worms, didn't want to get into an in depth discussion about how passing/failing works.

I'm sure you can repeat the 2nd last year but you still only get a pass mark - i.e if you repeat and get 1.1 it still only would count as a 2.2 on your grades.


hpat is "supposed" to be based on unlearnt material but i can tell you questions came up this year that I had seen before.


Also I'm not arguing about the difference between 17yr olds and 21 yr olds, I already agreed with you on that..

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

Sorry, I probably didn't go into enough detail in my initial post opening a can of worms, didn't want to get into an in depth discussion about how passing/failing works.

I'm sure you can repeat the 2nd last year but you still only get a pass mark - i.e if you repeat and get 1.1 it still only would count as a 2.2 on your grades.


hpat is "supposed" to be based on unlearnt material but i can tell you questions came up this year that I had seen before.

Lol, I know the feeling! Happens to me anytime I post on boards, so I rarely do, because anytime I post something which seems to me to be completely innocent, a big fight breaks loose! At which point, I usually quietly leave the thread:p

I still would be in disagreement with you, Hollingr, with regards to repeating/failing etc.

With regards to the HPAT, and it being a tell-tale sign that a student wouldn't be able to cope with Medicine if she/he can't cope with the HPAT, I also disagree with ya-but sure, Ní lia ná duine gan tuairim, mar a deirtear:) Although, as for repeating questions on the HPAT, no candidate will remember the answer or the reasoning even behind a question out of 110 that appeared 12 months before. I certainly didn't!

hollingr

runaway comments lead to runaway posters!



I'm sure there's plenty of students who would find the hpat too stressful that would be better able to cope by the time they reach 20-something. Are they going to be better at coping than people who could cope at 17 though?

that's my point really!

Mr.Fun

Excuse me all but I was 16 sitting the hpat this year and my level of maturity was very good with regards the HPAT. Kept calm and didnt panic

drbtrenier

hollingr wrote: »

runaway comments lead to runaway posters!



I'm sure there's plenty of students who would find the hpat too stressful that would be better able to cope by the time they reach 20-something. Are they going to be better at coping than people who could cope at 17 though?

that's my point really!

Ah, I now get your point hollingr! I was considering posting to disagree with your point about not being able to cope with the HPAT being a sign of not being able to cope with medicine, but I kinda get what you're saying now. Generally I think people who are able to cope already at 16/17/18 are going to be the ones who will able to cope even better at 20+. Of course, a lot of people will gain life skills and experience in that space of time and will probably be able to cope better than at 17, but I think coping at that age is a sign that you definitely should be able to at 20+.
Saying that though, there's an exception to every rule!

hollingr

Mr.Fun wrote: »

Excuse me all but I was 16 sitting the hpat this year and my level of maturity was very good with regards the HPAT. Kept calm and didnt panic

I'm sure there was plenty just like you too.

I know a girl who was 19 sitting the hpat last year, broke down crying right before the exam, had a bit of a panic attack, but soldiered on through and did well enough to get in.

It's really not worth arguing about any of this stuff it's such a grey area, regret posting now!!

Medicine333

hollingr wrote: »

I'm sure there was plenty just like you too.

I know a girl who was 19 sitting the hpat last year, broke down crying right before the exam, had a bit of a panic attack, but soldiered on through and did well enough to get in.

It's really not worth arguing about any of this stuff it's such a grey area, regret posting now!!

I know the feeling. I'm too tired to argue. Peace out!:)